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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: Glen440]
#12478
07/29/04 12:19 AM
07/29/04 12:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Good question Glen, at 400 cubes it might rev higher than the valvetrain would be able to keep up with! A 6500 rpm hp peak at ~500 inches would be ~8400  on a 400, might be an interessting combo in a light tire limited car. Wow only 2 days and over 1000 hits on this thread!!
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: Streetwize]
#12479
07/29/04 12:47 AM
07/29/04 12:47 AM
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Anonymous
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Would that be 8400?I was thinking 7800 rpm. 
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
#12480
07/29/04 12:52 AM
07/29/04 12:52 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I was thinking that a 400 is 20% smaller than a 500 so it would have to rev 20% higher.If the 500 peaks at 6500 then the 400 would peak at 7800 wouldn't it?Where did I go wrong?  Oh well it's late and nothing makes sense this late anyways. 
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: M_D]
#12482
07/29/04 08:54 AM
07/29/04 08:54 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Yeah, 8125..theoretically using 500", I mistakenly used my own 517" @ 6500 in the calculation, came out to 8401 @ 400...sorry
Actually, I think it might be higher that 8125 as a very good port on a short stroke motor might actually acheive a higher VE at the same "mathematical" airflow, in that respect even though the torque would drop, it would do so at a proportionally slower rate and if it could still gain rpm the power peak would likely be higher. That's part of why short strokes are favored in high RPM applications.
Last edited by Streetwize; 07/29/04 08:56 AM.
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: RyanJ]
#12483
07/29/04 09:56 AM
07/29/04 09:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,498
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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i dont know Ryan.....i still think that $4400 for a set of bare castings that arent vastly superior to some of the other stuff out there that costs a lot less $$$, is a big chunk of change.
where is the special niche that these heads are going to fill that will justify the cost?
these heads arent going to make the "big" power numbers on a large cube motor....not like a set of B1's or 572-13's will....they just arent big enough.
so, why tie up $6500 in some heads that arent big enough to support the big cubes, and build a 500"+/- motor, when for the same kind of total cash outlay you could build a 540 or 572 with different heads, and make more power.
i think in a 450-500ci package they are going to be great heads....with more difference than some of the other offerings showing up on the lower end if that CI scale.
at 500", i think the std B1's are going to make more power....at a much lower cost.
and, they dont need a $2200 CNC program porting job done to them to get 380+cfm from them(i have a set here that had a quick home port job done to them that flow over 380cfm).
so, regardless of how much R&D went into them, and the fact that they flow very good numbers for their runner size....the fact is that on a dollar per HP scale, they dont really stack up all that well.
B1 Ken has an 875hp motor using std B1's that he has about $9000 into, for the whole motor.
if you start out with the Chapman VI's and end up having $6500 in the top end....that only leaves $2500 to build the rest of the motor.
IMO, MP missed the mark on these heads by making them so expensive.
the object is to make parts that people will buy. if you price things too high, they dont sell.
there just isnt any justifiable reason why a std stage VI head should cost any more than a B1 head or an Indy head....it certainly isnt made any better.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#12484
07/29/04 10:56 AM
07/29/04 10:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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Dwayne,
Good points all around, and I agree that their domain is in the 500" range, much above that and a bigger motor is typically not gonna be upset by the much larger (B1 size) runners.
I'm impressed with thier flow/runner ratio, put another way a ~365cc B1 or INDY port would need to flow 360 @ .400 and ~470 at .650 to equal their efficiency.
They're perfect for what I'm planning to do (especially since I got them for a little more than 1/2 price) and not everybody wants a big hp high RPM motor with a relatively narrow powerband. I doubt a B1(even if it were legal) would have won the Engine masters 2500-6500 highest average TQ/HP contest, at least not without a lot of epoxy. When you start to realize that within 5 or so years I think DFI is going to become the new dominant method of fuel delivery, port efficiency and smaller cross section (at least partly because the mass/volume of the fuel doesn't need to occupy any runner space in the manifold), I think the trend will continue to be toward "faster" flowing runners.
Last edited by Streetwize; 07/29/04 11:02 AM.
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#12485
07/29/04 11:32 AM
07/29/04 11:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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Quote:
i dont know Ryan.....i still think that $4400 for a set of bare castings that arent vastly superior to some of the other stuff out there that costs a lot less $$$, is a big chunk of change.
where is the special niche that these heads are going to fill that will justify the cost?
these heads arent going to make the "big" power numbers on a large cube motor....not like a set of B1's or 572-13's will....they just arent big enough.
so, why tie up $6500 in some heads that arent big enough to support the big cubes, and build a 500"+/- motor, when for the same kind of total cash outlay you could build a 540 or 572 with different heads, and make more power.
i think in a 450-500ci package they are going to be great heads....with more difference than some of the other offerings showing up on the lower end if that CI scale.
at 500", i think the std B1's are going to make more power....at a much lower cost.
and, they dont need a $2200 CNC program porting job done to them to get 380+cfm from them(i have a set here that had a quick home port job done to them that flow over 380cfm).
so, regardless of how much R&D went into them, and the fact that they flow very good numbers for their runner size....the fact is that on a dollar per HP scale, they dont really stack up all that well.
B1 Ken has an 875hp motor using std B1's that he has about $9000 into, for the whole motor.
if you start out with the Chapman VI's and end up having $6500 in the top end....that only leaves $2500 to build the rest of the motor.
IMO, MP missed the mark on these heads by making them so expensive.
the object is to make parts that people will buy. if you price things too high, they dont sell.
there just isnt any justifiable reason why a std stage VI head should cost any more than a B1 head or an Indy head....it certainly isnt made any better.
LOL Again, I'm not arguing that they are a good value per $ (IMO they are'nt), all I wanted to point out was that it is more or less Chapman setting the price on them not MP. And if it was MP's bright idea to come out with this head, full knowing what it would cost in the end, then you are right, they missed the boat once AGAIN at what customers are really going to go buy and want. Then again they miss the boat every day though, so should'nt be surprising.
But my guess is with a grand total of 35 CNC heads currently on the shelf, they will in time sell them all. They've had NUMEROUS NUMEROUS Chapman CNC W7/8 heads with special part #'s over the years with outrageous prices, and stuff always ends up selling out eventually. The set of 8's I'm trying to snag right now were a low production Chapman CNC head that has a MP CNC part #, list price was $3250 on them each. 
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: RyanJ]
#12486
07/29/04 12:21 PM
07/29/04 12:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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Well I can ad a little to the Chapman debate. I have a set of Chapman CNC'ed heads here in the garage. We ran the same set of heads on the Camaro we used to heads up race. They cost $1300 a piece bare. The flow numbers are similar to what you see from the Stage VI's, albeit it with much larger runners. Of course they are sold through Edelbrock not Chevrolet. Perhaps at some point Edelbrock may see fit to do the same with the BB Mopar head, would be interesting to see the results and cost for such an animal. I also dont understand all the up roar about the MP price. The real surprise would be that they would come out with a part at a good price. I mean pretty much everything is overpriced, so it is nothing new..I do also agree with Ryan that they will sell all they can make too..Some guys are just die hards I guess.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#12487
07/29/04 12:40 PM
07/29/04 12:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
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well, they are out of my range, but it does seem like MP missed the mark here. The W series heads were and are still used in professional racing, in many classes..WoO, Nextel, Busch, drag racing, you name it. The big block is out of these classes..Has been for years. So why target a market share that's so much smaller? They have priced them out of the range of weekend street/racers. The program is impressive, but if the machine can cut them, they can be hand done, and $1400 will get a lot done. Edelbrock doesnt offer the cnc stuff becuase they are targetting the biggest crowd. The guys who say for a few hundred more, I'll use the edddys. MP expects the same group to say I'll spend the extra thousands? Dont think so. They look great for smaller (under 470) bracket big blocks, that can rev. Those racers will see the quality, and the potential, and dont mind spending the $. But like Fast says, If I were building a motor like that, I'd put more cubes into it, and use the cheaper heads that can feed them. just another opinion...As I said, they are way beyond me...But dollars/ET, they dont make sense to me either. 
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: moper]
#12488
07/29/04 02:03 PM
07/29/04 02:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,498
So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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one other thought about the cost of the Chapman CNC'ing process.....
while i agree that they are a leader in this area, $2000+ for the port work is just too much money.
the ICH 572-13 top end package one of my friends bought got their CNC port job....which from an appearance standpoint doesnt look much different than the Chapman VI's do....and that was only an $800 option.
i think Chapman is trying to recoupe their investment with too few a number of pieces sold.
i cant believe the Chapman machinery takes 2 1/2 times as long to port the heads as the ICH equipment does.
i spoke with one of the bigger engine shops that does Busch and Nextel stuff, and they do their own CNC porting....and they said it takes about 4hrs for the machine to port an 18deg Busch head.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123
Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: M_D]
#12489
07/29/04 02:28 PM
07/29/04 02:28 PM
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Anonymous
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MD is right about the 8125 rpm. I did the math on the way to work this morning.500 being 25% bigger than 400 and not 20. 
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#12490
07/29/04 05:04 PM
07/29/04 05:04 PM
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JohnRR
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i'll repeat it again , chapman is not a source for the head , i am going to go out on a limb here and guess that MP is marking up what chapman is charging for the CNC work .
a perfect example is the lift pump on the 98.5 - 2002 cummins , i can buy it from cummins for about 140 bucks , mopar , over 400 .
and like streetwize , if i didn't get a smoking deal on them i'd be waiting on the MP fire sale of these heads .
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: JohnRR]
#12491
07/29/04 06:44 PM
07/29/04 06:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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Quote:
i'll repeat it again , chapman is not a source for the head , i am going to go out on a limb here and guess that MP is marking up what chapman is charging for the CNC work .
No, the heads are coming out of the Zeus Foundry, under MP contract, designed in the Chrysler Technology center, using a MP casting core box....The heads are MP DESIGNED castings, I don't know who is doing the initial Machining, it used to be Arrow or Galaxy that was doing stuff like the plug holes, bolt holes etc, but Chapman is installing the guides and seats and doing the CNC work......I'll stand by my statement that MP is not marking up these heads much at all, when all is said and done between modifying the cores, doing a new casting run at Zeus etc etc.... These are such a limited run head, there is no way they will pocket dime one on these heads, they will be a net loss for Diamler IMO when all is said and done.
I can't say for 100% sure what if any markup tehre is on those particular heads but MP made the mistake of inadvertently allowing a Chapman Machining Invoice attached to the side of a box of CNC W9's I had here and based on the MP pricing of those heads, they were not marking them up much at all... It's just one of those deals where, if I knew EXACTLY how much they had in the bare castings, between engineering, R&D, Paying the foundry, and paying for initial maching of head bolt holes etc, I could tell you exact markup, but as of now I'm just GUESSING as to the costs they have in the bare castings, but even if I guess low, the markup ain't much.... They definitely rip people off on the markup of some stuff (like the MP .001" oversize main bearings for SB    ) But the Chapman heads are'nt one of those things IMO.
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: RyanJ]
#12492
07/29/04 06:51 PM
07/29/04 06:51 PM
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JohnRR
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ryan , what i am trying to say , incase i missed it in your reply , is that the only place you can buy a chapman cnc'd stage 6 head is FROM MP , chapman is NOT allowed to sell them .
edit , i see that chapamn is part of the crazy pricing ... ok ....
i know they are zues , chrysler changed foundries , part of the reason for the almost 2 year wait by chapman for the cores i'll bet , when i tryed to get them for the EM last may they had been waiting 18 MONTHS at that point for the cores .
by the way MP does also list a part number for that zues casting in a rawish state so someone can do their own CNC work and or hogging by hand ...
Last edited by JohnRR; 07/29/04 06:55 PM.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: AndyF]
#12494
07/29/04 09:39 PM
07/29/04 09:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,142
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Chapman seems to be the premier CNC porting shop at this stage, and are currently charging premier prices . I haven't had the pleasure of witnessing the machining service for myself, but have done alot of 3D Aerospace machining in the past. Now if these heads were one of the first sets of heads to come out of Chapmans shop, I could understand the high cost. As we know , to do these heads, specialized machinery is required, which is generally not found in your everyday engineering jobbing shop, so the cost of the initial purchase of their 5 Axis, or horizontal Machining center with a 4th axis, or whatever they are using would be factored into their intitial cost. Tooling would be another, specialized carbide ball end cutters etc. Their 3D software program, depending on what's being used, the software could cost anywhere from a few thousand to over $10000, I am really only familar with SurfCAM and UniGraphics, Uni Graphics as a package in Australia cost a tad over $20000 Aud. Chapman have been doing CNC head porting for some time now, and were really one of the few companies doing it, so I guess it still understandable their prices are still high. When some more competition in the market comes about, then I would expect to see their prices come down. I have seen a couple different Chapman heads, both being Edelbrock Ford heads, and their work is quite nice. I do agree with Dwayne, there wouldn't be a huge amount of time in them, the CNC ported stuff I have seen usually has a 0.040"-0.060" step over, which isn't that tight really. Most general finishing on 3D stuff I have done has been 0.5mm, and 0.1mm on the small fine stuff . So depending on feed rates, spindle speeds etc, I would guess 4-5 hours to be about right with a roughing and finishing cut. Just to finish, a friend of mine has a set of Chevy heads that Dart CNC ported for him, they are their new 11* big chiefs of something like that, the CNC port job was around $2500US on the pair, but these things flow just under 550cfm @ 0.900" Something like that I would expect to pay that kind of $$$, looks like MP got it wrong again, lol
AL...
Alan Jones
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: JohnRR]
#12495
07/29/04 10:18 PM
07/29/04 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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Quote:
by the way MP does also list a part number for that zues casting in a rawish state so someone can do their own CNC work and or hogging by hand ...
John what is the part # for the Unported 6's with raised spring pockets? I just want to go look up the price....
BTW I'm guessing almost all of Chapmans new CNC Programs are written on a computer rather than digitizing someone's hand porting, which is what lower end CNC shops do, and what used to be the "industry standard". Today the BIG big $ stuff is all designed on puter, and then just punched into a raw small casting. I guess most of you have never seen a bare W8 head... It's actually designed to be CNC only... Ports are the size of my thumb before the whittling process begins. I'd be curious to see what the Chaps look like before porting. I'll be posting some pics of quite a bit of Chapman CNC stuff and I'll throw in some bare 8 pics in the next few months, as I've come into some stuff (17 sets) and am helping the owner unload it. Almost all of it is Chapman CNC of some variety...(W series junk LOL) The first set of Chapman 9's are arriving tomorrow. Pics and flow results will be imminent.
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Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today!
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#12497
07/30/04 12:30 PM
07/30/04 12:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,875
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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I usually start to lose interest whenever a Tech thread morphs into an Enonomic and Marketing debate;  All I was interested in at first was volunteering my heads to see what these pup's really flowed and sharing it with whoever might be interested. Good or bad, at least we'd know. If they wouldn't fall out of a tree, doom on me, but at least I shared so noone would need to make the same mistake. Apparently there was some interest, check the number of hits!
But since economics is the topic today, my .02 on it is that it looks as though I got 'em for a reasonable price. The real "ideal" saleable price is somewhere between what I paid and whatever they get for them. Retail was ~$1700 each (Summit once had them for $3400/pr), now it's apparently over $2000. That's too bad 'cause they're good heads pricing aside.
I can't really say that I blame Chapman, after all there is nothing "patentable" about their work, it won't take long for people to map out what they did and potentially clone them. After all, what's to stop Edelbrock from making knock-offs of them now? Edelbrock is a Public company and they have their own foundries and a whole supply chain in place, economy of scale as Fast correctly points out. So Chapman's only real shot on a limited production is to make back what they can, MP obviously doesn't have the vision to realize if they really made more than a half-a$$ed attempt at getting into the higher volume/lower margin aftermarket (i.e., go head to head with Edelbrock for the Mopar Market) they could do very well. By the same measure, Koffel could step-up and bring the off-the-shelf price to whatever the year-end price is, obviously they're not selling them at a loss for the lower price.
They are expensive heads, but to look at it another way we have a streetable head on par
in flow and price with a Yates Head and they don't exactly give those away either. I think I'd rather pay a bit higher price for something that works than a lower price for something that apparently doesn't live up to the hype without a lot of supplementary help(EX: Bulldogs).
The fact is, Most Racers aren't retail marketing guys, and in many ways I'm glad of that....think about it.
Last edited by Streetwize; 07/30/04 10:10 PM.
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