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Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? [Re: rjones] #129386
09/30/08 10:57 AM
09/30/08 10:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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DPelletier Offline
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Quote:

I have had some motorcycles that would respond with a substantial increase in power when the airbox is opened up.

Roger




Yep, motorcycling 101: open up the airbox, high flow pipe and silencer and rejet = more power

Many factory bikes (particularly street bikes, dual sports and enduros) are jetted way lean from the factory and corked up for emmissions reasons.

Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? [Re: dgc333] #129387
09/30/08 12:03 PM
09/30/08 12:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 612
Nampa, ID
None2Slow Offline
mopar
None2Slow  Offline
mopar

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 612
Nampa, ID
Quote:

Not because of a performance or economy improvement (but that is well come if its realized) but because its a great cost savings over the life of the car. I typically keep my daily drivers for 250,000 - 300,000 miles and an $8 filter every 10k miles adds up. Buy the K&N or other washable brand once for $40 and its paid for in the first 1 1/2 over ownership.






This is the same reason that I use them in all my cars. Plus I also have a Supercharged Thunderbird and did notice an improvement with the K&N cone over the stock setup. Then again, we are talking about a small stock box to begin with.

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? [Re: rjones] #129388
09/30/08 12:07 PM
09/30/08 12:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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360view Offline
Moparts resident spammer
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USA
here the best independent test of air filter designs, done by volunteers like yourselves who pooled their money:

http://duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm

note how the aftermarket gauze or foam filters are 1-3 inches of water less restrictive when brand new, but clogged up much faster than a good paper filter with many pleats and lots of surface area

Paper and cotton gauze are both cellulose.
Do you realize you can clean a conventional paper air filter with the right detergents and procedure?
(but is it worth your time at a reasonable $/hr ?)

here's my personal test of a KN drop in years ago:

>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:12:52 -0500
>Subject: KN/Mopar paper/no air filter/ Quarter mile tests
>
>I was curious as to whether the KN air filter element in
the factory Ram
>air filter housing I have been using for 3 years was truly
less
>restrictive than the paper filter elements.

>Back on RTML there was a
>discussion about whether re-useable filters really filtered
the finest
>dust particles as well as paper ones do.
>
>One RTML reader said his construction company tested
re-useable filters
>and did spectrograhic oil analyis to test for dirt passing
through the
>filters. When the silica levels in the oil went up - the
construction
>company went back to paper filters - and the silica levels
in the oil went
>back down. I can't vouch for this alleged test - but the
story worried
>me.
>
>I had the afternoon free and I decided to test the
acceleration question
>myself. I went to the local Dodge dealer (the same one who
sold me a KN drop in element) and bought a $14 Mopar air filter. It is white
paper, has many
>more pleats than the KN, and bears part number 53004383.
Below the part
>number is printed "Made in Canada" and 38682 and then 05/99
is stamped in
>different ink. The rubber gasket on this paper filter seems
to be slightly
>thicker and it takes a little more effort to clamp down the
top cover on it than the KN.
>
>I went to my home-made quarter mile on Highway 64 over the
Jordan Lake causeway. Remember this may be a little more than a true
measured quartermile, is 0.4% grade uphill, and I am timing
with a stopwatch. I do a soft start with my foot off the
pedal. The 235/85R16 tires with 65 psi never broke
loose or smoked in these tests. Gasoline was 87 octane.
>
>Yesterday (a humid 95F day) With KN element, 1/2 tank of
gas I ran:
>18.75
>18.72
>
>This afternoon ( a humid 95F day) with KN, 3/16 tank of gas
I ran:
>18.81
>18.75
>Average= 18.78
>
>Both yesterday & today with the KN there was mild pinging
when rpms went
>+3750, and then a short burst of rapid 'clacks' when the
auto trans made
>its shifts at 4900 rpm. I have found from past driving that
the pinging
>goes away if I use above 90 octane.
>
>Both yesterday and today there was a KN element in the air
filter housing
>that had been cleaned approximately 3000 miles ago. When I
took it out
>today it showed no signs of visible dirt and was dark red
in color. I am
>using the stock factory air filter housing, with the
plastic cold air tube
>going over to the passenger fender wall.
>
>With the 53004383 Mopar paper filter, 3/16 tank of gas I
ran:
>
>18.75
>18.85
>Average= 18.80
>
>I then took the Mopar filter out and re-assembled the air
filter housing
>with no air filter inside. Everything else was the same -
the plastic
>cold air tube was still pulling air from the fender and the
top of the
>housing was clamped on.
>
>With NO FILTER element, 3/16 tank of gas I ran:
>18.72
>18.68
>Average= 18.70
>
>During these two runs without any air filter it seemed to
me that the
>pinging above 3750 rpm was still mild, but a little louder
and more
>frequent. The noise of the engine seemed slightly louder
without an air
>filter.
>
>I put the Mopar paper filter in and drove the truck home.
I could not
>feel any difference versus the KN filter.

{if I were to run this test again I would use two trucks making the runs together but where the filters were switched at each run, and would probably time 40 to 70 mph accelerations in 3rd gear up a 6% grade hill with 1000 lb loads in the beds for better and more 'real world' relevance}

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? [Re: DPelletier] #129389
09/30/08 12:14 PM
09/30/08 12:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,046
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,046
U.S.S.A.
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting thread. There was a heated debate some time ago on one of the Cummin's diesel sites where arguably filtration is even more important due to high boost pressures and "dusting" of turbo blades, etc. and after much arguing there was a test done on a 400 + hp engine and the result of a K&N drop in vs. the stock paper was that there was zero difference in output.

That information coupled with reports of particulate on the turbo blades of trucks equipped with the K&N prompted me to remove mine and replace the factory filter. Some people swear by them and it seems to generate as much emotion as an oil thread.


YMMV

Dave




I'd like to see that test as I did a test of my own and got completly different results , though not the exact same test .

My 2000 ram with a Cummins made 377hp at the rear wheels on 3 consecutive pulls , I was running the LONG K+N cone filter that was the rage then , I had borrwed it from a friend to test it before buying one. Later that evening I put my truck back on the dyno and ran it again but this time I was down 15hp, made a couple more pulls and couldn't figure out why. Suddenly I remember I put back the stock airbox with the stock paper filter, I popped open the top of the filter housing and propped it open with the paper filter, make another pull and my lost 15HP returned , pulled it off the dyno and proceeded to twist the output shaft off the end of the OD unit.

YMMV




Sorry John, that was a long time ago ( back then I spent more time on the TDR than I do on Moparts now! ) What I CAN tell you from memory is that the test I saw was for the drop-in replacement K&N vs. the stock set-up so I suspect your 15hp came from the removal of the airbox.

After spending significant time researching the subject and some very passionate arguments from both sides, I came away with the feeling that the K&N offers little to no performance advantage and that it likely has inferior filtration (especially on a turbocharged engine). Most of the other TDR members came to the same conclusion and went with what is now referred to as the BHAF (Big Honkin Air Filter) which is a large cylindrical paper filter.

People can run whatever they like, but at $10k a pop, I didn't feel like experimenting with my Cumminses.


Dave




I was on the TDR alot back then also , I ran the BHAF for a while and I know have a AFE II on it , run the stock box in the winter .

Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? [Re: JohnRR] #129390
09/30/08 12:28 PM
09/30/08 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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DPelletier Offline
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DPelletier  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
Quote:


I was on the TDR alot back then also , I ran the BHAF for a while and I know have a AFE II on it , run the stock box in the winter .




Just out of curiousity, what was your username there?


Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: Has anyone done this test with K&N air filters? [Re: IronWolf] #129391
09/30/08 10:40 PM
09/30/08 10:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,007
Salem
Grizzly Offline
Moparts Proctologist
Grizzly  Offline
Moparts Proctologist

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,007
Salem
Quote:

Correct, that's why the auto manufacturers give us $ 2 batteries and $ 4 dollar tires.

Let me weep while they go out of business . How about laying off useless executives (who keep their cakewalk jobs for 30 years despite dismal results) and cutting back on dividends ???






Mo' Farts

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