Posted By: Streetwize
Fast flowed my Chapmans today ! - 07/27/04 01:57 AM
Some of you know I sent one of my Chapman 285cc Max Wedge Stage VI's up to Dwayne, he sent me back the numbers. I'll wait to see if he chimes in with some Commentary.
Fast flowed my Chapmans today !
Posted By: Silver70
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 02:13 AM
Thats cool... make us wait 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 02:20 AM
i wish i knew he had those when i was talking to him earlier today. fess up wize, what are the numbers. don't make me write up a new bill for that crank, LOL.
Posted By: Ramcharger
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 02:26 AM
C'mon now, where's the numbers? 
Posted By: StrokerPost
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 02:50 AM
Quote:
I'll wait to see if he chimes in with some Commentary.
Why do guys do this???????
The old bait & switch. SHOW US SOME NUMBERS ALREADY!! Pretty please?
Posted By: J_BODY
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:01 AM
I still have the numbers from my antique stage VI heads that Dwayne did. It will be interesting to see how they vary.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:06 AM
OH great, now i'll be sitting here ALL night waiting for the #'s.... thanks
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:14 AM
OK...here goes straight from Dwayne's E-mail to me this evening:
Lift" I/E
.100 72.5/58.2
.200 153.7/118.6
.300 224.3/178.2
.400 285.2/218.2
.500 329.6/232.8
.600 361.9/245.1 (edit-read wrong column)
.650 368.1/249.9
.700 364/253.1
.750 364/254.7
.800 364/256.3
Through .600 lift they are dead on (within ~1% either way) with Chapmans website numbers published here:
http://chapmanracingheads.com/p_Specification.asp?ID=80
It's nice to see "Real" Moparts numbers off of "Our" bench, makes me feel better about them that they've been flowed by Fast Hisself
I asked Dwayne why they apparently "stalled" at .700 especially when they were still slightly climbing from .600 to .650; On the Chapman bench they apparently peaked at 381 @.750. I'm not going to be running a cam much bigger than ~.680 but I'm still curious about that.
I have the other one and I must say, they look really nice, Kinda reminds me of a scaled up last gen SBC NASCAR head.
They seem to be....adequate
Anyway...there ya go!!
Lift" I/E
.100 72.5/58.2
.200 153.7/118.6
.300 224.3/178.2
.400 285.2/218.2
.500 329.6/232.8
.600 361.9/245.1 (edit-read wrong column)
.650 368.1/249.9
.700 364/253.1
.750 364/254.7
.800 364/256.3
Through .600 lift they are dead on (within ~1% either way) with Chapmans website numbers published here:
http://chapmanracingheads.com/p_Specification.asp?ID=80
It's nice to see "Real" Moparts numbers off of "Our" bench, makes me feel better about them that they've been flowed by Fast Hisself
I asked Dwayne why they apparently "stalled" at .700 especially when they were still slightly climbing from .600 to .650; On the Chapman bench they apparently peaked at 381 @.750. I'm not going to be running a cam much bigger than ~.680 but I'm still curious about that.
I have the other one and I must say, they look really nice, Kinda reminds me of a scaled up last gen SBC NASCAR head.
They seem to be....adequate
Anyway...there ya go!!
Posted By: ProSport
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:18 AM
Nice!! Those ought to run good!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:20 AM
Sweet mother of all that is unholy!!! Now that some flow.
Those #'s make my ported Ebrocks look like a 2hp briggs-stratton head.
P.S. thanks 4 not making me stay up all night waiting.
Those #'s make my ported Ebrocks look like a 2hp briggs-stratton head.
P.S. thanks 4 not making me stay up all night waiting.
Posted By: FastOne
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:26 AM
Looks awesome to me, my whole 360 engine could breathe from one port
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:39 AM
Bobby, those heads are way too big for that cam. i think you need to send those down to me and i'll send something back that'll be more useful...no point in wasting a good set of heads... 
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:44 AM
Dan,
Gosh, that's awful kind of you, buddy <sniff!>
Gosh, that's awful kind of you, buddy <sniff!>
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:44 AM
Just give them to me . I will be your friend
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:51 AM
The funny thing is...I'm Hoping Dwayne can Elaborate, But the ports don't really look THAT BIG, The Indy-1 is Noticably bigger in total area and I've seen several SR's taken to bigger than this 285cc's. The exhaust looks like nothing special at all EXCEPT that both ports have WAYYY better short sides than anything I've seen on a Big Block Short of the B1. Again it looks to me very much like the pre SB2 NASCAR SBC port shape...only proportionally bigger. You really don't notice it at first glance but when you really start looking at the roof to long side turn it doesn't bottleneck the port like a standard VI.
Dwayne said he wanted to take some measurements.
By the way, a big thanks
to Chuck Millen @ Best Machine, I know he tried and tried to get MP to get us some valves, really hoped to get numbers off of Both Benches before he sent them to Dwayne.
Dwayne said he wanted to take some measurements.
By the way, a big thanks
to Chuck Millen @ Best Machine, I know he tried and tried to get MP to get us some valves, really hoped to get numbers off of Both Benches before he sent them to Dwayne.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 10:32 AM
Wise, those intake numbers are almost a mirror image of my 440-1s!! Very good flow numbers for sure. R&J that did mine are among the best in the business , so from my point of veiw, you have a dynomite set of heads there. My runners are 365cc, so you have more velocity for a bit wider powerband?
The only differance in flow numbers came above about .500 on the indys, they keep on climbing to 301 cfm at .800. But that may very well be useless, with most everything happening in the midrange lifts anyway. I will be looking for a dyno post in the near future!!
The only differance in flow numbers came above about .500 on the indys, they keep on climbing to 301 cfm at .800. But that may very well be useless, with most everything happening in the midrange lifts anyway. I will be looking for a dyno post in the near future!!
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 11:01 AM
What size bench does Chapman Flow on, and what is Dwayne using these days? I do recall Dwayne telling me ages ago, but I can't remember everything, lol. I do recall Dwayne's bench being conservative regardless.
AL...
AL...
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 12:51 PM
wow wize,nice numbers...you oughta make some serious steam.....those heads flow almost as well as my buddies w8's that best machine is finishing up the motor for.........you should have 800 horse potential with those baby's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 01:36 PM
I wonder if Dwayne will try putting a 2" flow pipe on the exhausts just for grins, Steve Dulcich got like 301!
Looks like a single pattern cam might be in order!!
Looks like a single pattern cam might be in order!!
Posted By: cheapstreetdustr
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 01:37 PM
Quote:
What size bench does Chapman Flow on, and what is Dwayne using these days? I do recall Dwayne telling me ages ago, but I can't remember everything, lol. I do recall Dwayne's bench being conservative regardless.
AL...
actually the better question would be..
what size bore fixture was used?
what was the elevation, pressure?
airflow temps?
;these would be the biggest factors in seing different #s from one to another.
you have to understand conservative is relative.
now this is directed at no-one, just in general.
people have to understand.
proper bore fixture diameter, if not the same will show different results,too small for the heads application "can cause the stall" or lower peak #s
elevation in reguards to sea level is one of the biggest factors for the difference.
id say thats the biggest source of the confusion.
next would be the correction factors.to try to compensate..
just my 2 cents.
anyway
thats good flow in anyones book. id say it'll support "close to" 1000 hp, ive always liked those stage 6's seems they have been under the radar..
cheap..
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 01:54 PM
Cheap,
That's why I was kinda holding off 'till Dwayne arrives; I do know he used the 4.375" bore fixture which is what I'll be running in the 517 low deck.
Like I said, I just feel good that I have "official confirmation" of the Chapman Advertised numbers, If nothing else at least people can consider them as REAL. Steve D said he got the same flows on his bench so it looks like these pups might actually live up to their "Press Kit".
That's why I was kinda holding off 'till Dwayne arrives; I do know he used the 4.375" bore fixture which is what I'll be running in the 517 low deck.
Like I said, I just feel good that I have "official confirmation" of the Chapman Advertised numbers, If nothing else at least people can consider them as REAL. Steve D said he got the same flows on his bench so it looks like these pups might actually live up to their "Press Kit".
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 03:30 PM
Like those numbers. Looks like you have a nice set of heads there for sure.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 04:54 PM
Very nice flow from such a "small" port volume. You may have so much torque at 5000 rpm that you won't know what to do with it! LOL
From memory, Dwayne's flow bench can't flow 350 cfm at 28"H20, so it will be corrected to 28" from the 7" or so it actually pulls. On some other heads, a "bigger" bench that can flow 350 cfm at 28" will tends to keep the flow going at the higher lifts (0.700"). But that is only a rule of thumb, not an absolute.
From memory, Dwayne's flow bench can't flow 350 cfm at 28"H20, so it will be corrected to 28" from the 7" or so it actually pulls. On some other heads, a "bigger" bench that can flow 350 cfm at 28" will tends to keep the flow going at the higher lifts (0.700"). But that is only a rule of thumb, not an absolute.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 04:57 PM
Looks like those heads flow about 20% more than the Edelbrock heads @.600. (I haven't checked all the numbers)
I assume the port volume is a little more than the Eddys but probably not a huge amount more.
I assume the port volume is a little more than the Eddys but probably not a huge amount more.
Posted By: B1Ken
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 05:32 PM
O.K. I'm probably the only person who doesn't know this, but WTF is a Chapman head? How much do they cost?
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 05:36 PM
Quote:
O.K. I'm probably the only person who doesn't know this, but WTF is a Chapman head? How much do they cost?
CNC ported MP stage 6 head , cost
switching to B1's would be cheaper i have a set also ...
Posted By: jamesc
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 10:19 PM
Quote:
O.K. I'm probably the only person who doesn't know this, but WTF is a Chapman head? How much do they cost?
well Ken after talking to you at the Grove i'd hafta say the only way a set would ever be found on your car is if someone gave em to ya.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 11:14 PM
That's impressive for a relatively small port 
It outta run like a bat outta.......heck.
{edited for family consumption}
It outta run like a bat outta.......heck.
{edited for family consumption}
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 11:35 PM
Quote:Quote:
What size bench does Chapman Flow on, and what is Dwayne using these days? I do recall Dwayne telling me ages ago, but I can't remember everything, lol. I do recall Dwayne's bench being conservative regardless.
AL...
actually the better question would be..
what size bore fixture was used?
what was the elevation, pressure?
airflow temps?
;these would be the biggest factors in seing different #s from one to another.
you have to understand conservative is relative.
now this is directed at no-one, just in general.
people have to understand.
proper bore fixture diameter, if not the same will show different results,too small for the heads application "can cause the stall" or lower peak #s
elevation in reguards to sea level is one of the biggest factors for the difference.
id say thats the biggest source of the confusion.
next would be the correction factors.to try to compensate..
just my 2 cents.
everyone is an expert
i think you need to do a little more homework on flow bench design before you start casting a shadow of doubt about whether or not flow data is directly comparable or not.
not all flow bench designs require corrections for weather variables.
from the Superflow website;
"the flowbench measures the ratio of the pressure difference across the orifice, to the pressure across the valve. Both the orifice and the head see air at the same temperature, density, and humidity. A flowbench of this design provides results, which are independent of the atmospheric conditions. In fact, if you put a cylinder head on the flowbench, and run it at a barometric pressure of 24" of mercury, and run it later at 29" mercury, with the same cylinder head, you will get exactly the same flow numbers. You don't have to correct for temperature or correct for pressure. "
my own personal opinion is that you cant directly compare results from any two flowbenches as being 100% equal.
i dont really have anything else to add at this point about these heads.
i was hoping to get some measurements off them today, but as it turned out, i was on the dyno all day.
the bowls "appear" to be pretty generous on both the intake and exhaust side, and there is much more height on the intake short turn than on the original VI's like what were used for the EM470 motor.
i'll paw through my notes and see what the best port on the EM470 heads was for comparison.
as for the port stalling at high lifts....thats more of a "welcome to my world" kinda thing.
the short turn doesnt "feel" like one that would make it to .800 lift on my bench without stalling...and it didnt.
on a bigger bench...who knows.
regardless....these things are pretty impressive in the mid-lifts.
they really put the hurt on the SR's, 440-1's, BD's, in those lower mid-lift ranges....and are impressive up top too.
the only concern i would have with these on a larger CI motor like what Wize is going to build is the port cross section of the exhaust port.
it appears to be a fair amount smaller than a good flowing SR or 440-1....and sometimes when there is a lot of volume to deal with(like on a large displacement motor)....they just need to be bigger.
from the looks of the flow numbers for all 3 versions of the Chapman VI's on the Chapman site, the exhaust ports are done the same for all of them. im sure its overkill for the small version, really good on the middle version....but i feel is a tad small for this version.
i'll have to test it with a 2" tube on it to see how it responds.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 11:47 PM
Man I was wonderin' when you were gonna show up!!
Here's a pretty good shot of the Ex ports:
Here's a pretty good shot of the Ex ports:
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 11:48 PM
Another one....
I call this the 'Welcome to Hooters!!' shot!!
I call this the 'Welcome to Hooters!!' shot!!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/27/04 11:52 PM
Quote:
Another one....
I call this the 'Welcome to Hooters!!' shot!!
Posted By: M_D
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 01:24 AM
Guys and their toys, what can you say? (o)(.) Does one valve guide look off center or is it just me?
(.) Does one valve guide look off center or is it just me?
Posted By: cheapstreetdustr
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 02:42 AM
Dwyane, iam not in disagreement with what you said.
you may have mis understood me.
"not all flow bench designs require corrections for weather variables. "
the key is not all. some do , i wasnt refering to your bench as incorrect/
just that to compare his flow numbers to someone elses #s done elsewhere shouldnt be taken so literally.
and that some bench's do require correction factors/math
they should focus/measure the change. and that one bench cant/should not be compared to another.
are there differences in benchs ?,yes in most cases..
IMO the cream will rise to the top so to speek. people who do there homework will know the diffence..and find out who's doin it right..
but IMO flow #s that get posted should be accompanied by the other data.
like what i mentioned in 1st post..you do agree that it makes a difference yes?
bore fixture size's are important due to valve shrouding.
and temp,baro make a diff. and should be considerd
since none of this ever gets posted along with the #s then the differences would be relative
thats all..
people get bent about the data but dont have all the info..
thats what iam tring to say..
and i like what you said in your world..not having to go super big lifts. i agree with that.
is that Int valve 2.14? or 2.18?
you may have mis understood me.
"not all flow bench designs require corrections for weather variables. "
the key is not all. some do , i wasnt refering to your bench as incorrect/
just that to compare his flow numbers to someone elses #s done elsewhere shouldnt be taken so literally.
and that some bench's do require correction factors/math
they should focus/measure the change. and that one bench cant/should not be compared to another.
are there differences in benchs ?,yes in most cases..
IMO the cream will rise to the top so to speek. people who do there homework will know the diffence..and find out who's doin it right..
but IMO flow #s that get posted should be accompanied by the other data.
like what i mentioned in 1st post..you do agree that it makes a difference yes?
bore fixture size's are important due to valve shrouding.
and temp,baro make a diff. and should be considerd
since none of this ever gets posted along with the #s then the differences would be relative
thats all..
people get bent about the data but dont have all the info..
thats what iam tring to say..
and i like what you said in your world..not having to go super big lifts. i agree with that.
is that Int valve 2.14? or 2.18?
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 03:22 AM
The Valve sizess are (edit)2.25"I & 1.81"E
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 03:50 AM
Watch out you could poke your eyes out with those things 
2.35" intake valves 
2.35" intake valves
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 12:55 PM
The combo I envision is a
517" low deck
12.5:1
These heads
~270/276@.050 mild solid roller
1250 Dommy or.....DFI
2 1/8 headers
Not looking to turn it more than 6800-7000 through the lights.
Anything over 800 is a bonus, rather keep the revs down
~2950lb A body of some sort
4 speed
4.10 or 4.30 gears
29.5" x 12-ish" DOTs
Just want an E-Z wheels-up nothing radical 9 second street car.
517" low deck
12.5:1
These heads
~270/276@.050 mild solid roller
1250 Dommy or.....DFI
2 1/8 headers
Not looking to turn it more than 6800-7000 through the lights.
Anything over 800 is a bonus, rather keep the revs down
~2950lb A body of some sort
4 speed
4.10 or 4.30 gears
29.5" x 12-ish" DOTs
Just want an E-Z wheels-up nothing radical 9 second street car.
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 02:39 PM
Quote:
the key is not all. some do , i wasnt refering to your bench as incorrect/
just that to compare his flow numbers to someone elses #s done elsewhere shouldnt be taken so literally.
and that some bench's do require correction factors/math
they should focus/measure the change
well, if someone is using a bench that requires correction calculations for changes in atmospheric conditions, then they should be posting corrected flow numbers.
the corrected numbers "should" be able to be compared to the numbers taken from a bench that uses no correction factors.
looking at uncorrected flow numbers from that type of flow bench is like looking at uncorrected HP numbers from an engine dyno, and not knowing the atmospheric conditions for the tests were. those numbers would more or less be meaningless.
Quote:
but IMO flow #s that get posted should be accompanied by the other data.
like what i mentioned in 1st post..you do agree that it makes a difference yes?
bore fixture size's are important due to valve shrouding.
and temp,baro make a diff. and should be considerd
since none of this ever gets posted along with the #s then the differences would be relative
i agree that the bore fixture diameter has an impact on the flow numbers....but i dont think you've let it sink in yet that temp, baro, altitude, air density, etc, do not make any difference to the flow numbers from the type of flowbench that SuperFlow manufactures, and therefore dont need to be listed, or considered. they have no impact on the flow numbers.
this is the most common type of flowbench design(and some other brands of benches use this same principle).
IMO, if the flow numbers listed are from a bench that requires atmospheric corrections, and the corrected numbers are NOT what are shown....only then would the atmospheric data be relevant.
its just like corrected dyno numbers. you shouldnt need to know what the weather was if youre looking at corrected numbers.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 02:54 PM
Maybe we can/should get the Mods to add these to the BB head flow data chart in the Archives.
Posted By: M_D
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 07:35 PM
What is the valve length again, or how how much are the spring seats raised? Did they raise the rocker stands also?
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 07:46 PM
Valves are 5.400" vs 4.86", don't know how much the pockets are raised but they're fairly shallow, not plunge cut like "normal" Stage VI's. The roof to bowl is definately higher and the short side is a good bit longer, they have a pretty nice sweep/transition from port to bowl on both the long and short sides.
Rocker stands are milled flat, they need custom pedestal blocks to work.
Rocker stands are milled flat, they need custom pedestal blocks to work.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 08:03 PM
What kind of installed hieght and diameter springs do you think will fit on these, if you use all the tricks, like +.100 retainers ?
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 08:52 PM
It's a shame that the Chapman stuff is sooo costly compared to what else is on the market, because these things on paper would be one of the best BB heads out there at the moment. The only downside is they would probably cost more than a set of B1's, or come close anyway. I wonder why no one has done a program for B1's yet??? Sorry for the hijack Bobby, I'll let you all get back to your regular program
AL...
AL...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 09:27 PM
Quote:
The only downside is they would probably cost more than a set of B1's, or come close anyway.
AL...
no the bare heads alone cost more than the B1 sale at the end of the year
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 09:28 PM
John, please don't tell me that a set of Chapmans cost more than a set of complete B1 heads? With or without porting??
AL...
AL...
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 09:31 PM
A complete set of Chapmans at list price is about 2x what the entire B1 top end sells for.
Koffels sells the original B1 package for $3800 I think. That package includes the heads, valves, rocker arms, manifold, valve covers, etc. Chapmans are what, $6000 for the heads alone?
Koffels sells the original B1 package for $3800 I think. That package includes the heads, valves, rocker arms, manifold, valve covers, etc. Chapmans are what, $6000 for the heads alone?
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 09:47 PM
I know that there is alot of work in CNC stuff, refining the programs , initial development etc, but it would appear that they are
1/ Not getting a good deal on the castings?
2/ Are trying to recoup their money for development awfully quickly?
I don't see most racers shelling out that kind of $$$ for a head like these, perhaps for something like a B1 TS head or similar.
AL...
1/ Not getting a good deal on the castings?
2/ Are trying to recoup their money for development awfully quickly?
I don't see most racers shelling out that kind of $$$ for a head like these, perhaps for something like a B1 TS head or similar.
AL...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 09:55 PM
The best price I've seen Retail is about 3400 a pair BARE. Probably another $1400 in valvetrain and offset rockers. John and I got ours for a lot less than that, enough to where I think it was a pretty decent deal, especially now that I have verification of their flow on "Our" bench!
Sure, they are expensive, But so are Yates heads for the Ford guys. But it's nice to have a set of Big Block Wedge heads that are about as good as just about anything out there.
I keep thinking..285cfm @.400, 370cfm @.650....(In Eric Cartman's voice)....SWEEEEEEEEEET!!
Sure, they are expensive, But so are Yates heads for the Ford guys. But it's nice to have a set of Big Block Wedge heads that are about as good as just about anything out there.
I keep thinking..285cfm @.400, 370cfm @.650....(In Eric Cartman's voice)....SWEEEEEEEEEET!!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 10:18 PM
MP list is $2500 per head , bare .
the only place to buy them is MP , chapman just does the work they can't sell them .
valves thru MP were list $7.50 , of course they not available anymore , went obsolete before the heads became available...
the only place to buy them is MP , chapman just does the work they can't sell them .
valves thru MP were list $7.50 , of course they not available anymore , went obsolete before the heads became available
...
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/28/04 10:29 PM
So Mopar is making these things expensive, what a surprise!! You are right about the Yates stuff Bobby, and the W series small block stuff isn't all that cheap either. It would still be good to see a few more of these heads make it onto engines, they look like a good thing. I think when there is more CNC ported stuff on the market , the prices will come down. I recall seeing Indy advertising CNC porting from $1000 which I consider to be reasonable.
AL...
AL...
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 12:34 AM
IF...and i know its a really big "if"....but, if these things could be bought as a complete package....like the 440-1 kit, with quality parts in them, assembled by a reputable shop...for around $5000...they would probably sell okay.
people like being able to buy a "package" that has all the components in it, and all the normal BS that can go into trying to match parts from different brands of stuff together, already worked out.
while the ICH stuff is a little on the "rude and crude" side....if you buy one of their head packages....you can usually bolt it all together with a minimum of hassles.
not everyone who is putting a motor together has easy access to a machine shop...so the less reworking the parts need...the happier the customer is....and then word gets around.
while these are really nice heads....the fact that MP kinda leaves you hanging after youve bought them will probably hurt sales...well...that and the price.
people like being able to buy a "package" that has all the components in it, and all the normal BS that can go into trying to match parts from different brands of stuff together, already worked out.
while the ICH stuff is a little on the "rude and crude" side....if you buy one of their head packages....you can usually bolt it all together with a minimum of hassles.
not everyone who is putting a motor together has easy access to a machine shop...so the less reworking the parts need...the happier the customer is....and then word gets around.
while these are really nice heads....the fact that MP kinda leaves you hanging after youve bought them will probably hurt sales...well...that and the price.
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 12:59 AM
Dwayne makes a good point about the packages, I , personally would probably look at a complete top end package if I was going to build another engine, just for the less fuss factor, and it seems to be more cost effective. I would probably look at CNC porting too if I was too do it all over again.
AL...
AL...
Posted By: M_D
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 01:52 AM
Koffels offer B1's CNC ported (by another business), they are spendy though. The Chapman head pictures make the CNC porting look real good, I would be surprised if the Indy CNC port jobs are as nice, but I can't say for sure.
Last I knew, the basic B1 package was about $3300 during the winter sale. The smaller (than B1 or 440-1) 285cc port Chapmans should be real good at making power with smaller engines or at lower rpm, so I can see why they might be the best choice for some buildups. I suppose there might be some engines that could effectively use either the B1 or Chapman, but in my opinion they are 2 different animals that fill unique areas.
Last I knew, the basic B1 package was about $3300 during the winter sale. The smaller (than B1 or 440-1) 285cc port Chapmans should be real good at making power with smaller engines or at lower rpm, so I can see why they might be the best choice for some buildups. I suppose there might be some engines that could effectively use either the B1 or Chapman, but in my opinion they are 2 different animals that fill unique areas.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 02:06 AM
I'm confused as to why all the bickering over the pricing........ I just looked up the 3 Chapman Stage 6 part #'s on dealerconnect.com to get the straight story.
P4876382 This is a 235 CC runner version, bare. Dealer cost is $1650 each. List price is $2475 each. Zero heads available...
P4876383 This is a 260 CC runner version, bare. Dealer cost is $2000 each. List Price is $2667 18 heads available
P4876386 This is a 285 CC runner version, bare. Dealer cost $2000 each. List price $2667 17 heads available
Now I looked up P4876819, Bare "regular" Stage 6 with chamber machining: $885 Dealer cost, $1325 list price.
Now, I don't give two S**t's about list price.... All I care about is dealer cost, and what I can realistically get the heads for. Now, alot of MP dealers around country like to sell parts at Dealer cost + 10%. If you are "tight" with a dealer parts man, you might get lucky and get 5%, and if you are friends of the owner of the dealership... no markup....
So I feel I should be able to call up virtually any big MP parts dealer tomorrow and pay no more then $2200 a pop for the big runner Chapman 6's.. and If I'm lucky with connections I can pay even less. So I don't want to hear any $6000+ figures for bare Chapman heads anymore. $4400 tops. If you are paying more than Dealer +10% on ANY MP part, SHOP AROUND.
Now I'm not trying to defend MP here, because I'm actually not pleased with them in the least at the moment but, I think perhaps some people need to look at this more logically. MP has been selling their BARE aluminum V8 heads in the $600-$900 range basically for the past I don't know, what 10 years? Whether it be BB or SB. I showed the current stage 6 bare price above.. So you can figure out ABOUT how much extra you are paying for the CNC work... PLUS take into account these are out of a small limited production casting run, that had to be special made... So lets say $850 a pop for the bare 6's dealer cost...So $1150 of that is for the CNC work? And you all find this to be an outrage? How many of you have actually called Chapman Racing Heads in the past and inquired about the pricing of some of their various CNC programs???????? I know I have.... Their stuff is not, and has never been what I'd call "cheap" However.... it is some of the best CNC development out there. What you are paying for is their R&D and tooling costs... Just like when I send them a bare set of W7's to be CNC'd.. I'm not paying $3K+ for just the effort in whittling away my heads, I'm paying for all the R&D that went into the particular program they are using. They have THREE programs for the Stage 6 MP heads... Imagine how many man hours went into developing those 3 programs? I recall MD marvelling one time about how many lines of code that must go into a full CNC porting program for a cylinder head.... I think perhaps alot of you are too "spoiled" by seeing some of the less $ CNC programs available out there today, that may or may not be near as good in port design area as the Chapman stuff on the mopar heads, and see the big volume sellers on the Brand X market that help keep those CNC prices lower. I guess what I'm getting at is that because Chapman is a newcomer to the Big Block Mopar head market, many on this board are in "sticker shock" over them.... Well I've seen a PILE of CNC Chapman W7/8/9 stuff over the past 3-4 years and know what it cost to have done when it was new.... Their programs are not cheap... and $1150 per head is right on par with what they get for their SB CNC head programs... in fact slightly LESS. I have price quotes for CNC'ing a set of new W7's and a set of 9's.... Their stage 6 stuff is not out of line. My odl 7's wer actually just over $6000 a pair for the CNC work with 3 lb. lightening program. I don't think MP is making hardly anything off of these heads like many want to believe.... Many like I said are just in "Chapman sticker shock" not knowing what Chapman's programs have cost all along.... IMO Chapman Racing heads has the best overall CNC development/ R&D program in the country, and you want to play you have to pay... If you want to pay less... go somewhere else for CNC work on particular heads, look into hand porting etc.
So I guess I'm just a little tired of all the price bashing that has gone on with these heads, and wanted to make people more aware, that it is not so much MP setting the price, it's more like they are setting it based on what they are having to pay Chapman Racing Heads for the R&D etc..
Are they worth the $ VS B1's Indy's etc.???? I could care less, they are all big block heads and as everyone knows, I have no interest in them. I'm just making a point that the cost is not as outrageous as many would like to believe. And Like I said earlier, I can't BELIEVE I just defended MP.... I must be out of my mind tonight.
P4876382 This is a 235 CC runner version, bare. Dealer cost is $1650 each. List price is $2475 each. Zero heads available...
P4876383 This is a 260 CC runner version, bare. Dealer cost is $2000 each. List Price is $2667 18 heads available
P4876386 This is a 285 CC runner version, bare. Dealer cost $2000 each. List price $2667 17 heads available
Now I looked up P4876819, Bare "regular" Stage 6 with chamber machining: $885 Dealer cost, $1325 list price.
Now, I don't give two S**t's about list price.... All I care about is dealer cost, and what I can realistically get the heads for. Now, alot of MP dealers around country like to sell parts at Dealer cost + 10%. If you are "tight" with a dealer parts man, you might get lucky and get 5%, and if you are friends of the owner of the dealership... no markup....
So I feel I should be able to call up virtually any big MP parts dealer tomorrow and pay no more then $2200 a pop for the big runner Chapman 6's.. and If I'm lucky with connections I can pay even less. So I don't want to hear any $6000+ figures for bare Chapman heads anymore. $4400 tops. If you are paying more than Dealer +10% on ANY MP part, SHOP AROUND.
Now I'm not trying to defend MP here, because I'm actually not pleased with them in the least at the moment but, I think perhaps some people need to look at this more logically. MP has been selling their BARE aluminum V8 heads in the $600-$900 range basically for the past I don't know, what 10 years? Whether it be BB or SB. I showed the current stage 6 bare price above.. So you can figure out ABOUT how much extra you are paying for the CNC work... PLUS take into account these are out of a small limited production casting run, that had to be special made... So lets say $850 a pop for the bare 6's dealer cost...So $1150 of that is for the CNC work? And you all find this to be an outrage? How many of you have actually called Chapman Racing Heads in the past and inquired about the pricing of some of their various CNC programs???????? I know I have.... Their stuff is not, and has never been what I'd call "cheap" However.... it is some of the best CNC development out there. What you are paying for is their R&D and tooling costs... Just like when I send them a bare set of W7's to be CNC'd.. I'm not paying $3K+ for just the effort in whittling away my heads, I'm paying for all the R&D that went into the particular program they are using. They have THREE programs for the Stage 6 MP heads... Imagine how many man hours went into developing those 3 programs? I recall MD marvelling one time about how many lines of code that must go into a full CNC porting program for a cylinder head.... I think perhaps alot of you are too "spoiled" by seeing some of the less $ CNC programs available out there today, that may or may not be near as good in port design area as the Chapman stuff on the mopar heads, and see the big volume sellers on the Brand X market that help keep those CNC prices lower. I guess what I'm getting at is that because Chapman is a newcomer to the Big Block Mopar head market, many on this board are in "sticker shock" over them.... Well I've seen a PILE of CNC Chapman W7/8/9 stuff over the past 3-4 years and know what it cost to have done when it was new.... Their programs are not cheap... and $1150 per head is right on par with what they get for their SB CNC head programs... in fact slightly LESS. I have price quotes for CNC'ing a set of new W7's and a set of 9's.... Their stage 6 stuff is not out of line. My odl 7's wer actually just over $6000 a pair for the CNC work with 3 lb. lightening program. I don't think MP is making hardly anything off of these heads like many want to believe.... Many like I said are just in "Chapman sticker shock" not knowing what Chapman's programs have cost all along.... IMO Chapman Racing heads has the best overall CNC development/ R&D program in the country, and you want to play you have to pay... If you want to pay less... go somewhere else for CNC work on particular heads, look into hand porting etc.
So I guess I'm just a little tired of all the price bashing that has gone on with these heads, and wanted to make people more aware, that it is not so much MP setting the price, it's more like they are setting it based on what they are having to pay Chapman Racing Heads for the R&D etc..
Are they worth the $ VS B1's Indy's etc.???? I could care less, they are all big block heads and as everyone knows, I have no interest in them. I'm just making a point that the cost is not as outrageous as many would like to believe. And Like I said earlier, I can't BELIEVE I just defended MP.... I must be out of my mind tonight.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 02:13 AM
While packages have good selling features, nearly all of the best heads I've ever done started out as bare castings. Head Packages almost always compromise some component (ex: locks, retainers, springs, rockers, etc) for the sake of shaving some cost. By the time you upgrade it's a toss-up to where you might have been better to just build them yourself.
Intake port cross section has a big bearing on where the torque peak is likely to occur for a given displacement, peak flow cfm can give you a pretty good idea of how many rpm the flow curve can carry before fall-off and how much peak power you can make. The trend in most forms of naturally aspirated racing (from what I am exposed to) seems to be going to smaller, faster flowing and more highly efficient ports; I guess that's why I was so interesting in trying to get a set of these. I've always been most fascinated in the Technology of engine building, I guess I was just fortunate to find a pair of these at a price that was worth taking the chance for.
Intake port cross section has a big bearing on where the torque peak is likely to occur for a given displacement, peak flow cfm can give you a pretty good idea of how many rpm the flow curve can carry before fall-off and how much peak power you can make. The trend in most forms of naturally aspirated racing (from what I am exposed to) seems to be going to smaller, faster flowing and more highly efficient ports; I guess that's why I was so interesting in trying to get a set of these. I've always been most fascinated in the Technology of engine building, I guess I was just fortunate to find a pair of these at a price that was worth taking the chance for.
Posted By: Sport440
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 03:16 AM
Streetwise; Can we see a pic of the intake port, I would like to compare it to my MW size ported out EDDIE. mike 
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 03:46 AM
Here's one
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 03:48 AM
Chamber view
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 03:49 AM
another
Posted By: Glen440
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 04:13 AM
I priced these heads out here in Can. $2600 a head in cnd funds so around $3900usd. We get cost+5% at my work.
How would these heads work on a small cube engine? say 400cu.
I can see these heads being good for class racing cause B1 are banned in the slower classes here.
How would these heads work on a small cube engine? say 400cu.
I can see these heads being good for class racing cause B1 are banned in the slower classes here.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 04:19 AM
Good question Glen, at 400 cubes it might rev higher than the valvetrain would be able to keep up with!
A 6500 rpm hp peak at ~500 inches would be ~8400 on a 400, might be an interessting combo in a light tire limited car.
Wow only 2 days and over 1000 hits on this thread!!
A 6500 rpm hp peak at ~500 inches would be ~8400
on a 400, might be an interessting combo in a light tire limited car.Wow only 2 days and over 1000 hits on this thread!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 04:47 AM
Would that be 8400?I was thinking 7800 rpm.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 04:52 AM
I was thinking that a 400 is 20% smaller than a 500 so it would have to rev 20% higher.If the 500 peaks at 6500 then the 400 would peak at 7800 wouldn't it?Where did I go wrong? 
Oh well it's late and nothing makes sense this late anyways.
Oh well it's late and nothing makes sense this late anyways.
Posted By: M_D
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 06:13 AM
I come up with 8,125 rpm (that's all theoretical IMO), but it's late here too so who knows what the right answer will be in the morning.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 12:54 PM
Yeah, 8125..theoretically using 500", I mistakenly used my own 517" @ 6500 in the calculation, came out to 8401 @ 400...sorry
Actually, I think it might be higher that 8125 as a very good port on a short stroke motor might actually acheive a higher VE at the same "mathematical" airflow, in that respect even though the torque would drop, it would do so at a proportionally slower rate and if it could still gain rpm the power peak would likely be higher. That's part of why short strokes are favored in high RPM applications.
Actually, I think it might be higher that 8125 as a very good port on a short stroke motor might actually acheive a higher VE at the same "mathematical" airflow, in that respect even though the torque would drop, it would do so at a proportionally slower rate and if it could still gain rpm the power peak would likely be higher. That's part of why short strokes are favored in high RPM applications.
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 01:56 PM
i dont know Ryan.....i still think that $4400 for a set of bare castings that arent vastly superior to some of the other stuff out there that costs a lot less $$$, is a big chunk of change.
where is the special niche that these heads are going to fill that will justify the cost?
these heads arent going to make the "big" power numbers on a large cube motor....not like a set of B1's or 572-13's will....they just arent big enough.
so, why tie up $6500 in some heads that arent big enough to support the big cubes, and build a 500"+/- motor, when for the same kind of total cash outlay you could build a 540 or 572 with different heads, and make more power.
i think in a 450-500ci package they are going to be great heads....with more difference than some of the other offerings showing up on the lower end if that CI scale.
at 500", i think the std B1's are going to make more power....at a much lower cost.
and, they dont need a $2200 CNC program porting job done to them to get 380+cfm from them(i have a set here that had a quick home port job done to them that flow over 380cfm).
so, regardless of how much R&D went into them, and the fact that they flow very good numbers for their runner size....the fact is that on a dollar per HP scale, they dont really stack up all that well.
B1 Ken has an 875hp motor using std B1's that he has about $9000 into, for the whole motor.
if you start out with the Chapman VI's and end up having $6500 in the top end....that only leaves $2500 to build the rest of the motor.
IMO, MP missed the mark on these heads by making them so expensive.
the object is to make parts that people will buy. if you price things too high, they dont sell.
there just isnt any justifiable reason why a std stage VI head should cost any more than a B1 head or an Indy head....it certainly isnt made any better.
where is the special niche that these heads are going to fill that will justify the cost?
these heads arent going to make the "big" power numbers on a large cube motor....not like a set of B1's or 572-13's will....they just arent big enough.
so, why tie up $6500 in some heads that arent big enough to support the big cubes, and build a 500"+/- motor, when for the same kind of total cash outlay you could build a 540 or 572 with different heads, and make more power.
i think in a 450-500ci package they are going to be great heads....with more difference than some of the other offerings showing up on the lower end if that CI scale.
at 500", i think the std B1's are going to make more power....at a much lower cost.
and, they dont need a $2200 CNC program porting job done to them to get 380+cfm from them(i have a set here that had a quick home port job done to them that flow over 380cfm).
so, regardless of how much R&D went into them, and the fact that they flow very good numbers for their runner size....the fact is that on a dollar per HP scale, they dont really stack up all that well.
B1 Ken has an 875hp motor using std B1's that he has about $9000 into, for the whole motor.
if you start out with the Chapman VI's and end up having $6500 in the top end....that only leaves $2500 to build the rest of the motor.
IMO, MP missed the mark on these heads by making them so expensive.
the object is to make parts that people will buy. if you price things too high, they dont sell.
there just isnt any justifiable reason why a std stage VI head should cost any more than a B1 head or an Indy head....it certainly isnt made any better.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 02:56 PM
Dwayne,
Good points all around, and I agree that their domain is in the 500" range, much above that and a bigger motor is typically not gonna be upset by the much larger (B1 size) runners.
I'm impressed with thier flow/runner ratio, put another way a ~365cc B1 or INDY port would need to flow 360 @ .400 and ~470 at .650 to equal their efficiency.
They're perfect for what I'm planning to do (especially since I got them for a little more than 1/2 price) and not everybody wants a big hp high RPM motor with a relatively narrow powerband. I doubt a B1(even if it were legal) would have won the Engine masters 2500-6500 highest average TQ/HP contest, at least not without a lot of epoxy. When you start to realize that within 5 or so years I think DFI is going to become the new dominant method of fuel delivery, port efficiency and smaller cross section (at least partly because the mass/volume of the fuel doesn't need to occupy any runner space in the manifold), I think the trend will continue to be toward "faster" flowing runners.
Good points all around, and I agree that their domain is in the 500" range, much above that and a bigger motor is typically not gonna be upset by the much larger (B1 size) runners.
I'm impressed with thier flow/runner ratio, put another way a ~365cc B1 or INDY port would need to flow 360 @ .400 and ~470 at .650 to equal their efficiency.
They're perfect for what I'm planning to do (especially since I got them for a little more than 1/2 price) and not everybody wants a big hp high RPM motor with a relatively narrow powerband. I doubt a B1(even if it were legal) would have won the Engine masters 2500-6500 highest average TQ/HP contest, at least not without a lot of epoxy. When you start to realize that within 5 or so years I think DFI is going to become the new dominant method of fuel delivery, port efficiency and smaller cross section (at least partly because the mass/volume of the fuel doesn't need to occupy any runner space in the manifold), I think the trend will continue to be toward "faster" flowing runners.
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 03:32 PM
Quote:
i dont know Ryan.....i still think that $4400 for a set of bare castings that arent vastly superior to some of the other stuff out there that costs a lot less $$$, is a big chunk of change.
where is the special niche that these heads are going to fill that will justify the cost?
these heads arent going to make the "big" power numbers on a large cube motor....not like a set of B1's or 572-13's will....they just arent big enough.
so, why tie up $6500 in some heads that arent big enough to support the big cubes, and build a 500"+/- motor, when for the same kind of total cash outlay you could build a 540 or 572 with different heads, and make more power.
i think in a 450-500ci package they are going to be great heads....with more difference than some of the other offerings showing up on the lower end if that CI scale.
at 500", i think the std B1's are going to make more power....at a much lower cost.
and, they dont need a $2200 CNC program porting job done to them to get 380+cfm from them(i have a set here that had a quick home port job done to them that flow over 380cfm).
so, regardless of how much R&D went into them, and the fact that they flow very good numbers for their runner size....the fact is that on a dollar per HP scale, they dont really stack up all that well.
B1 Ken has an 875hp motor using std B1's that he has about $9000 into, for the whole motor.
if you start out with the Chapman VI's and end up having $6500 in the top end....that only leaves $2500 to build the rest of the motor.
IMO, MP missed the mark on these heads by making them so expensive.
the object is to make parts that people will buy. if you price things too high, they dont sell.
there just isnt any justifiable reason why a std stage VI head should cost any more than a B1 head or an Indy head....it certainly isnt made any better.
LOL Again, I'm not arguing that they are a good value per $ (IMO they are'nt), all I wanted to point out was that it is more or less Chapman setting the price on them not MP. And if it was MP's bright idea to come out with this head, full knowing what it would cost in the end, then you are right, they missed the boat once AGAIN at what customers are really going to go buy and want. Then again they miss the boat every day though, so should'nt be surprising.
But my guess is with a grand total of 35 CNC heads currently on the shelf, they will in time sell them all. They've had NUMEROUS NUMEROUS Chapman CNC W7/8 heads with special part #'s over the years with outrageous prices, and stuff always ends up selling out eventually. The set of 8's I'm trying to snag right now were a low production Chapman CNC head that has a MP CNC part #, list price was $3250 on them each.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 04:21 PM
Well I can ad a little to the Chapman debate. I have a set of Chapman CNC'ed heads here in the garage. We ran the same set of heads on the Camaro we used to heads up race. They cost $1300 a piece bare. The flow numbers are similar to what you see from the Stage VI's, albeit it with much larger runners. Of course they are sold through Edelbrock not Chevrolet. Perhaps at some point Edelbrock may see fit to do the same with the BB Mopar head, would be interesting to see the results and cost for such an animal. I also dont understand all the up roar about the MP price. The real surprise would be that they would come out with a part at a good price. I mean pretty much everything is overpriced, so it is nothing new..I do also agree with Ryan that they will sell all they can make too..Some guys are just die hards I guess.
Posted By: moper
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 04:40 PM
well, they are out of my range, but it does seem like MP missed the mark here. The W series heads were and are still used in professional racing, in many classes..WoO, Nextel, Busch, drag racing, you name it. The big block is out of these classes..Has been for years. So why target a market share that's so much smaller? They have priced them out of the range of weekend street/racers. The program is impressive, but if the machine can cut them, they can be hand done, and $1400 will get a lot done. Edelbrock doesnt offer the cnc stuff becuase they are targetting the biggest crowd. The guys who say for a few hundred more, I'll use the edddys. MP expects the same group to say I'll spend the extra thousands? Dont think so. They look great for smaller (under 470) bracket big blocks, that can rev. Those racers will see the quality, and the potential, and dont mind spending the $. But like Fast says, If I were building a motor like that, I'd put more cubes into it, and use the cheaper heads that can feed them. just another opinion...As I said, they are way beyond me...But dollars/ET, they dont make sense to me either.
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 06:03 PM
one other thought about the cost of the Chapman CNC'ing process.....
while i agree that they are a leader in this area, $2000+ for the port work is just too much money.
the ICH 572-13 top end package one of my friends bought got their CNC port job....which from an appearance standpoint doesnt look much different than the Chapman VI's do....and that was only an $800 option.
i think Chapman is trying to recoupe their investment with too few a number of pieces sold.
i cant believe the Chapman machinery takes 2 1/2 times as long to port the heads as the ICH equipment does.
i spoke with one of the bigger engine shops that does Busch and Nextel stuff, and they do their own CNC porting....and they said it takes about 4hrs for the machine to port an 18deg Busch head.
while i agree that they are a leader in this area, $2000+ for the port work is just too much money.
the ICH 572-13 top end package one of my friends bought got their CNC port job....which from an appearance standpoint doesnt look much different than the Chapman VI's do....and that was only an $800 option.
i think Chapman is trying to recoupe their investment with too few a number of pieces sold.
i cant believe the Chapman machinery takes 2 1/2 times as long to port the heads as the ICH equipment does.
i spoke with one of the bigger engine shops that does Busch and Nextel stuff, and they do their own CNC porting....and they said it takes about 4hrs for the machine to port an 18deg Busch head.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 06:28 PM
MD is right about the 8125 rpm. I did the math on the way to work this morning.500 being 25% bigger than 400 and not 20.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 09:04 PM
i'll repeat it again , chapman is not a source for the head , i am going to go out on a limb here and guess that MP is marking up what chapman is charging for the CNC work .
a perfect example is the lift pump on the 98.5 - 2002 cummins , i can buy it from cummins for about 140 bucks , mopar , over 400 .
and like streetwize , if i didn't get a smoking deal on them i'd be waiting on the MP fire sale of these heads .
a perfect example is the lift pump on the 98.5 - 2002 cummins , i can buy it from cummins for about 140 bucks , mopar , over 400 .
and like streetwize , if i didn't get a smoking deal on them i'd be waiting on the MP fire sale of these heads .
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 10:44 PM
Quote:
i'll repeat it again , chapman is not a source for the head , i am going to go out on a limb here and guess that MP is marking up what chapman is charging for the CNC work .
No, the heads are coming out of the Zeus Foundry, under MP contract, designed in the Chrysler Technology center, using a MP casting core box....The heads are MP DESIGNED castings, I don't know who is doing the initial Machining, it used to be Arrow or Galaxy that was doing stuff like the plug holes, bolt holes etc, but Chapman is installing the guides and seats and doing the CNC work......I'll stand by my statement that MP is not marking up these heads much at all, when all is said and done between modifying the cores, doing a new casting run at Zeus etc etc.... These are such a limited run head, there is no way they will pocket dime one on these heads, they will be a net loss for Diamler IMO when all is said and done.
I can't say for 100% sure what if any markup tehre is on those particular heads but MP made the mistake of inadvertently allowing a Chapman Machining Invoice attached to the side of a box of CNC W9's I had here and based on the MP pricing of those heads, they were not marking them up much at all... It's just one of those deals where, if I knew EXACTLY how much they had in the bare castings, between engineering, R&D, Paying the foundry, and paying for initial maching of head bolt holes etc, I could tell you exact markup, but as of now I'm just GUESSING as to the costs they have in the bare castings, but even if I guess low, the markup ain't much.... They definitely rip people off on the markup of some stuff (like the MP .001" oversize main bearings for SB
) But the Chapman heads are'nt one of those things IMO.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 10:51 PM
ryan , what i am trying to say , incase i missed it in your reply , is that the only place you can buy a chapman cnc'd stage 6 head is FROM MP , chapman is NOT allowed to sell them .
edit , i see that chapamn is part of the crazy pricing ... ok ....
i know they are zues , chrysler changed foundries , part of the reason for the almost 2 year wait by chapman for the cores i'll bet , when i tryed to get them for the EM last may they had been waiting 18 MONTHS at that point for the cores .
by the way MP does also list a part number for that zues casting in a rawish state so someone can do their own CNC work and or hogging by hand ...
edit , i see that chapamn is part of the crazy pricing ... ok ....
i know they are zues , chrysler changed foundries , part of the reason for the almost 2 year wait by chapman for the cores i'll bet , when i tryed to get them for the EM last may they had been waiting 18 MONTHS at that point for the cores .
by the way MP does also list a part number for that zues casting in a rawish state so someone can do their own CNC work and or hogging by hand ...
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/29/04 11:45 PM
Cost is kind of irrelevant to the customer, they only care about the price. Spending so much in R&D that you can't sell the product at a profit is a classic mistake.
We'll just have to see if people are willing to pay double for the Chapmans what the B1's would cost them.
I suppose MP could make the situation better by releasing a low deck Megablock. Then the Chapmans are kind of cool since you can run the RB manifolds and make a ton of power. Putting the high port heads on top of a RB block always seemed a little clunky to me.
We'll just have to see if people are willing to pay double for the Chapmans what the B1's would cost them.
I suppose MP could make the situation better by releasing a low deck Megablock. Then the Chapmans are kind of cool since you can run the RB manifolds and make a ton of power. Putting the high port heads on top of a RB block always seemed a little clunky to me.
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 01:39 AM
Chapman seems to be the premier CNC porting shop at this stage, and are currently charging premier prices . I haven't had the pleasure of witnessing the machining service for myself, but have done alot of 3D Aerospace machining in the past. Now if these heads were one of the first sets of heads to come out of Chapmans shop, I could understand the high cost. As we know , to do these heads, specialized machinery is required, which is generally not found in your everyday engineering jobbing shop, so the cost of the initial purchase of their 5 Axis, or horizontal Machining center with a 4th axis, or whatever they are using would be factored into their intitial cost. Tooling would be another, specialized carbide ball end cutters etc. Their 3D software program, depending on what's being used, the software could cost anywhere from a few thousand to over $10000, I am really only familar with SurfCAM and UniGraphics, Uni Graphics as a package in Australia cost a tad over $20000 Aud. Chapman have been doing CNC head porting for some time now, and were really one of the few companies doing it, so I guess it still understandable their prices are still high. When some more competition in the market comes about, then I would expect to see their prices come down. I have seen a couple different Chapman heads, both being Edelbrock Ford heads, and their work is quite nice. I do agree with Dwayne, there wouldn't be a huge amount of time in them, the CNC ported stuff I have seen usually has a 0.040"-0.060" step over, which isn't that tight really. Most general finishing on 3D stuff I have done has been 0.5mm, and 0.1mm on the small fine stuff . So depending on feed rates, spindle speeds etc, I would guess 4-5 hours to be about right with a roughing and finishing cut. Just to finish, a friend of mine has a set of Chevy heads that Dart CNC ported for him, they are their new 11* big chiefs of something like that, the CNC port job was around $2500US on the pair, but these things flow just under 550cfm @ 0.900" Something like that I would expect to pay that kind of $$$, looks like MP got it wrong again, lol
AL...
AL...
Posted By: RyanJ
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 02:18 AM
Quote:
by the way MP does also list a part number for that zues casting in a rawish state so someone can do their own CNC work and or hogging by hand ...
John what is the part # for the Unported 6's with raised spring pockets? I just want to go look up the price....
BTW I'm guessing almost all of Chapmans new CNC Programs are written on a computer rather than digitizing someone's hand porting, which is what lower end CNC shops do, and what used to be the "industry standard". Today the BIG big $ stuff is all designed on puter, and then just punched into a raw small casting. I guess most of you have never seen a bare W8 head... It's actually designed to be CNC only... Ports are the size of my thumb before the whittling process begins. I'd be curious to see what the Chaps look like before porting. I'll be posting some pics of quite a bit of Chapman CNC stuff and I'll throw in some bare 8 pics in the next few months, as I've come into some stuff (17 sets) and am helping the owner unload it. Almost all of it is Chapman CNC of some variety...(W series junk LOL) The first set of Chapman 9's are arriving tomorrow. Pics and flow results will be imminent.
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 02:15 PM
Quote:
Cost is kind of irrelevant to the customer, they only care about the price. Spending so much in R&D that you can't sell the product at a profit is a classic mistake.
We'll just have to see if people are willing to pay double for the Chapmans what the B1's would cost them.
thats exactly how i feel about it.
i cant believe MP/Chapman has invested more into these heads
than say Ebrock has in any of their heads.....which cost MUCH less.
the best way to recoupe your start up costs are to sell a large number of units.
just as much engineering $$$ are spent in the design and manufacture (probably more actually) of a Ford Focus than a Ferrari......but the costs are kept low by absorbing it into a huge number of units, instead of a handful.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 04:30 PM
I usually start to lose interest whenever a Tech thread morphs into an Enonomic and Marketing debate; 
All I was interested in at first was volunteering my heads to see what these pup's really flowed and sharing it with whoever might be interested. Good or bad, at least we'd know. If they wouldn't fall out of a tree, doom on me, but at least I shared so noone would need to make the same mistake. Apparently there was some interest, check the number of hits!
But since economics is the topic today, my .02 on it is that it looks as though I got 'em for a reasonable price. The real "ideal" saleable price is somewhere between what I paid and whatever they get for them. Retail was ~$1700 each (Summit once had them for $3400/pr), now it's apparently over $2000. That's too bad 'cause they're good heads pricing aside.
I can't really say that I blame Chapman, after all there is nothing "patentable" about their work, it won't take long for people to map out what they did and potentially clone them. After all, what's to stop Edelbrock from making knock-offs of them now? Edelbrock is a Public company and they have their own foundries and a whole supply chain in place, economy of scale as Fast correctly points out. So Chapman's only real shot on a limited production is to make back what they can, MP obviously doesn't have the vision to realize if they really made more than a half-a$$ed attempt at getting into the higher volume/lower margin aftermarket (i.e., go head to head with Edelbrock for the Mopar Market) they could do very well. By the same measure, Koffel could step-up and bring the off-the-shelf price to whatever the year-end price is, obviously they're not selling them at a loss for the lower price.
They are expensive heads, but to look at it another way we have a streetable head on par
in flow and price with a Yates Head and they don't exactly give those away either. I think I'd rather pay a bit higher price for something that works than a lower price for something that apparently doesn't live up to the hype without a lot of supplementary help(EX: Bulldogs).
The fact is, Most Racers aren't retail marketing guys, and in many ways I'm glad of that....think about it.
All I was interested in at first was volunteering my heads to see what these pup's really flowed and sharing it with whoever might be interested. Good or bad, at least we'd know. If they wouldn't fall out of a tree, doom on me, but at least I shared so noone would need to make the same mistake. Apparently there was some interest, check the number of hits!
But since economics is the topic today, my .02 on it is that it looks as though I got 'em for a reasonable price. The real "ideal" saleable price is somewhere between what I paid and whatever they get for them. Retail was ~$1700 each (Summit once had them for $3400/pr), now it's apparently over $2000. That's too bad 'cause they're good heads pricing aside.
I can't really say that I blame Chapman, after all there is nothing "patentable" about their work, it won't take long for people to map out what they did and potentially clone them. After all, what's to stop Edelbrock from making knock-offs of them now? Edelbrock is a Public company and they have their own foundries and a whole supply chain in place, economy of scale as Fast correctly points out. So Chapman's only real shot on a limited production is to make back what they can, MP obviously doesn't have the vision to realize if they really made more than a half-a$$ed attempt at getting into the higher volume/lower margin aftermarket (i.e., go head to head with Edelbrock for the Mopar Market) they could do very well. By the same measure, Koffel could step-up and bring the off-the-shelf price to whatever the year-end price is, obviously they're not selling them at a loss for the lower price.
They are expensive heads, but to look at it another way we have a streetable head on par
in flow and price with a Yates Head and they don't exactly give those away either. I think I'd rather pay a bit higher price for something that works than a lower price for something that apparently doesn't live up to the hype without a lot of supplementary help(EX: Bulldogs).
The fact is, Most Racers aren't retail marketing guys, and in many ways I'm glad of that....think about it.
Posted By: Bill_T
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 05:49 PM
Are the heads ready to assemble and bolt on then? Has this been determined? Or is it still possible that some things are "off."
The partially machined heads are only $625 from at least one vendor. The completed heads are $2100.
The partially machined heads are only $625 from at least one vendor. The completed heads are $2100.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 07:02 PM
Quote:
Are the heads ready to assemble and bolt on then? Has this been determined? Or is it still possible that some things are "off."
The partially machined heads are only $625 from at least one vendor. The completed heads are $2100.
bil , the chapmans are sold BARE
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 07:07 PM
Quote:
John what is the part # for the Unported 6's with raised spring pockets? I just want to go look up the price....
P5007834 is what is in the online resto cat on buymopar.com
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 07:28 PM
John,
Did you wind up trading for the 260's ??
Did you wind up trading for the 260's ??
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/30/04 09:22 PM
Quote:
John,
Did you wind up trading for the 260's ??
one so far
... i owe the person/company i traded a few bucks for some parts i purchased and i think he's holding it hostage till i pay up ...
i'll be sending my 452's back up to dwayne next week sometimme so i'll send up the head i have ( my dad goes to Burlington,Vt. 3 times a week , free shipping
) , of course i don't have any valves ... maybe i can get one of each from MP , i think i'm going to get a custom set and use lashcaps ...
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/31/04 12:30 AM
here are the exhaust flow numbers with a 2" tube attached:
lift---flow
.100--58.2
.200-124.8
.300-189.8
.400-229.8
.450-243.4
.500-254.6
.550-264.2
.600-272.2
.650-278.6
.700-283.4
.750-288.2
.800-291.4
while the topic did stray a little into a price thing, that shouldnt take away from the fact that these are pretty nice heads.
but as nice as they are, and as happy as Wize is that he bought them....im going to go out on a limb here and say i dont think he would own this set of heads if he had to pay $4200/pr for the bare castings.
for that same $4200....i bought some 440-1's set up for a Jesel rocker system, the Jesel rockers, the spray bar valve covers, all the valves/springs/retainers/locks/seat cups/seals....and still had enough change to go out and have a few nice steak dinners.
granted....my 440-1's dont flow as well on the intake side as these do either....so, i guess it all boils down to how much youre willing to pay for the small runner/big flow thing.
i'll be looking forward to hearing how they end up fitting on the motor, how the valvetrain goes together...and how the motor combo works out when Wize gets it all done.
lift---flow
.100--58.2
.200-124.8
.300-189.8
.400-229.8
.450-243.4
.500-254.6
.550-264.2
.600-272.2
.650-278.6
.700-283.4
.750-288.2
.800-291.4
while the topic did stray a little into a price thing, that shouldnt take away from the fact that these are pretty nice heads.
but as nice as they are, and as happy as Wize is that he bought them....im going to go out on a limb here and say i dont think he would own this set of heads if he had to pay $4200/pr for the bare castings.
for that same $4200....i bought some 440-1's set up for a Jesel rocker system, the Jesel rockers, the spray bar valve covers, all the valves/springs/retainers/locks/seat cups/seals....and still had enough change to go out and have a few nice steak dinners.
granted....my 440-1's dont flow as well on the intake side as these do either....so, i guess it all boils down to how much youre willing to pay for the small runner/big flow thing.
i'll be looking forward to hearing how they end up fitting on the motor, how the valvetrain goes together...and how the motor combo works out when Wize gets it all done.
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/31/04 01:32 AM
i found my notes on when i freshened up the EM470 heads for 440Jim.
this is what i would consider a couple of the better overall ports on that set of heads(the highest flowing intake port didnt have the best area under the curve, but did flow 365.7 @ .700 lift).
keep in mind this is also a 30cc+/- smaller port than the Chapman 285's, and we didnt have the luxury of the longer valve, added roof height, or added short turn height to play with.
all in all.....i think if we had some of these same bare castings that Chapman had, and MD did another port design similar to the ones on the EM470 heads....it might even flow more than the Chapman 285's...with the same, or smaller, runner volume.
lift--Chap/ EM-A/ EM-B
.100--72.5/ 71.0/ 73.0
.200-153.7/148.2/149.0
.300-224.3/210.9/216.8
.400-285.2/265.9/273.7
.500-329.6/312.2/317.8
.600-361.9/348.5/348.5
.650-368.1/358.1/352.3
.700-364.0/358.1/352.3
i dont think i had my 4.375 bore adapter when i got these last numbers, so on the bigger bore, the mid-lift numbers on the EM heads might be even better.
it'll be interesting to see how the Chapman 260's compare to the EM470 heads, since the runner volumes are closer to each other.
this is what i would consider a couple of the better overall ports on that set of heads(the highest flowing intake port didnt have the best area under the curve, but did flow 365.7 @ .700 lift).
keep in mind this is also a 30cc+/- smaller port than the Chapman 285's, and we didnt have the luxury of the longer valve, added roof height, or added short turn height to play with.
all in all.....i think if we had some of these same bare castings that Chapman had, and MD did another port design similar to the ones on the EM470 heads....it might even flow more than the Chapman 285's...with the same, or smaller, runner volume.
lift--Chap/ EM-A/ EM-B
.100--72.5/ 71.0/ 73.0
.200-153.7/148.2/149.0
.300-224.3/210.9/216.8
.400-285.2/265.9/273.7
.500-329.6/312.2/317.8
.600-361.9/348.5/348.5
.650-368.1/358.1/352.3
.700-364.0/358.1/352.3
i dont think i had my 4.375 bore adapter when i got these last numbers, so on the bigger bore, the mid-lift numbers on the EM heads might be even better.
it'll be interesting to see how the Chapman 260's compare to the EM470 heads, since the runner volumes are closer to each other.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/31/04 01:45 AM
Dwayne,
You are absolutely right, as nice as they are I wouldn't have shelled out $4200 for them, with what I bought them for you and I could go have a decent steak dinner once a week for at least 3 months with what was left over. That's not to say they might not be worth it to some of the racers out there.
I didn't exactly buy them on a whim, but it was not long after Gary passed away and I had it set in my mind I wanted to do some type of Tribute to him, after all he had called me and told me he wanted to do a 500" short rod low deck like the one I was doing. Guess that's at least part of why I jumped at the chance to get them.
Looks like the ports liked the tube, huh?
You are absolutely right, as nice as they are I wouldn't have shelled out $4200 for them, with what I bought them for you and I could go have a decent steak dinner once a week for at least 3 months with what was left over. That's not to say they might not be worth it to some of the racers out there.
I didn't exactly buy them on a whim, but it was not long after Gary passed away and I had it set in my mind I wanted to do some type of Tribute to him, after all he had called me and told me he wanted to do a 500" short rod low deck like the one I was doing. Guess that's at least part of why I jumped at the chance to get them.
Looks like the ports liked the tube, huh?
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/31/04 01:58 AM
Quote:
Looks like the ports liked the tube, huh?
yup....thats a pretty big jump from the tube.
its funny....some heads just go nuts when you put it on...and some hardly gain anything.
with a 2 1/8" tube it would probably be a little better still.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/31/04 05:15 AM
dwayne , do you have a 2.20 / 11/32 valve that will work for a flow test ? if so i'll send up the head on monday , i won't have the other heads done till the end of the week at the earliest .
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 07/31/04 04:08 PM
So Dwayne, anything interesting about the measurements? I'm curious to know how the depth of the bowl and the long and short side radiuses measured up.
Putting these on a low deck, what would be the best Intake to run? I know an indy or possibly a B1 would be an obvious choice but I wonder how a modern sheetmetal Max Wedge style cross ram or low rise TR would do with DFI At these types of flow rates from some base calculations I'm now leaning toward some type of multiple carb set up. Or how about the Indy 440-25?
http://indyheads.com/catalog/page8-9.pdf
I use AutoCad and I work at a machine shop with a water jet, I might be able to talk the boss into letting me cut out a 'Paper Doll' manifold Prototype, might need some expert input to calc total runner volumes and lengths, anybody have the latest version of Engine Analyzer Pro I could borrow for a week?
Putting these on a low deck, what would be the best Intake to run? I know an indy or possibly a B1 would be an obvious choice but I wonder how a modern sheetmetal Max Wedge style cross ram or low rise TR would do with DFI
At these types of flow rates from some base calculations I'm now leaning toward some type of multiple carb set up. Or how about the Indy 440-25?
http://indyheads.com/catalog/page8-9.pdf
I use AutoCad and I work at a machine shop with a water jet, I might be able to talk the boss into letting me cut out a 'Paper Doll' manifold Prototype, might need some expert input to calc total runner volumes and lengths, anybody have the latest version of Engine Analyzer Pro I could borrow for a week?
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/01/04 01:51 AM
Has anybody run any of the multiple carb INDY stuff? The thought is starting to intrigue me more and more.
Posted By: GomangoCuda
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/01/04 08:48 AM
Quote:
I use AutoCad and I work at a machine shop with a water jet, I might be able to talk the boss into letting me cut out a 'Paper Doll' manifold Prototype, might need some expert input to calc total runner volumes and lengths, anybody have the latest version of Engine Analyzer Pro I could borrow for a week?
Take a look at these sites for info on Helmholtz resonators, runner lengths, runner areas, runner taper, plenum volumes,etc .
http://www.newcovenant.com/speedcrafter/calculators/intake.htm
http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.html
http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeApeRacing/tech/inductionsystems.pdf
http://www.mecc.unipd.it/~cos/DINAMOTO/risuonatore/risuonatore.html
http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~shih/eml4421/student%20presentation%20EML%204421/manifold%20tuning.pdf
http://www.autospeed.com.au/cms/article.html?&A=0122&P=6
David Vizard has written books that cover this subject also.
Martin
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/01/04 08:56 AM
Martin, you don't know what the titles of the books that David Vizard had written in regard to this???
AL...
AL...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/01/04 02:26 PM
Go,
Thanks
Thanks
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/01/04 03:26 PM
One more thing about the price issue, Chapman gets paid off the wholesale price to MP, not the retail. I suspect if the initial run of heads sell out and get favorable results (Steve D's EngineMasters effort was bound to help in that regard), MP could re-negotiate the price from here out. From what I heard the old Stage VI Alcoa foundry castings were too porous, the valve pockets were too deep and a big batch of them had to be melted down and re-cast. Eventually castings were moved to Zeus at an additional expense to MP no doubt. My point is, Chapman was contracted (Time and Materials) and they probably had to be paid before the first MP authorized sale was ever made. I have no doubt that the tab wound up way more than DOUBLE what MP had originally estimated/budgeted for the venture.
It looks like their most direct competition would be the INDY CNC'ed -1's which (I'm guessing) retail for about $3000.
It looks like their most direct competition would be the INDY CNC'ed -1's which (I'm guessing) retail for about $3000.
Posted By: GomangoCuda
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/03/04 09:11 AM
Quote:
Martin, you don't know what the titles of the books that David Vizard had written in regard to this???
AL...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1884089143/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-4493836-1780107#reader-link
Chapter 5 covers intake manifold theory.
He also covered this subject in a couple of books about racing European 4 cyllinder engines. Don't know if they are still in print but the book in the link above is still available and probably more useful.
Martin
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/05/04 06:21 PM
So does anybody know if the Victor 440 can be taken out to a Max Wedge port?
Fast, what kind of #'s did you get out of the Victor and were they consistent port-to-port? Do you think it could flow enoughto keep up with these ports or what would you recommend?
I'm not adverse to going to a 2 x 4bbl, I think at this HP point and the good velocity available from these ports it might be worth trying.
Fast, what kind of #'s did you get out of the Victor and were they consistent port-to-port? Do you think it could flow enoughto keep up with these ports or what would you recommend?
I'm not adverse to going to a 2 x 4bbl, I think at this HP point and the good velocity available from these ports it might be worth trying.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/05/04 08:18 PM
Quote:My experience with my 471 and several intakes was the Indy (400-2) 4150 intake was the fastest down the race track. However, driving on the return road and in the pits was notably worse than the others I tried. So "bad" in fact, I would not recommend one for street use. A 508 CID might work a little beter, or a turtle/cone in the plenum might help the part throttle performance.
Putting these on a low deck, what would be the best Intake to run? I know an indy or possibly a B1 would be an obvious choice
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/05/04 08:44 PM
Quote:Quote:My experience with my 471 and several intakes was the Indy (400-2) 4150 intake was the fastest down the race track. However, driving on the return road and in the pits was notably worse than the others I tried. So "bad" in fact, I would not recommend one for street use. A 508 CID might work a little beter, or a turtle/cone in the plenum might help the part throttle performance.
Putting these on a low deck, what would be the best Intake to run? I know an indy or possibly a B1 would be an obvious choice
also note a B! is not an option due to port and bolt configuration and spacing ...
jim i heard the same thing , the indy single plain seemed to work well at WOT , but not really any other throttle position ...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/06/04 12:26 AM
John,
I thought the original B1 would (or could be made to)work.
I'm really leaning toward a 440-25 but I can't find any data on it. With these ports and 2-4's I think there could be big gains worth going after upstairs. Besides, I never really had a multi-carb street car!
I thought the original B1 would (or could be made to)work.
I'm really leaning toward a 440-25 but I can't find any data on it. With these ports and 2-4's I think there could be big gains worth going after upstairs. Besides, I never really had a multi-carb street car!
Posted By: racealittle
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/07/04 03:22 AM
Bobby, I've got a Eddy TM7 that has been nicely modified to accomodate Max Wedge ports. I have it sized for raised port B/RB heads. There is alot of material above the port that can still be removed. I also increased the runner size on a couple ports, but the work came to a standstill when I found a Wieand dual quad and a heavily modified tunnel ram to suit my heads. If you want some pics, let me know. I'm taking it to a swap meet Saturday with some other stuff I don't plan on using. It likely won't sell in unfinished condition.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/07/04 01:23 PM
Phil,
Hey, thanks buddy!
I'm still a good bit away from getting anywhere near assembly, I actually have a project ahead of the 517 that needs to be finished and the starter just went out on the Charger (defective bendix, I guess)
I'm leaning toward multiple carbs on this thing and that INDY rat roaster looks pretty cool, wish I could find more 'real' info about it.
Hey, thanks buddy!
I'm still a good bit away from getting anywhere near assembly, I actually have a project ahead of the 517 that needs to be finished and the starter just went out on the Charger (defective bendix, I guess)
I'm leaning toward multiple carbs on this thing and that INDY rat roaster looks pretty cool, wish I could find more 'real' info about it.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 02:24 PM
Can somebody (Mods?) revise the BB head flow chart in the Archives to add these?
http://www.moparts.com/Tech/Archive/bb/17.html
I figure it might save Fast and me a bunch of E-mails when people want to remember what they went.
thanks
http://www.moparts.com/Tech/Archive/bb/17.html
I figure it might save Fast and me a bunch of E-mails when people want to remember what they went.
thanks
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 02:37 PM
i'll see what needs to be done , what i need is a post with the numbers you want added so i can give them to tom ...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 03:04 PM
Like This?
Lift" I/E
.100 72.5/58.2
.200 153.7/118.6
.300 224.3/178.2
.400 285.2/218.2
.500 329.6/232.8
.600 361.9/245.1
.650 368.1/249.9
.700 364/253.1
.750 364/254.7
.800 364/256.3
Thanks!
So where's your 260 #'s? Did Dwayne have 11/32 valves? I'll bet he does, that's standard Indy size too IIRC
Lift" I/E
.100 72.5/58.2
.200 153.7/118.6
.300 224.3/178.2
.400 285.2/218.2
.500 329.6/232.8
.600 361.9/245.1
.650 368.1/249.9
.700 364/253.1
.750 364/254.7
.800 364/256.3
Thanks!
So where's your 260 #'s? Did Dwayne have 11/32 valves? I'll bet he does, that's standard Indy size too IIRC
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 04:46 PM
indy size is 2.20 at 5.4 ??
haven't sent them up , he never responded if he had the valve when i asked in the post , probably didn't see it ...
haven't sent them up , he never responded if he had the valve when i asked in the post , probably didn't see it ...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 04:50 PM
Oh, is it 2.200"? My bad, thought it was 2.19".
He can use the indy length or BBC for flow 'checking springs', pretty sure that's what he did with mine.
We know he has the exhaust valve
He can use the indy length or BBC for flow 'checking springs', pretty sure that's what he did with mine.
We know he has the exhaust valve
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 05:06 PM
what did you end up doing for valves ??
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 05:59 PM
Ain't got 'em yet, heck I still only "Have" one head!
I'll wait till Dwayne sends me the other one, probably get a set of Fereas custom cut. I think Chuck had a good Idea....get all the rocker gear first, check/verify all the geometry (I have some 11/32 "dummy" valves...no 2.200" though, sorry!
), then order the valves.
Makes sense to me
I'll wait till Dwayne sends me the other one, probably get a set of Fereas custom cut. I think Chuck had a good Idea....get all the rocker gear first, check/verify all the geometry (I have some 11/32 "dummy" valves...no 2.200" though, sorry!
), then order the valves.Makes sense to me
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/09/04 06:24 PM
i was wondering , i was thinking of goingthe custom route also .
funny , i only have one head also ...
funny , i only have one head also ...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/10/04 07:43 PM
Maybe you can talk FAST into cutting down the 2.25" for you????
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/11/04 12:22 AM
i might have a 2.20 valve laying around.
if not, i'd just get a budget 2.25 BBC valve and cut it down.
if not, i'd just get a budget 2.25 BBC valve and cut it down.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/11/04 05:06 AM
Quote:
i might have a 2.20 valve laying around.
if not, i'd just get a budget 2.25 BBC valve and cut it down.
ding ding ding ... we have a winner , the stage 6 will be there friday ,
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/17/04 03:08 PM
John,
Did you send Dwayne the 260's yet?
Got mine back from Dwayne on Friday, now the fun begins and the wallet drains
Billet caps will be on the dance card!!
Did you send Dwayne the 260's yet?
Got mine back from Dwayne on Friday, now the fun begins and the wallet drains
Billet caps will be on the dance card!!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/17/04 03:26 PM
no , i forgot to bring them over to my dad before i went to the nats , i'm going to run them over tonight for him to drop off tomorrow ...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 01:15 AM
heres dwaynes numbers vs what chapman advertises for the 260cc head
chapman
Flow Figures @ 28"
Intake Exhaust
.100 71 55
.200 157 112
.300 230 177
.400 290 211
.500 325 233
.600 351 242
.700 351 252
PRH
lift---in/ex
.100--71.5/58.2
.200-150.0/118.6
.300-219.4/180.0
.400-278.7/219.4
.500-323.6/233.9
.550-338.9/240.3
.600-352.3/243.5
.650-348.5/246.7
.700-348.5/249.9
.750-348.5/251.5
.800-348.5/253.1
they might get my car deep into the 12's
chapman
Flow Figures @ 28"
Intake Exhaust
.100 71 55
.200 157 112
.300 230 177
.400 290 211
.500 325 233
.600 351 242
.700 351 252
PRH
lift---in/ex
.100--71.5/58.2
.200-150.0/118.6
.300-219.4/180.0
.400-278.7/219.4
.500-323.6/233.9
.550-338.9/240.3
.600-352.3/243.5
.650-348.5/246.7
.700-348.5/249.9
.750-348.5/251.5
.800-348.5/253.1
they might get my car deep into the 12's
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 01:24 AM
Quote:
PHR
lift---in/ex
.100--71.5/58.2
.200-150.0/118.6
.300-219.4/180.0
.400-278.7/219.4
.500-323.6/233.9
.550-338.9/240.3
.600-352.3/243.5
.650-348.5/246.7
.700-348.5/249.9
.750-348.5/251.5
.800-348.5/253.1
WOW....you had Popular Hot Rodding flow those heads??
Posted By: M_D
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 02:10 AM
Those numbers look comparable to the E.M. heads, except they are stronger in the mid-lifts. It would be interesting to have side by side numbers with the same bore adapter.
Posted By: LA360
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 10:20 AM
Are you running these on the EMC 471 Short John???
AL...
AL...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 03:01 PM
Quote:
Are you running these on the EMC 471 Short John???
AL...
they will be on the block , but it may grow in inches ??? if i can come up with another crank and rods i may just set the EM shortblock aside and build it just to flog it on the dyno later , same cam , but i would need to get another intake that fit the smaller port window of these .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 04:04 PM
Quote:Quote:
PHR
lift---in/ex
.100--71.5/58.2
.200-150.0/118.6
.300-219.4/180.0
.400-278.7/219.4
.500-323.6/233.9
.550-338.9/240.3
.600-352.3/243.5
.650-348.5/246.7
.700-348.5/249.9
.750-348.5/251.5
.800-348.5/253.1
WOW....you had Popular Hot Rodding flow those heads??
its amazing the stuff that gets by my dislexia
Posted By: cudarex
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/20/04 04:27 PM
Quote:
heres dwaynes numbers vs what chapman advertises for the 260cc head
chapman
Flow Figures @ 28"
Intake Exhaust
.100 71 55
.200 157 112
.300 230 177
.400 290 211
.500 325 233
.600 351 242
.700 351 252
PRH
lift---in/ex
.100--71.5/58.2
.200-150.0/118.6
.300-219.4/180.0
.400-278.7/219.4
.500-323.6/233.9
.550-338.9/240.3
.600-352.3/243.5
.650-348.5/246.7
.700-348.5/249.9
.750-348.5/251.5
.800-348.5/253.1 they might get my car deep into the 12's
Ya, with the emergency brake on maybe.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 08/21/04 12:56 AM
John,
Nice buddy!!
Now get 'em BOTH in the Achives!!!
Nice buddy!!
Now get 'em BOTH in the Achives!!!
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 09/08/04 01:55 AM
Mods,
Can't we get both sets of Chapman flow data into the BB archives??
I started looking for pistons today, guess I'll be looking for a set of JE's with ~ 1.28" CH, something in the neighborhood of 520grams.
Can't we get both sets of Chapman flow data into the BB archives??
I started looking for pistons today, guess I'll be looking for a set of JE's with ~ 1.28" CH, something in the neighborhood of 520grams.
Posted By: fast68plymouth
Re: Fast flowed my Chapmans today! - 09/08/04 01:23 PM
Quote:
Mods,
Can't we get both sets of Chapman flow data into the BB archives??
seems like a good idea to me.