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Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: AndyF] #1275300
07/28/12 10:53 PM
07/28/12 10:53 PM
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Thumperdart Offline
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Quote:

I guess I was assuming the heads were MW size. If they aren't MW size then that is a different problem.

A 447 with good MW heads and 15:1 compression will make tons of power if the valvetrain can handle the rpm. Even the 850 carb will make a bunch of power as long as the intake and heads are good.


I ageee to a point but really think more carb would produce more power. I can`t remember any of my motors NOT picking up power w/a bigger carb especially at those higher revs.


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275301
07/28/12 11:27 PM
07/28/12 11:27 PM
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Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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A 450 inch engine with standard ports will typically have a torque peak at less than 5000 rpm. So if you're shifting at 7000 you are probably way past the power peak.

Going with MW ports would raise the torque peak by about 1200 rpm and consequently give you more power. A 7000 rpm shift point would seem in the ballpark with MW heads, maybe even a little higher.

I still think the cam is way too big for the rest of the combination. The port window is telling the engine that the torque peak should happen at 4500 rpm and the cam is telling the engine that the torque peak should happen at 6000 rpm. So at 4500 rpm the port flow is happy but you have an EGR effect due to the long duration. At 6000 rpm the cam is happy but the small port window keeps the air from moving.

There are tricks that the class racers do to get around a mismatch like this, but there isn't any reason for you to do all that work. If you want to go faster then pull the heads and have them ported to MW size. Otherwise get with Dwayne or Brian or someone like that and sort out a cam that works matches your port size. If the torque peak is 4500 rpm then change the gears to suit.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: AndyF] #1275302
07/28/12 11:30 PM
07/28/12 11:30 PM
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Oregon
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You could also put the .590 back in to see what happens. I bet the car would be faster. But putting the .590 back in probably is a pain since you would need different springs and pushrods and lifters. It would most likely be less expensive to just put a smaller roller cam in there. That is usually only $300 or so.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: AndyF] #1275303
07/28/12 11:37 PM
07/28/12 11:37 PM
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SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Are these the newer style (heart shaped chambers)?
If you can remove your headers, and look in the ex. ports you will see a fuel trail on the floor of the port. If it's wide, like more than 3/8" then the cam is wasting too much intake charge out the exhaust.

With that compression you really need a MW port. Even at altitude!
Try lashing the cam hard, like .035 hot and see if it picks up any e.t. or mph.
I think your intake tract is too small for what your doing and the cam is a bit wrong, but not horrible.
Brian


Brian Hafliger
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1275304
07/29/12 01:32 AM
07/29/12 01:32 AM
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Posts: 103
NEW JERSEY
BIGSPEED Offline
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NEW JERSEY
Are you sure the Compression ratio is 15.3.Was the head cc checked .dome volume fluid checked .gasket ccs and deck height checked.Cam is wrong,the heads have the potential to make good power,Flow numbers and crossectional areas of the head and manifold would help in diagnosis .Bill C.


Ceralli Racing Engines & Checkered Flag Machine Racing engines , CNC porting & induction development http://www.checkeredflagmachine.net/
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: BIGSPEED] #1275305
07/29/12 01:52 AM
07/29/12 01:52 AM
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Posts: 423
Cascade, CO
reknapp52 Offline OP
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These are the numbers used for calculating compression: Bore is 4.36, stroke is 3.75, deck heighth of piston is 0, gasket is .040, combustion chamber is 75CC, piston dome is 21CC. Maybe someone can check the math--it wouldn't be the first mistake I've made!

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275306
07/29/12 07:18 AM
07/29/12 07:18 AM
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U.S.
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Quote:

These are the numbers used for calculating compression: Bore is 4.36, stroke is 3.75, deck heighth of piston is 0, gasket is .040, combustion chamber is 75CC, piston dome is 21CC. Maybe someone can check the math--it wouldn't be the first mistake I've made!




http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html


Mopar Performance
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275307
07/29/12 10:15 AM
07/29/12 10:15 AM
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Aubrey, Texas
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oldtimer5151 Offline
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The new heads increased the flow but changed the velocity of the flow. The dual pattern cam did not help.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: oldtimer5151] #1275308
07/29/12 10:28 AM
07/29/12 10:28 AM
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ill
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dennismopar73 Offline
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The heads is not in question, they should be a pick up over his 915 !
The heads will like to be run at a higher rpm package than what he has ran before, maybe as much as 1100 more rpm .
the bigger the port the more air that is there you have to move, That air ,The cam is not one that I would have picked, even if it was laying around,
The '590' maybe a little better 'choice' with the 1.6 rockers, having said that,, think I would call my cam maker, say this is what I have , and know!
what is better with the combo I have run ?

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: dennismopar73] #1275309
07/29/12 11:02 AM
07/29/12 11:02 AM
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Apollo, PA.
B1MAXX Offline
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A 287 at .050 cam slows my 512" 1.5-2 tenths from a cam that is 274 at .050..... My opinion change cam.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275310
07/29/12 11:06 AM
07/29/12 11:06 AM
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Posts: 16,925
NC
440Jim Offline
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Quote:


Old combo:915 heads with very mild back-yard port job, Venolia domed pistons, Howards aluminum rods,MP .590 flat tappet cam, Crane 1.5 rockers,Torker manifold, Holley 850 DP carb...

Changes made:Edelbrock Victor heads, Hughes 1.6 rockers, Edelbrock Victor 2886 intake, the above mentioned Comp Cams cam




My 2-cents:
1) Changing from a Torker to Victor 383 intake was a good idea
Victor 383 info sheet The attached comparison is a milder motor, but FYI.

2) The headers sound good.
3) It is likely the heads just don't flow a lot more than the 915's (~78cc ?). But they did show a gain OOTB.
4) That is a weird cam choice, but I just don't know.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: B1MAXX] #1275311
07/29/12 11:06 AM
07/29/12 11:06 AM
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Posts: 423
Cascade, CO
reknapp52 Offline OP
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I did go to the Comp Cams website on Thursday and filled out the camshaft recommendation form, but have not gotten a reply back yet. A side note: I noticed that valve lash changes .008 to.010 from cold to hot with the aluminum heads.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275312
07/29/12 11:17 AM
07/29/12 11:17 AM
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NC
440Jim Offline
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Quote:

These are the numbers used for calculating compression: Bore is 4.36, stroke is 3.75, deck heighth of piston is 0, gasket is .040, combustion chamber is 75CC, piston dome is 21CC. Maybe someone can check the math--it wouldn't be the first mistake I've made!


I calculate the same CR, ~15.3 assuming zero deck.
But if the CH of the piston isn't perfectly matched to the deck height, the CR is still likely over 14.0. i.e. 0.027 below the deck (not including dome) for aluminum rods (piston to head) gives 14.1 CR

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275313
07/29/12 11:17 AM
07/29/12 11:17 AM
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LONG ISLAND
fishy340 Offline
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IT'S NOT THE HEADS!

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: fishy340] #1275314
07/29/12 11:55 AM
07/29/12 11:55 AM
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Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
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Charleston
Did u try adding some jet to the carb?


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
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performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275315
07/29/12 09:25 PM
07/29/12 09:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,496
So. Burlington, Vt.
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that cam is actually fairly typical for a std port window 440-ish sized motor in a lite bracket car.
although, its not what i would have recommended for the elevation you race at.
a little less duration, and a little wider lsa to help try and keep some of that precious air in the motor so you can get some work out of it.

those lobes will want a fair amount of spring pressure to maintain full control of the valvetrain with 1.6 rockers and 7200+ type of rpms.
i'd say at least 250 seat/650 open as a minimum.

all that being said, i dont think theres going to be any cam thats going to end up being some "silver bullet" type of cure.

if they are the newer version heads, i thought i saw where Brain said the low lift numbers were a bit soft OOTB.

i would see if you could borrow a dominator from a friend and see what that does.


68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: fast68plymouth] #1275316
03/18/13 12:18 PM
03/18/13 12:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 423
Cascade, CO
reknapp52 Offline OP
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Here's an update to my setup as of 03/2013: I moved the cam centerline from 106 to 111. Re-installed the 4:30 rear gears, and went to larger jets in the 850 Holley carb (79s primary, with PV, and 88s in the secondaries, wanted 80s in the pri side, but didn't have them with me). In Phoenix,with DAs in the 1000' range, and 1.82 sec on the throttle stop, the car netted 154 MPH on a couple passes--7 MPH more than previous best. BTW, lost 1st round at the AZ Nationals, lost 1st round at the divisional event, went to the 3rd round at the regional event.

Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275317
03/18/13 01:02 PM
03/18/13 01:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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sixpackgut Offline
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Charleston
congrats


Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram

performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275318
03/18/13 01:30 PM
03/18/13 01:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
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Sounds like it came around for ya........... NICE........


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: A Little Disappointed--Victor Heads [Re: reknapp52] #1275319
03/18/13 03:02 PM
03/18/13 03:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 206
indy
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not to hijack but i have a similiar experience with installing a small roller with almost exact same specs. went from a mopar .620 cam with 1.6 rockers to a cam dynamics .660 same specs as op. changes were to new springs, 1.5 rockers, and pushrods for length. i installed it at 106 as called for on cam card as i didnt check p/v clearance at different installed c/l. i netted no change at all. car has been fastest with the old comp cam .650 cam installed at 101 c/l. that cam has 290@.050, go figure.

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