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(cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? #1338606
11/20/12 09:41 PM
11/20/12 09:41 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Been awile since i posted ,but im back.Racing season is over for me and im planning to upgrade my car a bit over the winter.The car runs well for what it is (7.13 @96 in the 1/8 best) and always runs 7.1's -low 7.2's in good weather.The problem is its out of steam at about 5800 and although i think the heads arent helping matters , i think the cam is an even bigger issue.I got a smoking deal on a cam and lifters for it .My goal was to select a cam that would be ideal for my setup without over camming it for my compression ratio ,convertor ,gears ,etc.

Here is my setup:
360 LA strocked to a 408
10 to 1 compression
Unported Econo W2 heads
Harland Sharp roller rockers
Victor intake
750 Demon
MSD ignition (dist ,box ,coil)
Hedman Hustler Fenderwells
PG trans with a 3500 convertor
4.10 gears with 26 tall tire
(i have a set of 4.86's also ,but the car slowed down with them ,so i went back to the 4.10)
Now for the cam:
the current is an Eddy hyd flat tappit
.488/.510 lift and 234/244 dur @50 with a 112 lobe sep
The cam i bought for it:
Its an NOS Inskenderian solid flat tappit
.507/.507 lift and 254/254 dur @ 50 with a 108 lobe sep

I am only after about 6200-6300 rpm and have no desire to spin it past that with the cast crank .May do it ,but im not gunna.

I realise that a solid roller ,12.5 to 1 pistons ,porting the heads ,etc ,would do alot more for it,but i really dont want to tear this thing down at this point.Its still running strong ,has great compression ,oil pressure ,and not alot of passes on it.This car is also a "Back Burner" hobby (i have several) for me and i dont care to sink that kinda $$ into at my involvement level .

My question is ,do you think any will be gained by the cam swap alone ?Should i have selected a different grind ? Keep in mind this is a budget car ,that i just race for fun at Nostalgia events a few times per year.I am wanting to run a 7.0 class and maybe dip into the 6.9's .Any and all opinions on the cam would be appreciated ,thanks ...

Last edited by The Shocker; 11/20/12 09:52 PM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338607
11/20/12 10:19 PM
11/20/12 10:19 PM
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Minnesota
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Coldart Offline
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Sorry to tell you, but zero gain. New cam not enough lift for any kind of improvement. Probably run same rpm or less.

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: Coldart] #1338608
11/20/12 10:30 PM
11/20/12 10:30 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Dont think anything is to be gained by the added duration and closer lobe speration ???


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338609
11/20/12 10:46 PM
11/20/12 10:46 PM
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Hot 340 Offline
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Why not grind on the heads a little bit? or do you not want to yank them off?

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338610
11/20/12 10:52 PM
11/20/12 10:52 PM
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S.E. Minnesota
gtsdude Offline
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S.E. Minnesota
I run a solid MP circle track cam 509/280, 106 centerline, subtract your lash and your below .500 lift. Is that duration @ 50?

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338611
11/20/12 10:53 PM
11/20/12 10:53 PM
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dennismopar73 Offline
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Go ahead and swap it out, put it in @ 102-103 c/l put tighter lash that what the card says, I run 12 intake 14 exhaust ,
410 will run fine on the street and the track, be nice if you could find some 430,
as for the rpms would not be scared to go up to 7 tho thru the traps
but you will go @ 6300-6500 with what you got?
power glide killing ya ,, unless your in a super light car!!
good luck

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338612
11/20/12 10:58 PM
11/20/12 10:58 PM
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Utah
topbrent Offline
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A 408 generally will appreciate the extra cam duration. You could retard your current cam several degrees to shift the emphasis to the top end a bit.

Your current Edelbrock Cam, #7177 is 234/244 112°LSA 107°ICL.
It has a intake closing point(@.050)of 44°.

As most cams do, I would imagine that the solid Isky has 4° advance ground into it, so with 254/254 108/104, the intake closing point would be 51°.

If installed at 104°ICL the Isky cam will lower your dynamic compression ratio, but would probably be an improvement overall imho. It might not care for the 3500 stall at this point, though. You could install it early at 102° to help with the torque and dynamic compression ratio a bit. This would put your intake closing point at 49°

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: gtsdude] #1338613
11/20/12 10:59 PM
11/20/12 10:59 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Quote:

I run a solid MP circle track cam 509/280, 106 centerline, subtract your lash and your below .500 lift. Is that duration @ 50?


Yes its @50.The advertised duration is 300/300...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: Hot 340] #1338614
11/20/12 11:05 PM
11/20/12 11:05 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Quote:

Why not grind on the heads a little bit? or do you not want to yank them off?


Not scared to ,just dont want to .When this thing shows signs of wear ,i was planning to pull it out and do it right.Port the heads ,and more compression are on the list ,but i dont want to do a halfa$$ job ,when i could do the whole deal at once while freshing it up and gain alot.The cam and lifter deal was cheap ,and i thought it might do it a little good with my current setup in the meantime is all...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338615
11/20/12 11:12 PM
11/20/12 11:12 PM
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Minnesota
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Coldart Offline
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Save your time and money you'll spend on gaskets. Sell the new cam and get your heads fixed then buy the right cam.
Just hate to see you do all that work and not improve any.

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: dennismopar73] #1338616
11/20/12 11:13 PM
11/20/12 11:13 PM
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Posts: 429
Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Quote:

Go ahead and swap it out, put it in @ 102-103 c/l put tighter lash that what the card says, I run 12 intake 14 exhaust ,
410 will run fine on the street and the track, be nice if you could find some 430,
as for the rpms would not be scared to go up to 7 tho thru the traps
but you will go @ 6300-6500 with what you got?
power glide killing ya ,, unless your in a super light car!!
good luck


car is lite.Weighs 2720 without me (extensive gutting) .I know three gears would be ideal ,but the PG is doing okay since i got the weight down.It 60 foots mid to low 1.5's at 3300-3500 launches.I accept the fact that there are lots of mixed matched items on the car that are holding it back as well...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338617
11/20/12 11:18 PM
11/20/12 11:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 902
S.E. Minnesota
gtsdude Offline
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I was really suprised at how well the cam in my 340 worked for what it is. Yours being 408 cubes might like a little more cam but i think it would wake it up a little over your current cam.

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: topbrent] #1338618
11/20/12 11:20 PM
11/20/12 11:20 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Quote:

A 408 generally will appreciate the extra cam duration. You could retard your current cam several degrees to shift the emphasis to the top end a bit.

Your current Edelbrock Cam, #7177 is 234/244 112°LSA 107°ICL.
It has a intake closing point(@.050)of 44°.

As most cams do, I would imagine that the solid Isky has 4° advance ground into it, so with 254/254 108/104, the intake closing point would be 51°.

If installed at 104°ICL the Isky cam will lower your dynamic compression ratio, but would probably be an improvement overall imho. It might not care for the 3500 stall at this point, though. You could install it early at 102° to help with the torque and dynamic compression ratio a bit. This would put your intake closing point at 49°




I got the specs from Isky's sight.

3000 stall ,10.5 to 1 comp ,4.10-4.56 gears ,up to a 750 carb ,valve lash .028 hot on both sides.Bracket Racing Cam /rough idle.

Thanks for the info and tips .I am by no means an expert when it comes cam lowering dynamic compression ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338619
11/20/12 11:22 PM
11/20/12 11:22 PM
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NEW JERSEY
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dynamite Offline
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My question is ,,you said it has a cast crank..Maybe I'm stupid here but I didn;t know you could get a cast crank for your 408 stroker motor..could be wrong tho...

Last edited by dynamite; 11/20/12 11:23 PM.
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: dynamite] #1338620
11/20/12 11:26 PM
11/20/12 11:26 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Quote:

My question is ,,you said it has a cast crank..Maybe I'm stupid here but I didn;t know you could get a cast crank for your 408 stroker motor..could be wrong tho...




Its one from Ohio crank Company ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338621
11/20/12 11:28 PM
11/20/12 11:28 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Im soaking all this up guys.Lots of good info here as well as advise ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338622
11/20/12 11:28 PM
11/20/12 11:28 PM
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Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing Offline
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Quote:

Dont think anything is to be gained by the added duration and closer lobe speration ??? [/quote

To compare duration numbers between hydraulic and solid lifter cams,the generally accepted rule is to add ten degrees to a hydraulic to have a comparable solid.
So you basically have the same exhaust duration,more intake duration.
I would expect the solid to pull much stronger above maybe 5500 rpm due to the nature of hydraulic lifters.
The larger intake lobe should raise the peaks a little,and the tighter lsa will build torque much better through the middle.
I would not expect huge gains,but they definitely should be there.
Keith

Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: Dunnuck Racing] #1338623
11/21/12 06:56 PM
11/21/12 06:56 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Dont think anything is to be gained by the added duration and closer lobe speration ??? [/quote

To compare duration numbers between hydraulic and solid lifter cams,the generally accepted rule is to add ten degrees to a hydraulic to have a comparable solid.
So you basically have the same exhaust duration,more intake duration.
I would expect the solid to pull much stronger above maybe 5500 rpm due to the nature of hydraulic lifters.
The larger intake lobe should raise the peaks a little,and the tighter lsa will build torque much better through the middle.
I would not expect huge gains,but they definitely should be there.
Keith




Thank you sir.This is kinda what i was thinking as well.Small gains here and there through the rpm range .A bit weaker out of the gate (with my convertor stall), but with a little extra lung capacity on the topend.Nothing to write home about for sure ,but a noticable gain .I will report back when i get the cam and lifters changed and have a new time slip in my paw .If it works it works ,if it dont it dont ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338624
12/13/12 10:26 PM
12/13/12 10:26 PM
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Sherman Texas
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The Shocker Offline OP
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After finding a broken valve lock ,i went ahead and pulled the heads.I spent about 20-25 hours mildly porting them ,followed by a lot of blending ,gasket matching,and casting mark removal.They are at the machine shop now getting a fresh valve job .I also bought new Comp springs ,retainers ,and locks .I gasket matched the intake as well .Cant wait to see what happens with the new cam and head work ...

7502377-003.JPG (60 downloads)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
Re: (cam swap )What can i expect to gain ? [Re: The Shocker] #1338625
12/13/12 10:31 PM
12/13/12 10:31 PM
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Sherman Texas
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A shot from the valve side of things ...

7502382-004.JPG (51 downloads)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykcsXMV3vfg My Dart ,and im just getting started...
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