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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: viperblue72]
#1354747
12/18/12 09:55 AM
12/18/12 09:55 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,386
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,386
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
Hi guys. I haven't posted here in a while. I have a '72 cuda. So far I have put a 4.10 dana in place and 440 drivetrain. I plan to use alot of what I already have which is a fresh 440 crank, and source heads.
I am thinking some 0 deck flat tops for pump gas, have the source heads fully ported, and run a solid or solid roller. Also an at with 3500-4k stall.
I do plan to run fiberglass hood and bumpers but otherwise full body and interior (3400 pounds?)
With this stuff listed is 10.90s possible? HOw would you do it or what would you change?
Not likely on pump gas...We always did it with 12.5:1 and a 1050 carb 440 +.03. You need +600hp. You will need to get the heads as good as you can. The convertor and cam will be critical in achieving your goal. Get the heads done first, then get the convertor and then the cam. Get the car on a diet if you can. Not easy to do, and that is why you see the need for the strokers.
Honestly, I would go with EZ1 heads with the 2.19 valves and at least a 9" 4800 convertor and as much compression as you can tolerate. A stroker with the same combo will net you low 10's...And depending on your tire, a 4.56 gear will really help and is almost required. I just switched out 4.10's in my Dana for 4.56, and what a difference. You going to need to watch the details, but it can be done, but it will take a little sorting out.
Either that, or throw away the 440 and install a Hemi. They make a heavy car run...We got 11.0's out of a 3800lb B body in street trim on pump gas! Drive it to work any day you want...
Here is my E-body off the trailer running a 6.90 with a 1.56 60ft on pump..Then I burnt a rod bearing. Good for 10.90's no problem, with a Hemi.
Last edited by Dragula; 12/18/12 10:06 AM.
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1354750
12/18/12 10:28 AM
12/18/12 10:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,989
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,989
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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Quote:
Probably get there w/ a 10.5:1, 590 solid mech or roller cam, those heads will need some port work, 2" headers, M1 intake, 950HP carb... 3500 might not be enough stall. That should be pretty close. I thought those E-body's were heavier than that???
I don't know the elevation where you live, but if it isn't too high, then I agree with the combo above. You might make it with just a good valve job on those heads. Converter is going to be key, and run the cam way advanced. I have seen that basic combo with .045 in the hole flat tops go 10.80s at 3800 lbs. The converter was a 5000 plus stall though.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: viperblue72]
#1354751
12/18/12 10:41 AM
12/18/12 10:41 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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You need about 490 hp so gear, conv and a good induction system... chassis have to work also 
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: gregsdart]
#1354752
12/18/12 10:43 AM
12/18/12 10:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
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 Greg's got it. 10.90's is 6.90's in the 1/8th...I did that with an iron head 451 in a Duster with 3.91's on pump gas. On those stealth heads talk to my boy Hollis Page at hpengines.net
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1354753
12/18/12 11:01 AM
12/18/12 11:01 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,386
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,386
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
You DON'T need 12.5:1 and you DON'T need a Hemi to run 10.90's. Plenty of guys in big heavy B-Bodys running those number w/ old school 590 solid cams and low-buck 440's. I'd probably run a newer grind or a solid roller. I'm running a 588 comp cams solid roller. I'm guessing it cold run 10.90's if I made a few changes, like swapping my 1 3/4" headers for 2" pulling the factory 6-pack for a M1 and 1050 DOM, adding cal-tracs and jumping from a 3800 to 4200 and changing my 3.91's to 4.30's but I drive it to and from the track, and all over so I like it the way it is. I will be adding the headers this winter so we shall see how much that helps.
If you are worried about compresion you can always run a $300 snow performace meth/water injection kit... it works!
Some days you really irk me. Do you have any 10 sec time slips with your 440? We have a guy running one in a very well set-up street legal B-body car with factory heads in the 10.70's. It ran 6.49 in the 1/8th!..Back in the day, all we had were factory heads, and that's what we made run 10.90's...Now a days the heads are x10's better, but you still have to get that weight going. 3400lbs and then the driver is not light. So you still need some gear to match the tires & convertor, and good induction and a well tuned chassis. And no you don't need a Hemi, but with no tuning, right off the trailer, I am in the 10's...YOU?
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Dragula]
#1354756
12/18/12 11:12 AM
12/18/12 11:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
You DON'T need 12.5:1 and you DON'T need a Hemi to run 10.90's. Plenty of guys in big heavy B-Bodys running those number w/ old school 590 solid cams and low-buck 440's. I'd probably run a newer grind or a solid roller. I'm running a 588 comp cams solid roller. I'm guessing it cold run 10.90's if I made a few changes, like swapping my 1 3/4" headers for 2" pulling the factory 6-pack for a M1 and 1050 DOM, adding cal-tracs and jumping from a 3800 to 4200 and changing my 3.91's to 4.30's but I drive it to and from the track, and all over so I like it the way it is. I will be adding the headers this winter so we shall see how much that helps.
If you are worried about compresion you can always run a $300 snow performace meth/water injection kit... it works!
Some days you really irk me. Do you have any 10 sec time slips with your 440? We have a guy running one in a very well set-up street legal B-body car with factory heads in the 10.70's. It ran 6.49 in the 1/8th!..Back in the day, all we had were factory heads, and that's what we made run 10.90's...Now a days the heads are x10's better, but you still have to get that weight going. 3400lbs and then the driver is not light. So you still need some gear to match the tires & convertor, and good induction and a well tuned chassis. And no you don't need a Hemi, but with no tuning, right off the trailer, I am in the 10's...YOU?
No none yet, And I don't use a trailer...but I could if that is what the car was build for. I have a full int, full trim car that I drive. As mentioned probably could be in the 10's w/o too much issue. what's the problem w/ what I said? I told him he needed more convert and to port the heads...Trust me I've seen plenty of 10.90 cars and I know what it takes to get there.
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Keith Richards]
#1354759
12/18/12 11:59 AM
12/18/12 11:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Yes it can be done with a 440 but of course if you throw a stroker crank in and build the combo to it you can do it easier. I am very pleased so far with my combo but I do think it has more in it if I ever get around to some serious tuning at the track. I wanted my 63 to be a 10 second pump gas driver as that was what I built this last eng to do. All I wanted was to be able to drive to the track and crank out 10's running on pump gas thru the full exh and then drive home and not have to do any changes at the track. So I built a 493 using a 440 with a 4.15 crank. And I did not use alot of high dollar parts but just a few.  Nothing is cheap any more. I built a 440 shortblock using the 440Source stroker kit with the 4.15 crank that comes out to 493 cubes at .030 over. I used ARP main studs and billet steel main caps. The pistons are the 440Source dished pistons so I have 10.6 comp with the Indy EZ heads which I used. Pistons are .007 down in the hole so with the EZ closed chamber heads it has .046 quench using the Felpro .039 head gasket. Its just a basic shortblock with 24cc dished pistons. I went with the Indy EZ heads because you can still use all the stock type valve gear and headers. Dont have to use any offset rockers or special headers that the heads need with raised exh ports need. I bought my EZ heads from "Dwayne Porter" who is one of if not the best Mopar head porter there is. Also he is fair with his prices and he is a heck of a nice guy. He did some mild porting on my EZ heads and as I weighed out my options I realized the EZ heads are only a few hundred dollars more then the Eddy heads which are a few hundred more then the 440Source Stealth heads. And the EZ heads have more potential if I want to step it up in the future. My cam is a solid flat tappet speced also by Dwayne Porter for my pump gas eng. It is 264 & 270 @ .050 with .588 asnd .592 lift and is ground on a 110 LSA. I have it in on a 106 centerline. I also use Hughes 1.6 rockers that puts my lift at .632 and .628. Up top I used an Indy dual plane intake with a basic Holley 850 DP. I use a Mallory dist with the MP orange ecu. On the exh I bought the TTI 2" headers and the full 3" exh system out to the rear bumper with the X-pipe and the mufflers are Dyno-Max Ultra-Flows. This is in my 3700lb 63 Plymouth that with a Dynamic 9.5 converter and 4.30 gears with 30 x 9 tires has run 10.70's so far driving it to the track and racing thru the full exh on 92 pump gas. I can run 38 total timing all in by 1800 rpm with no ping or spark knock at all. The converter will flash about 4200 but drives like a normal converter. Its not a simple task but its also not as hard as some make it sound. Just sit down and think out what you want and write down the combo you want and then work on it within your budget. I dont use a 1050 Dominator carb or a single plane intake or a Barry Grant fuel pump. Also I dont use MSD ign or a fuel cell........my point is you dont have to run the most exspensive high dollar parts to run like you want but you need to run the parts that will work so you can build it smartly within your budget. My 63 is a 99% street car driver that I usually drive to the track unless I race very far from home and need to make sure I have a way home if I break. If you click the link below it has alot of info about my 63 and at the bottom of the page is info on the 493 build. I wanted a car that had the wild solid cam rump rump sound that I grew to love from the 60's but idled nice enough to be a daily driver and make good power on pump gas thru the pipes. And I wanted to do it on just the eng as I dont like using power adders and I wanted it to stay a mild enough simple build. You can do what you want as you need to sit down and figure out what you plan to build within your budget. Good luck and just ask what ever you need to know here as Moparts is full of great smart people. Ron http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html
Last edited by 383man; 12/18/12 03:13 PM.
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: 383man]
#1354760
12/18/12 12:43 PM
12/18/12 12:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266
Renton Washington
Triple Threat
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266
Renton Washington
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440
Ported Stealths
11:1
[Email]255-265@.050[/Email] Solid or roller
Good single plane M1, Strip Dominator etc
850 or 1000 holley or Dominator
4-5000 stall
4.10 gear
28" tire
If you can't go easy 10's with that stuff at 3500# you're doing something wrong. I did it at that weight with 50 less cubes.
You have a good start with the parts you already have. I'd send the converter out to have the stall raised, that's the only change I suggest.
-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Triple Threat]
#1354761
12/18/12 01:55 PM
12/18/12 01:55 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
deaks
master
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master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
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I agree with the above statement, my car is 440, lighter than yours and 12.5.1 comp. I still think my car would go 10.30's with 10.5.1. Put that in a heavy car like yours, easy 10.80-90.
I use an ultimate converter 5000 stall.
You may not do it first time out but once you've got it dialled in, 10's should be attainable, assuming the chassis is up to it.
Mick
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200#
best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft
best 60ft 1.36
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Gary Robbins]
#1354763
12/18/12 03:43 PM
12/18/12 03:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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Quote:
My 68 Road Runner weighs 3385# without driver..
Old school 440 shortblock..11.5 trw's-6pak rods-stock crank..
eddy heads w/stage11 port by Nick at compu-flow..
600ish flat tappet comp cam specked by Nick..
M1 strip dominator intake with a 1050 carb..
hooker 2" headers thru 3-1/2" flow masters..
9" dynamic convertor (4500 stahl)..
727 trans..
4.10 8 3/4 rear..
s.s. springs..
11 X 29 slicks..
Runs 10.90'S and 6.90'S
Wouldn't those trw pistons only net about 9.8:1 compression with 84 cc heads and a .020 head gasket? A .038 head gasket would make it around 9.43:1 or so. Did you mill the block and heads?
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: Dragula]
#1354764
12/18/12 04:06 PM
12/18/12 04:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
cudadoug
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,245
Between a rock & a hard place
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Quote:
Quote:
You DON'T need 12.5:1 and you DON'T need a Hemi to run 10.90's. Plenty of guys in big heavy B-Bodys running those number w/ old school 590 solid cams and low-buck 440's. I'd probably run a newer grind or a solid roller. I'm running a 588 comp cams solid roller. I'm guessing it cold run 10.90's if I made a few changes, like swapping my 1 3/4" headers for 2" pulling the factory 6-pack for a M1 and 1050 DOM, adding cal-tracs and jumping from a 3800 to 4200 and changing my 3.91's to 4.30's but I drive it to and from the track, and all over so I like it the way it is. I will be adding the headers this winter so we shall see how much that helps.
If you are worried about compresion you can always run a $300 snow performace meth/water injection kit... it works!
Some days you really irk me. Do you have any 10 sec time slips with your 440? We have a guy running one in a very well set-up street legal B-body car with factory heads in the 10.70's. It ran 6.49 in the 1/8th!..Back in the day, all we had were factory heads, and that's what we made run 10.90's...Now a days the heads are x10's better, but you still have to get that weight going. 3400lbs and then the driver is not light. So you still need some gear to match the tires & convertor, and good induction and a well tuned chassis. And no you don't need a Hemi, but with no tuning, right off the trailer, I am in the 10's...YOU?
Me thinks the Yuckster is dead on. Here's how we did it back in the mid 90's. Flat top TRW 440, 0 deck. Home ported 452 heads, .590 MP stick, M-1 Single plane, 850, iron rockers, 9" J converter and a 4.30 gear. On 9 x 30 slicks, through the muffs it went 10.90's until it was wore out. Best of 10.82 in good air. The car it was in? A very stock (frame tied, moly cage, no back seat, OE bucket seats, TA hood but all steel, OE windows...very streetable) 71 Challenger.
The same car, with STOCK 906 heads, a Stock Elim cam (not going to drive that on the street) and a 6-bbl went 11.20's. Changed to a 8" "race" converter and it ran 11.0s.
Car was "in excess" of 3400 lbs, too.
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: cudadoug]
#1354765
12/18/12 04:34 PM
12/18/12 04:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 860
lancaster,california
johnnycuda
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 860
lancaster,california
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My '70 'Cuda went 11.20's at LACR on pump,had a 440,10.5 compression,.055 over,Indy SR heads ported,Indy single plane intake,950HP carb,a Indy spec .601/.608 solid flat tappet cam,8" convertor,but was pretty tight,{slow 60ft showed it},4.56 gears,28" Mickeys,full length exhaust with 'Cuda tips,3" Flowmaster 30series muffs,track is about 3500ft elevation,Bakersfield{closer to sea level} is good for at least tenths on most cars.My car is 3780 with me in it,I dropped exhaust out of car once and went 11.08 at LACR.
1970 'Cuda,Lime Light,499 Indy S/R's 10.70's @125,street driven ALOT!
1966 Barracuda 360,now a 5spd,Hemi Orange,Hot Rod Air,
New daily driver-2003 Ram 2500 Cummins 5.9
'69 Valiant 2-dr, sleeper!
New project---1938 Dodge truck, plan is a 360 with a A500, AC, Calvert rear susp., rack and pinion front with coils.
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: gregsdart]
#1354770
12/19/12 01:09 PM
12/19/12 01:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
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I haven't run a bunch of different BB combos, so this is from a keyboard commando!  All things being equal, I'd prefer running more cubes at lower RPM than small (stock) cubes at a higher RPM. Air and fuel volume will be equal, so you will need a good upper end either way. Converter will be required either way, and more torque will be nicer on the street than a peaky high HP/RPM motor that is soft down low. 
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: BradH]
#1354772
12/19/12 05:30 PM
12/19/12 05:30 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
67mprfan
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,030
ohio
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It can be done maybe a little more gear but tuned right should be ok
71 demon stock stroke 440/indy ez-1 running 10.10 @ 132.14 mph in the 1/4 and 6.36 @ 107.46 mph in the 1/8 not in the same weekend but It did it then I sold it.
67 Belvedere that worked it's way in the 10's
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: viperblue72]
#1354773
12/19/12 07:09 PM
12/19/12 07:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 290
Cincinnati, Ohio
d7cook
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 290
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Hi guys. I haven't posted here in a while. I have a '72 cuda. So far I have put a 4.10 dana in place and 440 drivetrain. I plan to use alot of what I already have which is a fresh 440 crank, and source heads.
I am thinking some 0 deck flat tops for pump gas, have the source heads fully ported, and run a solid or solid roller. Also an at with 3500-4k stall.
I do plan to run fiberglass hood and bumpers but otherwise full body and interior (3400 pounds?)
With this stuff listed is 10.90s possible? HOw would you do it or what would you change?
My old Combo was a 3800lb B body on 9" slicks SS springs, 4000 stall 10", manual valve body trans, 516 heads with big valves, 590 cam and TRW 11.5-1 pistons. Ran 11.0's.
My last venture with a Buick motor I used CNC ported performer heads and a Scott Brown cam. Really surprised me how well it ran, similar combo with flat tops it ran 10.60's but would idle at 800 rpm no problem. I'd recommend Porting the heads, custom cam and/or possibly a 500" stroke kit and you should get there easily.
1967 Coronet, 1989 Daytona tube chassis.
Former cars, 66 Charger, 67 R/T, 69 Coronet, 67 Dart GT.
-Banned for life from V8Buick.com-
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: d7cook]
#1354774
12/19/12 10:04 PM
12/19/12 10:04 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 625
Oakville, Wa
HOTMOPR
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 625
Oakville, Wa
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I prefer the ultradyne 309* 613" over the 590 cam. Had great luck with it.. I heard bullet sells these grinds now..
67 Barracuda, 470" B, Glide, FuelTech FT600, Precision, Ptc, QA1, Calvert, Smith racecraft, Afco, Dana 60. 275 radials
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: viperblue72]
#1354776
12/20/12 04:33 AM
12/20/12 04:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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I was going to run the .590 but since I run 10.6 comp I called Dwayne Porter and had him spec a cam for my combo. It is actually close to the .590 but the valve timing plays an important part of it with cylinder pressure as the intake valve closing has alot to do with how much cylinder pressure it builds. And cylinder pressure has alot to do with running on pump gas. I feel I know alot about cams but I dont know what Dwayne Porter knows as he is very good and it seems every car I have seen with one of his cams runs better then I thought it should so thats one of the reasons I went with his cam. He is a pro and does this every day. His prices are very good and I wanted a custom cam speced for my combo. If you would decide to have a custom ground cam and wanted to talk with Dwayne just let me know as I have his phone #. Just an option you might consider to get the most out of your combo. There are many smart people on here but guys like Dwayne do it for a living every day and are pro's at specing a cam to a combo. Also if you do go with a solid flat tappet which I did have it nitrided as Dwanye suggested and did that to mine and also told me to run the EDM lifters which have a tiny hole on the lifter face that puts oil right on the cam lobe. Nothing wrong with the 950 carb as I only use an 850 right now. The 1-7/8 headers will do the job for you. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 12/20/12 04:36 AM.
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Re: How to get 10.90s pump gas 440 in a 'cuda
[Re: 383man]
#1354777
12/20/12 10:16 AM
12/20/12 10:16 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,026
Trumbull,CT.
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Back in the early 90s we had a 68' Barracuda @3380# w/driver....
440 block 4.375 x 4.15
906 ported iron heads
.590 MOPAR solid cam
M1 intake gasket matched w/2in spacer
Holley 9375 1050 dominator
BME rods
About 11 static compression w/flats
2in fenderwell headers
727
9in "J" converter
4.56 Dana
SS springs w/inboard
Mopar rear shocks.....Koni SPA-1 fronts
SS Hemi style scoop
31 x 12 Firestones
Drove the wheels off the car on the street and only had about 15 runs in that trim before we switched to 440-1s, a solid roller and good headers.
Raced it on cheapo Cam 2 110 because we had a station 3 miles away that had it at the pump for $4 a gallon, so it drank that, mostly......but it would drive around on 93 pump with no issue.
In decent air at ATCO, 10.06 @135+.
Most fun car I've ever owned......cheap to build and low maintenance.
It doesn't take much to run 10.90s if your in the 550+ range and your converter and gear aren't in left field, but 3400# might be light for your car, unless you've taken some steps to shed some weight.
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