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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: AARCONV]
#1345853
12/06/12 12:08 AM
12/06/12 12:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
moparmarks
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Posts: 12,494
Western Colorado High Desert
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I've done a few of these E-body 5-spd conversions and you really need to follow Dayclona's advise. You will be happier later on down the road. Get the angles right and the shaker will fall into place.
72 Satellite Sebring Plus 440, 72 Dart 5.9 4-spd, 68 Valiant, 73 W200, 78 D100 sb, 78 D200, 98 DAKOTA, . Moparmarks Parts & Restorations Desert Mopar Metal Grand Jct. CO 970-261-7039 http://moparmark.com/motormangj@gmail.com
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345855
12/08/12 01:53 AM
12/08/12 01:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Brent,
6 1/2" overall was what I got approx on my 71 Challenger, it's a 77,000 original mile car, with ALL original rustfree sheetmetal/floors/framerails/etc never hit, I've owned it for 32 years....
By your pics it's obvious the tranny is way to0 low, the shift tower isn't even protruding thru the floor,... not counting the shifter "nub", just the shift tower itself, it should protrude at least 1-2" above a factory floor floor hump after obtaining the proper driveline angke...I would concentrate your effort on getting the tranny tucked as high as you can, to determined how much you can either shim the rear leaf perches, or cut/reweld them...you can't determine that until you have a value on the tranny to work with,...8 degrees down on the pinion is on the excessive side, 5 degrees down is about avg on a Mopar/leaf equipped car, as axle wind up brings the pinion up approx 4 degrees under acceleration...get the tranny angle worked out first, so that the engine sits "right"...if you can get about an 1" more height that should bring the tranny angle to about 1 degree down, which IMHO is ideal
mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345858
12/08/12 01:33 PM
12/08/12 01:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
I am going to work at is more thismorning and see what I can do, I am hoping to get 1-1/2" or so up on the tranny.
Clarification on the rear pinion angle, are you saying it will roll up 4deg under accell?
I guess the question I have is if the tranny is still 1deg down, wouldn't I want the pinion at 3deg down so it ends up 1deg up under accel. I will probably move the spring perch rather then use shims.
Do what you need to correct the angle, as I mentioned previously in the beginning of the thread, I estimate based on your pics, you'll probably gain no more than 3/4" without further trimming of the transmission tailshaft housing and assorted bosses,...you don't want the tranny too high, 1 degree down as it resides in the chassis would be ideal, but obtain what you can to balance out the Shaker issues as well....the rear pinion on a leaf spring car should always be pointed downward in relation to the driveline angle, as it will rotate upward an avg of 2-4 degrees upon acceleration (depending on many factors, esp spring windup, or lack of it, but assume the max, 4 degrees) So when I posted that driveline angle pic showing the relationship between tranny/driveshaft/pinion, that is in operational/acceration mode...don't be leary of using the Mopar Performance axle perch wedges to correct the rear pinion, I've used up to 4 degrees with no issues, although that's the max I would use....as to your last question regarding the driveline angles, yes that's the ideal situation if the tranny was 1 degree down, but even at that point, it's an initial setting, as you really don't know how much axle/spring wind-up you have, so a real world drive will determine if any vibration in the driveline exists during acceleration or de-acceleration, that will give you a final determination as to whether the pinion needs to go up or down a degree or 2 more, sure it's a lot of aggravation, but in the long run it extends the life of not just the U joints, but the pinion gear, yoke flanges, transmission bearings, syncros, etc...to let it go unchecked, or corrected just invites failure down the road, even if you feel no vibration, if the driveline is over extended in angle operation, wear of all the components involved will be accelerated, some very costly..
I've "been there, done that"...it can be aggravating at times, esp when you think it's licked, but you'll be a happy camper with a 5spd when it's finally dialed in right...PS I hope you dial indicated the bellhousing bore to the crank centerline, if not, now's the time to do it
Mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: faud88]
#1345859
12/08/12 01:47 PM
12/08/12 01:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
I have very similar issue with a 70 Challenger TKO. I put in spacers between the base plate to bring the bubble up. I have driven the car 50-60 miles with no problems and the relation of the fan to the radiatior has no issues. What can go wrong if I don't make the proper adjustments with the tranny?
Paul, if you don't know what relationship your driveline components are operating at, whether you feel vibration or not, isn't healthy for the longevity of your driveline, if your drive line phasing (the angle of the components in operation) and the U joint angle measured between the two joints is greater than 3 to 4 degrees constantly, your just accelerating the fatigue of the components involved.
Driveline angles, unchecked/unknown/uncorrected is behaps the biggest reason for most of these 5/6 spd swaps disappointments and failures, along with improper, or never performed bellhousing dial-in
mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1345860
12/08/12 06:33 PM
12/08/12 06:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
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Ok after much beating and cutting on a really nice floor pan  I can gain a 1" shim between the tranny mount and cross member, this raised the tail shaft 1-1/4". The tail shaft is now only about 1/8" from hitting the the crossmember support that is under the floor. If I cut out that support I could gain maybe another 1/2" But what I did gain only gained me about 1/2 deg of angle, I am now at 3-1/2 deg down instead of 4 deg. So I am never going to get to 1 deg unless I stick the enitre tranny up through the floor. I don't see how any more can be taken off the tranny in this area to gain me anything either, so I think I am at the max I can get. But reguarless isn't the real important thing the relation of tranny to rear end. So if I would get the rear end at 0 degs it would be the best case?   
Last edited by Mopar_Mudder; 12/08/12 06:41 PM.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345863
12/08/12 09:22 PM
12/08/12 09:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,157
Mass
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That's a big improvement over what you had, Tom's suggestion (70HEMIGTX) is a good idea, loosen up the motor mount bolts and see iff some movement occures to settle the motor down, sure it may be little, but everything helps, another alternative is to shim the K frame down, but I wouldn't go crazy, as you'll start screwing with suspension geometry, steering angle, etc, but a slight shimming could nose the motor down, but this will increase the distance of the Shaker base/seal from sealing under the hood, so you may need carb base, or neck spacers, depending on what perimeters you achieve...but it could help to further achieve the desired angle, and level off the Shaker perimeter gap
the current degree reading you have now is kind of relative to how level you have the car blocked in relation to the frame rails to the ground, once you think you've achieved the highest relocation of the tranny, shim/block the chassis level, but maintain that the car is still sitting on it's suspension, then measure the driveline angle off the oil pan rail, or the rear flange of the tailshaft housing measuring vertically on the flange end where the output shaft exits, use this new angle to now set the pinion up as discussed earlier...
You did good!...BTW that looks like a Classic MotorSports/Hurst Industries (Summit) 5spd set up?...yes/no
Mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1345864
12/09/12 12:00 AM
12/09/12 12:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
OP
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Wisconsin
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Quote:
You did good!...BTW that looks like a Classic MotorSports/Hurst Industries (Summit) 5spd set up?...yes/no
Mike
It is a Hurst yes.
All of my measurements have been done with the car sitting on the suspension. The front is set at the factory ride height. Wheels are sitting up on blocks with center of wheel to the floor distances all the same. I have put 200# in the car and about 70# in the trunk to try and make up for no interior or gas in the tank. Based on top of tire to wheel well it is siting level. Oh and the floor is level also.
I have been getting the angle from the machined surface on the end of the tail shaft, I can try and check the oil pan also.
I will try out the motor mount bolts also and see if anything gives at all.
I thought of shimming the K-Frame but would rather not if I didn't have to. Just got all the caster / camber ect all set up, what a PITA. Also the front of the shaker looks about perfect, hate to lower it.
As it sits right now the back of the shaker needs to come up about 1/4" to get to what I would call looking good. I think I can get that now just by doing some tweeking and bending on the base plate, so I am feeling better about where that is at.
Going to try and get at it tommarow but don't know if it will happen, it is the wife birthday after all.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345866
12/09/12 07:51 PM
12/09/12 07:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Got to mess around with it some thismorning and got exact measurement. The actual tranny angle is 3.28 deg down, I get about 3.5 on my angle finder so it is close.
Got the new floor patch made and ready to weld in.
What would you shoot for on the rear end angle now that the tranny angle is done. Forgot that I did try the motor mount bolts yet, but I don't see that changing the angle much. But I will recheck it when I do.
If you still read 8 degrees nose down on the pinion, before you reweld the perches, if that's you intent, do that when you've driven the car and finalized the pinion angle needed, in the mean time, you could install a Mopar Performance 3 or 4 degree wedge between the leaf and axle perch, (I'd start with 3) to rotate the pinion up somewhat from the current 8 to 5, drive the car see how it feels on acceleration/de-acceleration, be sure to measure the driveshaft/u joint degrees as well, 1 degree minimum, 3 degrees max deflection, taking into account pimion rotation under acceleration...after test driving the car, if you have/feel some driveline vibration, if it's on acceleration, more downward degrees need on the pinion, if it's on de-acceleration, raise the pinion, make only 1 degree changes at a time, I'd suggest you buy the Mopar Performance multi shim rear axle degree kit,...depending on how many you stack in there, plus how your leafs were built, you may need to add a longer pin/bolt assy to properly locate the perch hole, as the shims will eat up the height of the alignment pin/bolt for the perch,...then when you have everything squared away, you can relocate the perches to the desired angle and weld them in a finialized position...and eliminate the wedges 
Mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1345867
12/09/12 08:18 PM
12/09/12 08:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
Mopar_Mudder
OP
enthusiast
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OP
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 374
Wisconsin
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Quote:
Quote:
Got to mess around with it some thismorning and got exact measurement. The actual tranny angle is 3.28 deg down, I get about 3.5 on my angle finder so it is close.
Got the new floor patch made and ready to weld in.
What would you shoot for on the rear end angle now that the tranny angle is done. Forgot that I did try the motor mount bolts yet, but I don't see that changing the angle much. But I will recheck it when I do.
If you still read 8 degrees nose down on the pinion, before you reweld the perches, if that's you intent, do that when you've driven the car and finalized the pinion angle needed, in the mean time, you could install a Mopar Performance 3 or 4 degree wedge between the leaf and axle perch, (I'd start with 3) to rotate the pinion up somewhat from the current 8 to 5, drive the car see how it feels on acceleration/de-acceleration, be sure to measure the driveshaft/u joint degrees as well, 1 degree minimum, 3 degrees max deflection, taking into account pimion rotation under acceleration...after test driving the car, if you have/feel some driveline vibration, if it's on acceleration, more downward degrees need on the pinion, if it's on de-acceleration, raise the pinion, make only 1 degree changes at a time, I'd suggest you buy the Mopar Performance multi shim rear axle degree kit,...depending on how many you stack in there, plus how your leafs were built, you may need to add a longer pin/bolt assy to properly locate the perch hole, as the shims will eat up the height of the alignment pin/bolt for the perch,...then when you have everything squared away, you can relocate the perches to the desired angle and weld them in a finialized position...and eliminate the wedges
Mike
Thanks for the thoughts, good idea to shim and test first. Are the Mopar shims the aluminum kind? I really prefer not to use them because I have had them crack before. When I do shims I always make them out of steel and actually bolt them in with the spring pack using a longer center pin. That way no chance of them going any where.
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: Mopar_Mudder]
#1345869
12/10/12 12:31 AM
12/10/12 12:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
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Mopar Performance shims are steel, you may need to order addition degree shims seperately, along with the shim kit, IIRC the shim kit has 6 shims (3 pairs) 1,2,3, degrees each, and 1,2,3, are available seperately, your only going to use them to fine tune the pinion angle, as it would blow to have to reweld the rear perches several times...I know ideally your looking to have the pinion windup to 3 degres max UP in your application, but it's best to "work" the pinion inclination "UP" to desired point, rather than overshoot the benchmark, confirm the pinion angle by measuring every time you add more shim, then when you feel you have reached the ideal pinion angle (by driving the car for driveline "feel"), record it, I would then cut the perches, weld new ones, but do it in the car, otherwords mock up the axle in the car with the perches/axle bolts/etc/etc and tack weld the perches with the car loaded on it's suspension, and the pinion rotated to the desired installed angle....then remove and finish weld the axle
Mike
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Re: Shaker Sitting Low
[Re: screamindriver]
#1345870
12/10/12 12:36 AM
12/10/12 12:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
MP shims are steel...
You beat me too it  ...I'm a slow typer
Mike
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