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Stock Temp Gauge Questions
#1360506
12/29/12 11:00 AM
12/29/12 11:00 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Guys, I finally have my gauges back from Instrument Specialties and got everything hooked up. However I wanted to run something by the gurus here to see if I have a problem or not. I noticed that when the motor is warming up, it gets just about pegged to the "H" on the gauge before the t-stat opens. The T-stat is a stock temp (195) I believe. Once it opens, the temp gauge drops almost immediately to the top of the normal range. Is this how the factory intended it? Is 195 really the top of the gauge where the motor is "overheating"? This seems a bit low to me. I am assuming the gauges are calibrated correctly as they just got back from the "pros". Enginer harness is brand new repro and the the sender itself was replaced about 5 years ago but has very little actual runtime on it. I havent run the car much past warm up and some very short drives (been battling another issue) but seems in cool weather (50-60 dgerees) the motor seems to stay near the hi side of the normal range on the gauge. I know I can swap in a 180 t-stat which I may do later but I don't want to mess with it if I don't have a problem... Thoughts? Ideas? 
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360510
12/29/12 03:49 PM
12/29/12 03:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,999
Salem
Grizzly
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Salem
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195 should leave you somewhere in normal operating range. Even on the new vehicles with 195's the needle has an awful long ways to go to hit "H". I've gone from a 180 to 190 and the needle only changed 1 needle width position at the most. It almost sounds like the gauge re-builder might have the temp "clocked" in the wrong position. Boil a cup of water in your microwave and put the sending unit in it and see where it's at. Invest a few dollars into an after market gauge with numbers and give things a double-check. Might be saving yourself a cracked head/block if the gauge re-build is spot-on. 
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: terzmo]
#1360511
12/29/12 04:07 PM
12/29/12 04:07 PM
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North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
what is top of normal range ??? I get ALOT of flak about old cars running temps....I guess driving them since the early 60's doesn't count with some BUT..old cars don't like high temps like new can handle. When My gauge gets to 200, I start to worry...at 210...I'm getting ready to shut it down. Optimum temp for the old cars is about 185 plus or minus a bit. A t stat is only going to restrict flow at temps under it's rating. I would never run a 195 in an old car...180 is the most and I prefer a 170 as I want coolant circulating as soon as possible. In the 50's...here in WNY, people would actualy remove the stat in the summer. The stat only gets a car to warm the block faster so people can get heat in cold weather sooner. (you can't run a new car without one as I have found)The inner range of a mechanical, stock, 1960's car is the normal operating range after warmup..top center is around 185...the range is a low around 170 to a high of 195 give or take a few. BUT...some claim they are running an old car at temps of 230 + and are very happy...so be it...not this guy
and..ask the guys at the track how there mopar runs at 215+ vs 185 degrees...alot of lost horsepower and engine failure...heat is potentialy the biggest enemy of an engine.
A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature. If the engine is running "hot" at 195, then why have an OEM t-stat temp that high? I am not saying that maybe going to a 180 might not be a bad idea but I can't see 195 as running hot...
I would also never run a car without a t-stat as that will cause the engine to wear out prematurely as the engine will run so long below its proper operating temperature. Just like being too hot will cook an engine, being too cool will wear it out as well. There is a reason why motors use t-stats and have more many years....it isn't just to get heat faster.
I do agree I would never want to run a car regularly at much over 200-210 degrees and definitley not anywhere near 230! 
I just want to see if you guys get the same beahvior with the stock gauges. I might get an aftermarket gauge to cross check this when I have the spare $$$
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360512
12/29/12 04:30 PM
12/29/12 04:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,124
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/30/12 08:27 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1360513
12/29/12 05:17 PM
12/29/12 05:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,060
Pendleton NY
terzmo
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Quote:
I wold verify the actaul emps in the motor with a infra red gun at the sender and use a thermometer(SP?) in the radiator  I've seen gauges be off as much as 50 F when indicating in the lower ranges   Autometer mechanical water temp gauge read 140F and the actual water temp coming into the radiator was 93 F  
"I would also never run a car without a t-stat as that will cause the engine to wear out prematurely as the engine will run so long below its proper operating temperature. Just like being too hot will cook an engine, being too cool will wear it out as well. There is a reason why motors use t-stats and have more many years....it isn't just to get heat faster."
new age thinking.....what happens when that 195 stat finally opens and the rest of the water is at a huge cooler difference..like 65 degrees vs 195 ....new cars need the heat to run efficient with all the other extra add ons...old cars have a PCV valve at the most and designed for lower temps vs new cars. Both My chevy truck and Jeep run at 220...I'm not running My 67 r/t anywhere's near that....running at 195 is an owner's choice but at the high end of operating temp for an old engine...run your motor longer and hotter with a 195 stat.( which means it most likely won't react until almost 200 or more)..I'll run mine at 180 to 185.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: Grizzly]
#1360514
12/29/12 05:23 PM
12/29/12 05:23 PM
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
195 should leave you somewhere in normal operating range. Even on the new vehicles with 195's the needle has an awful long ways to go to hit "H". I've gone from a 180 to 190 and the needle only changed 1 needle width position at the most.
You should't compare the calibration of gauges on current vehicles to those built 35 plus years ago.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360515
12/29/12 05:28 PM
12/29/12 05:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.
what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?
According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: JohnRR]
#1360516
12/29/12 05:40 PM
12/29/12 05:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Quote:
Quote:
195 should leave you somewhere in normal operating range. Even on the new vehicles with 195's the needle has an awful long ways to go to hit "H". I've gone from a 180 to 190 and the needle only changed 1 needle width position at the most.
You should't compare the calibration of gauges on current vehicles to those built 35 plus years ago.
Sure you can. Our 2010 300C SRT-8 shows 175 on the analog dash gauge and the digital display says 205 (or something like that). It will be the year 3000 before Chrysler figures out the in's and out's of analog gauges.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: JohnRR]
#1360517
12/29/12 06:06 PM
12/29/12 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
Quote:
A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.
what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?
According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .
The car is a 1973 Charger. Both Advace Auto and Rock Auto show a 195 degree stat as OEM temp (what I have). They have 180 and 160 degree units available but they are not OEM temp according to them. Maybe it's an early 70's emissions thing to let the motor run hotter?
I may go to a 180 degree stat but as I understand it, putting in a lower temp stat is not going to fix a cooling issue...it's just a bandaid. Not to say 180 is really a low temp stat but you get what I am saying...
I have an aluminum WP housing and I have pegged it with the IR thermometer when it was warmed up and I have never seen it get above 165 or so around the sender.
However, I can peg it near the distributor and at a few points near the oil pump and it can get 205 or so on a HOT day. With IR thermometer, radiator gets a 30+ degree drop IIRC.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360518
12/29/12 06:49 PM
12/29/12 06:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,670
Andrewh
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so right now, it appears nothing is wrong with your cooling system.
you need to get over what the gauge says.
IT IS NOT CORRECT.
if your IR gun shows under 200 or 195 ish, when the thermostat opens, and it maintains that temp, you don't have any cooling issues.
your old gauge just reads there now for your operating temp.
The drop in the gauge you see may not be much degree wise.
unless again, you are seeing a huge drop with the ir gun.
Either way, I don't see a problem, unless the temp the ir gun shows is way over 195 before the thermostat opens, or you start going above that at the radiator.
your gauge is just not reading where you think it should and it is making you chase something that isn't wrong.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: stumpy]
#1360521
12/29/12 08:26 PM
12/29/12 08:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
Condensation doesn't need to be boiled out water evaporates at much lower than 212*. There is no reason to run older engines higher than 195. Older engines run much better at 180-185*.
Not disagreeing necessarily, but why is the OE t-stat a 195 degree unit then? If 180-185 is the "sweet spot" then why did the factory not use 180 degree units? I am guessing they didn't see a problem with running at 195 degrees is my logic. Not to say I think running much over 200 degrees for extended periods is a good idea either.
Oh well, I will just have to run it and see what happens. What are first signs of engine overheat I should look for? It is a BB stroker and the original block so I don't want to risk blowing this up.
Would advancing or retarding timing influece this at all? I had it at 18 degrees initial but rolled it back to 16 as it would ping slightly under load on a hot day.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360523
12/29/12 08:59 PM
12/29/12 08:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
moparmarks
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Western Colorado High Desert
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None of my 71/4B gauges act like that. Just slowly come up to the lower side of the normal range.
Maybe your stat is sticking abit.
My 72 FSM calls for a 185* stat and thats what I've been running for 35 years in alot of Mopars.
Back in the day people would run a 195* in the winter and a 180* in the summer. Common here where it can be over 100* in the summer and -0* in the winter.
My 72 440 driver w/185* stat nevers gets over 190* in the summer but is a little cool in the winter.
72 Satellite Sebring Plus 440, 72 Dart 5.9 4-spd, 68 Valiant, 73 W200, 78 D100 sb, 78 D200, 98 DAKOTA, . Moparmarks Parts & Restorations Desert Mopar Metal Grand Jct. CO 970-261-7039 http://moparmark.com/motormangj@gmail.com
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360524
12/29/12 10:07 PM
12/29/12 10:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.
what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?
According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .
The car is a 1973 Charger. Both Advace Auto and Rock Auto show a 195 degree stat as OEM temp (what I have). They have 180 and 160 degree units available but they are not OEM temp according to them. Maybe it's an early 70's emissions thing to let the motor run hotter?
I may go to a 180 degree stat but as I understand it, putting in a lower temp stat is not going to fix a cooling issue...it's just a bandaid. Not to say 180 is really a low temp stat but you get what I am saying...
I have an aluminum WP housing and I have pegged it with the IR thermometer when it was warmed up and I have never seen it get above 165 or so around the sender.
However, I can peg it near the distributor and at a few points near the oil pump and it can get 205 or so on a HOT day. With IR thermometer, radiator gets a 30+ degree drop IIRC.
I just looked at Rockauto and it says the OEM for my 69 Superbee and dart is 195  ... WRONG ... I don't use online retailers of generic parts as a source for OEM info and neither should you or anyone else ...
Did the company that restored your gauge ask for any info?
Maybe you should call them , talk about your issue then send the gauge and your sender back to them after you compare your gauge wit ha mechanical gauge connected in the same area as your current sender ?
Oh and buy a factory manual ...
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: attaboy]
#1360526
12/29/12 10:54 PM
12/29/12 10:54 PM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 304
Portland, Oregon
Digger73
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With an aluminum water pump housing the ground potential could be the problem. Ohm out the difference between the cast iron block to the negative on the battery and, ohm out the resistance to the water pump housing to the negative on the battery. Also you should check the engine to body ground. For the sender to be correct there should be no difference.
As said in an earlier post, the gauge and sender work on resistance and everything is in reference to ground.
Digger73
I live with fear everyday but, sometimes she lets me race!
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: moparfan53]
#1360530
12/30/12 02:24 AM
12/30/12 02:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
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as stated, no, this is not normal behavior no matter what thermostat you are running. something is wrong.
Also, the temp sending switch appears to have changed mid 1970s. non-leanburn part number is 4051140. So, I am sure this number is useless to you, even if it would work.
I found it under the electrical system if anyone wants to shoot him the previous number.
You might try blasting the heater while the car does this, just to make sure you didn't put the thermostat in backwards, or something. If the coolant really is getting hot like that, you'll feel it in the heater. under normal op, the temp should come up slowly. only in an overheat situation will it go full H. if you are missing coolant, it will overheat and sometimes not even move the gauge since it's now decoupled from what's going on in the block.
One last thing, I would never assume all went well with your reconditioning.
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360531
12/30/12 05:41 AM
12/30/12 05:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,465
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A 195 degree stat is the OEM temperature.
what year is the car you are working on and where did you get that info ?
According to my 69 service manual the stock thermo temp is 190 , it's 200 for the 170" /6 .
The car is a 1973 Charger. Both Advace Auto and Rock Auto show a 195 degree stat as OEM temp (what I have). They have 180 and 160 degree units available but they are not OEM temp according to them. Maybe it's an early 70's emissions thing to let the motor run hotter?
I may go to a 180 degree stat but as I understand it, putting in a lower temp stat is not going to fix a cooling issue...it's just a bandaid. Not to say 180 is really a low temp stat but you get what I am saying...
I have an aluminum WP housing and I have pegged it with the IR thermometer when it was warmed up and I have never seen it get above 165 or so around the sender.
However, I can peg it near the distributor and at a few points near the oil pump and it can get 205 or so on a HOT day. With IR thermometer, radiator gets a 30+ degree drop IIRC.
The parts stores temp senders have the WRONG RESISTANCE values.
You need to add resistors in paralel to get them to read right. Use you infared thermometer gun and add/substract resistance. Get a resistor pack from Radio Shack with combination of resistors around 10 ohms.
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1360532
12/30/12 10:55 AM
12/30/12 10:55 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
The parts stores temp senders have the WRONG RESISTANCE values.
You need to add resistors in paralel to get them to read right. Use you infared thermometer gun and add/substract resistance. Get a resistor pack from Radio Shack with combination of resistors around 10 ohms.
If this is the case (why not it's only Mopar?), then has anybody ever thought to post the proper resistance range for the OEM sender so we can compare? I can imagine this would be hard to do for somebody who has one.... 
Also, is it safe to say that if the aluminum WP housing is pegging around 165* with the IR thermometer, then the coolant inside would be within a few degress? Or could there be a huge difference?
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360533
12/30/12 11:24 AM
12/30/12 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Also, is it safe to say that if the aluminum WP housing is pegging around 165* with the IR thermometer, then the coolant inside would be within a few degress? Or could there be a huge difference?
The water inside will be the temp within a few degrees.
I'll ask again is the car boiling over ?
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions
[Re: JohnRR]
#1360534
12/30/12 12:45 PM
12/30/12 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, is it safe to say that if the aluminum WP housing is pegging around 165* with the IR thermometer, then the coolant inside would be within a few degress? Or could there be a huge difference?
The water inside will be the temp within a few degrees.
I'll ask again is the car boiling over ?
No signs of boiling over...no steam from the cap. I am thinking cap is 13lbs by the way....
The cap is one of the Mr. Gasket with the built in temp probe. I have never seen it get above 140-150* but then again, have no idea how accurate that is...
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions **UPDATE**
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360536
01/10/13 07:42 PM
01/10/13 07:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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Thought I'd fill you guys in on some things I have learned from this. I bought an OEM sender unit and installed it along with a 180 degree "superstat". I confirmed that the t-stat unit in there before was indeed a 195 degree unit. Now, the thermostat opens when then temp gauge is about dead center and then falls to the low end of the normal range when left running in place with the electric fans engaged. I measured the resistance across the units and the OEM unit shows about 320 ohms at room temp where as the aftermarket was closer to 200 ohms. I am guessing this might have been throwing the gauge off. It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I didn't just buy a friggen Camaro or Mustang!
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Re: Stock Temp Gauge Questions **UPDATE**
[Re: cjskotni]
#1360537
01/12/13 05:36 PM
01/12/13 05:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 606
Montana
Yancy Derringer
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Quote:
It's crap like this that makes me wonder why I didn't just buy a friggen Camaro or Mustang!
If you think GM/ Ferd gauges are any better you are delusional. Ferd gauges, especially, work almost exactly like Mopar, right down to the voltage limiter.
Most of these modern problems are caused by
40 year old cars and wiring
Cheap Chineseo replacement parts
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