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The Unending Battle Against Rust #1326650
10/26/12 10:52 PM
10/26/12 10:52 PM
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bronco9588 Offline OP
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So I have been methodically working from the rear of my car to the front. While the process is slow, it is really rewarding knowing that I am making my car better as I go forward. I definitely have improved what was really bad. I have a welder, but am far more competent with composites, so I have been using west system epoxy, fiberglass, microballons, POR-15, and vacuum bagging to fix her up. I know that a lot of people frown upon fiberglass, but the bond that west system forms with the por-15 sheet metal is excellent, takes a reasonable amount of time, and looks very clean.

I recently have come across something that appears to be beyond my technical expertise. I guess I would call it the air-box plenum for lack of better terms. This guy is like Swiss cheese. I wonder if Chrysler couldn't have designed a better pool. Anyways, I have about zilch to work with in some areas and no way could I ever vacuum bag in these odd locations. Is there 1) a location that sells one of these guys? or 2) any recommended strategies.

I am thinking about cutting out the entire bottom of the air-box plenum and using the metal as a mold for some fiberglass. I would look to epoxying the fiberglass in with a couple seams of fiberglass.

Well, I will do my best to post pictures shortly.


'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326651
10/26/12 11:00 PM
10/26/12 11:00 PM
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Here is what I started with:

7436637-floorpan.jpg (173 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326652
10/26/12 11:01 PM
10/26/12 11:01 PM
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POR-15

7436640-POR15.jpg (168 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326653
10/26/12 11:01 PM
10/26/12 11:01 PM
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Vacuum Bagging:

7436642-vacbag.jpg (172 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326654
10/26/12 11:03 PM
10/26/12 11:03 PM
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No Rotisserie! This was many hours in weird positions with a needle gun:

7436647-norotiserie.jpg (163 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326655
10/26/12 11:13 PM
10/26/12 11:13 PM
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Now to the front right:

7436657-cleanup.jpg (148 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326656
10/26/12 11:14 PM
10/26/12 11:14 PM
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Crack at the Bottom of the Pillar:

7436660-crack.jpg (143 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326657
10/26/12 11:15 PM
10/26/12 11:15 PM
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POR15:

7436661-por-15.jpg (146 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326658
10/26/12 11:15 PM
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Filler

7436663-filler2.jpg (130 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326659
10/26/12 11:16 PM
10/26/12 11:16 PM
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Patch:


'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326660
10/26/12 11:17 PM
10/26/12 11:17 PM
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Filler:

7436670-filler.jpg (115 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326661
10/26/12 11:18 PM
10/26/12 11:18 PM
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And now the Airbox Plenum:

7436673-rust.jpg (129 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326662
10/26/12 11:19 PM
10/26/12 11:19 PM
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Swiss Cheese:

7436675-plenum.jpg (124 downloads)

'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326663
10/26/12 11:24 PM
10/26/12 11:24 PM
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Well, I think that is enough pictures for now. I have learned a lot and believe that my work is as strong as regular sheet metal. Only time will tell. Sorry that the angle on the last picture isn't a great angle. That spot is definitely the worst but there are holes everywhere on the flat bottom surface, and it is hard to get on the other-side if I wanted to glass from the interior of the airbox plenum.


'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326664
10/27/12 04:56 PM
10/27/12 04:56 PM
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im sorry,but im not going to say that i like what i see your doing.dont get me wrong ,your doing great work with the plastic jada jada.but, im thinking that plastic will bite you in the end..cool car anyway,its mostly the paint cost im ´thinking about,dont want to do it twice..

Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: cuda-sweden] #1326665
10/27/12 05:28 PM
10/27/12 05:28 PM
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areibel Offline
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You might get away with the coating on the air box, but that crack you filled looks real scary. Is the car straight, frame wise? If it is and everthing else is solid I'd still weld in patches as a minimum. That's a stress area, between the A pillar and door hinges and I don't think that plastic will stay for long. Remember that whole area is vital for the structural integrity of the car, Better to fix it now before you finish it and have problems later!

Last edited by areibel; 10/27/12 05:31 PM.
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: areibel] #1326666
10/27/12 08:00 PM
10/27/12 08:00 PM
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Mr D21 Offline
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california rust....

Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: Mr D21] #1326667
10/27/12 08:02 PM
10/27/12 08:02 PM
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more rust...

7437595-Picture125.jpg (110 downloads)
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: Mr D21] #1326668
10/27/12 09:03 PM
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Booo... Yea, my rust is North Carolina rust. The type of rust that gives you a free convertible and a Flintstone's drive at the same time. I do know that if I do nothing, the problem is only going to get worse. I also don't have the money to pay a body man 2,000 dollars to weld in new metal.

I was also expecting some less than positive feedback on fiber glassing from automotive restorers as welding is the "kosher" method. I am willing to take a risk on that. Note that this is not bondo. Bondo is polyester based and I am using west system. This epoxy is ridiculously strong and allows for 2 times more strain before failure than bondo. It has also been proven in the marine and less so in the aviation industry. I am not just slapping some fiberglass reinforced bondo in the the cracks and calling it quits. A little bit more work is performed. Surface has been wire wheeled and POR-15'ed to stop further rust. Gaps filled with epoxy filled with micro ballons. Any fiberglass is vacuum bagged to the repair surface. it would be the equivalent to a 1 ton weight pressing down on a square foot. Final coating of POR-15. So I am basically challenging the notion that all rusted surfaces need to be cut out and welded back in at the expense of going back and doing it again it 10-15 more years when I have more income.

However, looking at the airbox plenum (is this even the correct nomenclature?) I dont have enough metal to wield a patch to if I wanted to, nor enough clearance to vacuum bag inside the car without it being complete crap and a guarantee to have to redo it.


'73 Charger Petty Blue, Black Vinyl, and Gill Slits 727 torque-flight 400 BB Chrysler 8 3/4 rear
Re: The Unending Battle Against Rust [Re: bronco9588] #1326669
10/27/12 10:25 PM
10/27/12 10:25 PM
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I'm not used to NC rust, I wish I had California rust but I'm real familiar with Pennsylvania rust, and it really stinks! Usually it means everthing below the door handles is gone or suspect, and there's no chemical alternative for repair- you need to weld.
Whoever sold you the West system did their job, they descibed their product and it's advantages. But looking at their website it looks like they're into non structural repairs. Patches on quarter panels, floorpans, even trunk floors would be great- as long as there's some metal to bond to you can create a solid non porus (read "not Bondo") surface that's plenty hard. No problem there, if you want to do that instead of weld in panels or patches that's OK.
But when you're talking about a structural component of a unibody vehicle you start to get into a different situation. The cowl and inner fenders are welded to the frame rails and T bar crossmember, and that does a couple things- first, holds up the front end and the power train, it keeps the body sguare so the doors close properly and the windshield doesn't break when you hit a pot hole, etc.. The engineers that designed it back in the day understood it all works together as a system. The epoxy is a different animal. Not only from an engineering perspective) different modulus of elasticity and tensile strengths, etc) but the epoxy gets harder than steel. That sounds good, but when you're trying to fix an existing structural defect there's already a problem. You can fill it with the magic epoxy and cover it with whatever you want, but it's still not doing the same job as the original. You might get it all back together and put a 318 in it and never have a problem. Put a bigger motor in it and horse it the body will flex. Steel remembers where it should be, the epoxy is going to either separate from the metal or crack, even with reinforcement in it. And God forbid you're in an accident.

Automotive epoxies have come a long way, I can remember when the first Fusor products came out. But they weren't then (and still aren't) used for structural components- you can't glue in a replacement frame rail. But just for kicks email the tech people at West and ask them if their product would be warrantied as a structural repair medium for a steel automobile. I can already guess what they'd tell you- No. Boats are a whole different breed of vehicle compared to an automobile, they're built with different materials for a reason. Even a fiberglass vehicle really isn't- maybe some exterior panels, but study the way a Vette is built and you'll find not only a full steel frame under it but a lot of steel supports in the body as well.

Not trying to just start an argument with you dude, it's a nice car and deserves to be saved. I'm glad you're working on it. If you can't weld the major stuff like that it wouldn't be hard to find someone that could. It's a lot more than proving a point that you can do it- welding a patch in that crack probably would have taken less than a half hour and probably cost way less than $50 from a welder. I have friends that would have done it for nothing. But unless you're planning on welding in subframe connectors I think you're going to have problems, and why waste the time and effort then have to do it over again in a year or two?

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