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Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? #1356336
12/20/12 03:41 PM
12/20/12 03:41 PM
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The Swamp
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Sixpak Offline OP
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Building a Duster body with the battery in the trunk but will be using a stock fuel tank - no fuel cell in trunk area. Is a metal firewall still required since the battery will be in the trunk?

How did you mount your trunk mount battery - with the posts parallel to the qtr panel or perpendicular? Concerned about uncovering the cells under hard acceleration, thinking perpendicular is the way to go.

Also installing an 8 pt roll bar. I also want to reinstall the rear seat. Any tricks for squeezing it back in there once the roll bar is in? The lower cushion might go thru the sides if the pop out windows aren't installed - not sure about the back seat rest. And no, NO ONE will be sitting in the rear seat, period - just doing it for looks, don't want that cavernous empty space back there. A little sound deadening, too... I plan to have the rear hoop support bars bottom out just at the edge of the package tray, which means they go almost to the tail lite panel!

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: Sixpak] #1356337
12/20/12 04:48 PM
12/20/12 04:48 PM
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Yes, if you move the battery to the trunk, there needs to be a metal firewall (includes package tray area), unless the battery is in a sealed (NHRA Approved) battery box. Also the battery hold downs should be attached to tabs off the frame rail or through the frame rail, not just through the trunk floor.

Quote:

8:1 BATTERIES
All batteries must be securely mounted; must be of sufficient capacity to start vehicle at any time. Batteries may not be relocated into the driver or passenger compartments. Rear firewall of .024-inch steel or .032-inch aluminum (including package tray) required when battery is relocated in trunk. In lieu of rear firewall, battery may be located in a sealed .024-inch steel, .032-inch aluminum, or NHRA-accepted poly box. If sealed box is used in lieu of rear firewall, box may not be used to secure battery and must be vented outside of body. Relocated battery(s) must be fastened to frame or frame structure with a minimum of two 3/8-inch-diameter bolts. OEM located batteries without complete OEM hold-down hardware must be secured to OEM battery box/tray using the same 3/8-inch diameter bolt hold-down method described in previous sentence. (“J” hooks prohibited or must have open end welded shut.) Metal battery hold-down straps mandatory. Strapping tape prohibited. A maximum of two automobile batteries, or 150 pounds combined maximum weight (unless otherwise specified in Class Requirements), is permitted. Maximums may vary according to Class Requirements.





Also a battery disconnect switch needs to be mount on the back of the car to disconnect the + side of the battery from the electrical system.

Most newer batteries are not really affected by hard launches, particularly any dry cell unit. I have always placed the posts parallel with the tail panel to reduce the possibility of the plates shifting backward and shorting, however I have NEVER heard of this happening.

You didn't mention what rear suspension you have. With leaf springs I would run the back braces to the point in the frame the rear shackles mount to, which would be near the tail panel.

On a coil-over car I would terminate about halfway between the tail panel and the shock mount bar, with a support tube down from the brace to the shock mount tube.

Sorry your on your own on the back seat, there is no "easy" way! The good news is you can cut some of the seat supports out since no one will be sitting back there.

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: ProStDodge] #1356338
12/20/12 04:56 PM
12/20/12 04:56 PM
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NHRA rulebook for 7.50 or slower says .024 inch steel or .032 aluminum. Bulkhead must isolate driver compartment from trunk. Doesn't say how to mount it.

Fireproof caulking


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Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: Savoy1964] #1356339
12/20/12 05:06 PM
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How about another firewall Q ? .... a engine - with severe setback.

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: dOrk !] #1356340
12/20/12 06:24 PM
12/20/12 06:24 PM
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Quote:

How about another firewall Q ? .... a engine - with severe setback.




Doc - not sure what you are looking for, but here is the general regs firewall section

Quote:

7:4 FIREWALL
Each car in competition must be equipped with a minimum .032-inch aluminum or .024-inch steel firewall, extending from side to side of the body and from the top of the engine compartment’s upper seal (hood, cowl, or deck) to the bottom of the floor and/or belly pan. Firewall must provide a bulkhead between the engine and/or fuel tank and driver compartment. All holes in firewall must be sealed with aluminum or steel. In certain instances, fiberglass, carbon fiber, or other composites may be used. See Class Requirements or consult NHRA. Use of magnesium prohibited.




HOWEVER - the kicker is IF you "alter" the OEM firewall, or floor pan, a Roll CAGE is needed for 11.00 (6.99) and faster instead of a roll bar.

Quote:

Roll cage mandatory in cars running 10.99 (*6.99) or quicker or any car exceeding 135 mph. In full-bodied cars, with unaltered firewall, floor, and body (from firewall rearward, wheeltubs permitted), running between 10.00 (*6.40) and 10.99 (*6.99), roll bar permitted in place of roll cage. In convertibles running 10.99 or quicker or exceeding 135 mph, roll cage mandatory.



Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: ProStDodge] #1356341
12/20/12 06:35 PM
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Quote:



Doc - not sure what you are looking for, but here is the general regs firewall section






THX for the rule-book info/quote Pro-uN !

The severe engine set-back I am talking about is the Caravan project ... putting the RB engine in where the regular front seat driver and passemger is ...and then drive-it from the second-set of seats in the rear.

Have to build a special dog-house with cover. Small round or square tubing with two layers of 032 alum on either side of the tubing with some foam insulation inside ? ..

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: Savoy1964] #1356342
12/20/12 06:40 PM
12/20/12 06:40 PM
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Quote:

NHRA rulebook for 7.50 or slower says .024 inch steel or .032 aluminum. Bulkhead must isolate driver compartment from trunk. Doesn't say how to mount it.

Fireproof caulking




First, this is ONLY required if the battery or fuel cell has been relocated to the trunk. And, as mentioned the posts above, if only the battery is in the trunk, a sealed battery box can be used in place of a firewall.

Mounting of the rear firewall is open to the car owner, as long as it is not with zip ties or hose clamps!

Screws or welding is preferred.

There NO requirement for fireproof caulking, but any gaps around items passing through (i.e. roll bar) should be minimal. Metal patches can be used to cover holes (NOT duct tape!).

I would agree that the fireproof caulk is a good added measure, but it not required. Might be good for an extra pat-on-the-back from the tech guy!

Scott
NHRA D-3 "silver" tech

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: dOrk !] #1356343
12/20/12 07:05 PM
12/20/12 07:05 PM
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Quote:


THX for the rule-book info/quote Pro-uN !

The severe engine set-back I am talking about is the Caravan project ... putting the RB engine in where the regular front seat driver and passemger is ...and then drive-it from the second-set of seats in the rear.

Have to build a special dog-house with cover. Small round or square tubing with two layers of 032 alum on either side of the tubing with some foam insulation inside ? ..




The rule due NOT require two layers of metal on the doghouse cover. But there is a difference in which fire suit/gloves/shoes the driver must wear if aluminum is used, depending on speed and if power adders or alcohol fuel is used.

And while not in the rule book, I highly advise against any foam sound deadener. Burning plastic foam is similar to Napalm.

Depending on how you configure the engine cowling, it may be difficult to pass tech with a motor relocated into the drivers compartment.

Again depending on how it is built, it may need to be classified as an exhibition vehicle.

I know this guy was having issues a few years back.

Scott

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Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: ProStDodge] #1356344
12/20/12 07:56 PM
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Quote:



The rule due NOT require two layers of metal on the doghouse cover. But there is a difference in which fire suit/gloves/shoes the driver must wear if aluminum is used, depending on speed and if power adders or alcohol fuel is used.

And while not in the rule book, I highly advise against any foam sound deadener. Burning plastic foam is similar to Napalm.

Depending on how you configure the engine cowling, it may be difficult to pass tech with a motor relocated into the drivers compartment.

Again depending on how it is built, it may need to be classified as an exhibition vehicle.

I know this guy was having issues a few years back.

Scott




The two-layer idea is just my thought from a heat and sound issue. If alum is a problem .. then I would stick to steel... ISN'T there a foam-type insulation material that is considered "fire-proof"?

Configuring the cowling (doghouse) ?

That chopped top Caravan ? ... I talked to one guy that had worked on it with the owner .... THAT ONE had a solid-mount rear axle and the driver sat IN FRONT of the engine. IIRC .. he ran it in Bracket 1 ... 11.50 or so.

ALL I want is a driver .. that will surprise a few Corvettes and Mustangs ... and I honestly prefer keeping the top OEM.

What issues did you hear he had?

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: dOrk !] #1356345
12/21/12 04:02 AM
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Doc,

With that many major chassis/frame modifications, I think it will be hard to convince a local track tech to "approve" it for racing. Even if you only wanted to run 11.50's I would not approve it without a chassis sticker already in place.

You want to drive it? from the back seat? I can't believe any local law enforcement would let it around the block without questioning it.

Sorry, way too "different" for me to give any approval or even an indication of what would be needed with just an internet description.

Interesting idea - just not sure about how to qualify it.

Scott

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: ProStDodge] #1356346
12/21/12 01:06 PM
12/21/12 01:06 PM
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So uN ... my thoughts are NOT to do many mods to the frame/chassis. Just setting the motor way-back. From what I know .. the floor and roof-pillars etc ...are way over-built by Chrysler so the stiffness of the chassis should not be a problem...

There was a '90-something Caravan with a 360 in it ... IN a stock-type location(but with some major firewall mods) .. but HOW he worked out a decent oil pan and exhaust-system had to have been a horror-show.

The cops ? ... why would there be a potential issue there? No obstruction-of-vision issues.(the whole van is mostly glass). It would be driven from the mid-seats ...not from the rear seats. And there would be LESS tip-of-the-frontend to driver location than in most typical muscle-cars and way-WAY less than a C-body !

So you seem quite familiar with drag-strip-tech ... ?

Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: dOrk !] #1356347
12/21/12 09:17 PM
12/21/12 09:17 PM
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I think the best answer is to contact the NHRA or IHRA tech department directly and pose your question with as much detail as you can. In the back of National Dragster is a list of the Divisional offices with phone numbers for the tech directors, since the rules are always evolving it is best to get the latest thinking and preferably in writing.
I am doing a similar project where I am mounting a fuel cell below the floor in my 2wd Ramcharger and need to cut a hatch in the existing floor to fill the cell. I am recuperating from surgery and I am not ready to actually do it, but I am doing a lot of planning and measuring first. Good luck with your project.


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Re: Rr St firewall rule? Rr Seat w/roll bar? Battery? [Re: dOrk !] #1356348
12/22/12 06:05 AM
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Quote:



So you seem quite familiar with drag-strip-tech ... ?




You could say that.

I have been a member of the NHRA Division 3 Safety Certification team for 3 years as a tech for the Lucas Oil Divisional Races Series, as well as the Jegs Super-Quick series.

I worked the Staging areas for 4 NHRA National events last year, including the U.S. Nationals.

I was track announcer at Indianapolis Raceway Park for two years, and I am still the announcer for the Monster Mopar races.

I was also recently named as the Tech Director for the NADM (Diesel Motorsports).

Here's a picture. I am the one in the black hat.

7513947-P1050029c.jpg (21 downloads)






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