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What parts to build a 600hp 727?
#1229020
05/07/12 06:36 PM
05/07/12 06:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,288
Danville, NH
Mopar_Mike
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,288
Danville, NH
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I have stock 67 440HP 727 transmission I want to have it built to handle my 600hp Hemi. Its gonna see some track use so it has to be tough. What parts should I get to have it built up. I plan to run a 3500+ stall converter. Thanks!
Last edited by Mopar_Mike; 05/07/12 06:36 PM.
RS23L7 4-Speed
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: rickraw]
#1229022
05/07/12 06:57 PM
05/07/12 06:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,852
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,852
MI, usa
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Stock Rabestoes clutches,and bands. 4plates in the high drum. Turbo action manual V.B. ,3.8-4.2 lever. 3 pinion stock planets. These parts have gone 10.0-11.0 in my cars for thousands of passes w/o any failure.
Doug
Last edited by dvw; 05/07/12 06:58 PM.
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: dvw]
#1229025
05/07/12 10:52 PM
05/07/12 10:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Stock Rabestoes clutches,and bands. 4plates in the high drum. Turbo action manual V.B. ,3.8-4.2 lever. 3 pinion stock planets. These parts have gone 10.0-11.0 in my cars for thousands of passes w/o any failure.
Doug
 ..heck even a stock one freshened up will
work for 600 hp... but you might want a few things
for longevity
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: quickd100]
#1229027
05/08/12 08:46 AM
05/08/12 08:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,076
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,076
Niles , Ohio
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I agree call John at CRT.He is one of the best and is very helpful.My kid has one of his trannys.Best $$$ he spent on the car.Been beat on for at least 8 years and no problems at all.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: Mopar_Mike]
#1229028
05/08/12 12:02 PM
05/08/12 12:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,928
NC
440Jim
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,928
NC
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You don't absolutely need a lot for 600hp in a 727. But 50 yr old parts can fail, so if you have the money a few extras are risk reduction. Number 1 item is a good valve body (Griner, A&A, CRT, etc) For safety the aftermarket front drum (resists explosion after a sprag failure). A few small cost items for piece of mind: - Reinforced front band strut ~$25 - All new bushings and washers for the 1st build (refresh maybe not) - Babbit converter bushing in the trans pump housing - If you don't spend for the hardened pump gears, at least put new ones in (cheap) - Billet rear servo and HD retainer (mrRandyj) *won't crack* - That '67 front clutch piston will only take 10 springs, so you might want to upgrade to a later piston for more springs if the valve body and builder recommend it for shift timing. But filling it with 10 new springs may be fine. A 727 can do 600 hp with very little changes. But some things are nice to have for additional piece of mind or to assure a good part. Below are some other options: Quote:
If you are going to a trans brake, the trans must be modified for its use during the build, so now is the time to put it in.
For example, drilled oil pressure relief holes in the clutch, drilled case for the solenoid wire, relocated vent,
number of front clutch springs, etc.
I don't have any cook book list to give, but here is my 2-cents, consider all advice.
For the front band, don't use kevlar. I like the solid/ridgid band rather than the flex band. Red lining. The rear band isn't so critical, and the kevlar should last a life time if the trans works properly. Typically a trans brake likes 15 springs in the front clutch. Depending on the manual valve body selected, 12-15 springs.
- A good valve body (with a brake if applicable)
- Check everything for wear (pump rotors, drums, ring rubbing surfaces, etc.)
- Relocate the vent with a brake (plug the front vent)
- All new bushings (just do it now, any refresh maybe not)
- All new thrust washers (cheap insurance)
- Set clutch pack clearances for the application
ex/ 0.015" per front disc (0.060" for 4 discs, 0.075" for 5 discs)
ex/ 0.025"-0.035" rear with 4 discs
- Check sprag for wear, at a minimum new rollers and springs
- The best improvement would be with a 16 roller sprag like the A&A Ultimate or Coan Super Sprag
- 3.8 or 4.2 front band servo lever (see valve body instructions)
- Rigid/solid front band (IMO releases better than flex band)
- Reinforced front band strut (servo to band)
- Babbit converter bushing in the trans pump housing
- Pre-'71 "solid" front servo with 2 springs, or shim the newer oil cushioned servo so it is solid
- Shim the rear servo so the cushion spring is almost solid
- A billet rear servo with a stronger retainer and stiffer spring is good with low band apply. <see mrRandyj>
I like the oil passage enlargement mods (ported reaction shaft support between the rings, clutch retainer holes 5/32", 1/16" oil hole to the sprag).
-And an aluminum or aftermarket steel front drum is a safety consideration.
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: Mopar_Mike]
#1229030
05/08/12 01:54 PM
05/08/12 01:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,374
Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,374
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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I had a 620 hp 440 in my 3700# cuda and ran 10.40s at 128-129 mph w/ it for 3 years. The trans was a rebuilt 727 w/ a T/A MVB, deep pan, and a good 9" converter. It was basically stock internally. With that said, I do recommend getting a billet drum so you don't have one explode on you. My stock drum didn't explode until I put over 800 hp through it for 2 years, but I definitely don't want that to happen again! 500 hp cars have exploded drums before. 
CHIP
'70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60
'69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60
'71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75
'73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75
'90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt
'06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#1229031
05/08/12 02:02 PM
05/08/12 02:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,050
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,050
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
500 hp cars have exploded drums before.
stock 318 2bbls will explode a drum . I shifted the trans into R ... for racing ... when I was 18 at about 40mph on my moms 72 fury . Years later when I took the trans apart , long after it was junked and I turned the case over and the outer race and pieces of the case fell out.
Luckily it never exploded with my mom driving it .
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: JohnRR]
#2967487
09/26/21 11:24 AM
09/26/21 11:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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I came across this old thread while doing a search. This is where I am going, with putting my 470" stroker in my 68 road runner. The trans is stock OE to the car and was freshened 25 to 30 years ago, and at that time the shift firmness was improved. Unfortunately the guy that did the work has passed on now, so I am not able to confirm how that was achieved.
We want to keep it automatic shifting, and will probably not be racing it due to concerns of body twisting .
I am thinking I will buy a billet front drum for safety. What other parts should I consider for the automatic version ? Is a bolt in sprag / orc needed ?
I noticed most folks used a RMVB and I do not want to go that route.
Also planning to use the original torque converter. Any ideas as to how that will respond to 620 lbs. ft. torque ? It makes that at 3500 rpm.
There are trans companies like TCI that have 727s rated for 850 hp and no mention of billet front drums ! That sounds like a dangerous path to me. Am I wrong ?
Thanks,
Mark
Last edited by Hemi Allstate; 09/26/21 08:12 PM.
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: Hemi Allstate]
#2967497
09/26/21 12:16 PM
09/26/21 12:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,479
north of coder
moparx
"Butt Crack Bob"
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"Butt Crack Bob"
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,479
north of coder
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if a reverse pattern is out of the question, a trans-go TF2 kit will allow it to automatically shift in drive, but allow full manual when needed. if a full manual valve body is wanted, trans-go and b&m offer full manual, forward pattern shift kits. as to the bolt in sprag, i have been under the impression those were not really necessary unless the sprag race is loose in the case.  also, i seem to remember if going to change the sprag, there was an article about using the sprag from a C-6 transmission, as it has more elements. however, i have not been able to find that article, nor able to find anyone to confirm or deny my foggy memory of this. a new drum is always good, but i remember mr. P-body claiming for years if a guy worked the transmission correctly, that would prevent over-speeding the drum. so i don't know. 
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: Hemi Allstate]
#2967577
09/26/21 05:43 PM
09/26/21 05:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,228
Bend,OR USA
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What are your feet and legs worth? Buy a good front drum now and use it   I say this based on you not knowing how much abuse the current front drum has been through 
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 09/26/21 05:44 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: moparx]
#2967585
09/26/21 06:03 PM
09/26/21 06:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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[quote=moparx]if a reverse pattern is out of the question, a trans-go TF2 kit will allow it to automatically shift in drive, but allow full manual when needed. I really want to stick with automatic shift , so the TF2 will work fine. Thanks Mark
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2967592
09/26/21 06:21 PM
09/26/21 06:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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What are your feet and legs worth? Buy a good front drum now and use it I say this based on you not knowing how much abuse the current front drum has been through Cab, I really think this has had minimal abuse, since it was my mother's car since new. I never abused it as far as burnouts etc. , and I don't think my sisters did either. That said, I was going to spring for the billet steel drum for safety sake, since they may want to drive the car again when I get it finished. I want it to be safe. Cope sells a loaded steel drum all set up with clutches and steels and I thought I would have a local shop install the parts. Is there anything else that I should do for upgrades? I have a full manual 727 in my Allstate that I had CRT build with ultimate sprag and billet front drum etc. So I do value my feet and legs pretty high in $. I was surprised that the 727 sold by B&M and TCI said nothing about the front drum. Thanks Mark
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: 440Jim]
#2967606
09/26/21 07:01 PM
09/26/21 07:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 879
Missouri
jwb123
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 879
Missouri
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You don't absolutely need a lot for 600hp in a 727. But 50 yr old parts can fail, so if you have the money a few extras are risk reduction. Number 1 item is a good valve body (Griner, A&A, CRT, etc) For safety the aftermarket front drum (resists explosion after a sprag failure). A few small cost items for piece of mind: - Reinforced front band strut ~$25 - All new bushings and washers for the 1st build (refresh maybe not) - Babbit converter bushing in the trans pump housing - If you don't spend for the hardened pump gears, at least put new ones in (cheap) - Billet rear servo and HD retainer (mrRandyj) *won't crack* - That '67 front clutch piston will only take 10 springs, so you might want to upgrade to a later piston for more springs if the valve body and builder recommend it for shift timing. But filling it with 10 new springs may be fine. A 727 can do 600 hp with very little changes. But some things are nice to have for additional piece of mind or to assure a good part. Below are some other options: If you are going to a trans brake, the trans must be modified for its use during the build, so now is the time to put it in.
For example, drilled oil pressure relief holes in the clutch, drilled case for the solenoid wire, relocated vent,
number of front clutch springs, etc.
I don't have any cook book list to give, but here is my 2-cents, consider all advice.
For the front band, don't use kevlar. I like the solid/ridgid band rather than the flex band. Red lining. The rear band isn't so critical, and the kevlar should last a life time if the trans works properly. Typically a trans brake likes 15 springs in the front clutch. Depending on the manual valve body selected, 12-15 springs.
- A good valve body (with a brake if applicable)
- Check everything for wear (pump rotors, drums, ring rubbing surfaces, etc.)
- Relocate the vent with a brake (plug the front vent)
- All new bushings (just do it now, any refresh maybe not)
- All new thrust washers (cheap insurance)
- Set clutch pack clearances for the application
ex/ 0.015" per front disc (0.060" for 4 discs, 0.075" for 5 discs)
ex/ 0.025"-0.035" rear with 4 discs
- Check sprag for wear, at a minimum new rollers and springs
- The best improvement would be with a 16 roller sprag like the A&A Ultimate or Coan Super Sprag
- 3.8 or 4.2 front band servo lever (see valve body instructions)
- Rigid/solid front band (IMO releases better than flex band)
- Reinforced front band strut (servo to band)
- Babbit converter bushing in the trans pump housing
- Pre-'71 "solid" front servo with 2 springs, or shim the newer oil cushioned servo so it is solid
- Shim the rear servo so the cushion spring is almost solid
- A billet rear servo with a stronger retainer and stiffer spring is good with low band apply. <see mrRandyj>
I like the oil passage enlargement mods (ported reaction shaft support between the rings, clutch retainer holes 5/32", 1/16" oil hole to the sprag).
-And an aluminum or aftermarket steel front drum is a safety consideration. I run the same basic combination as this post, it holds 800HP for several years no problems.
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: jwb123]
#2967620
09/26/21 08:07 PM
09/26/21 08:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
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; I run the same basic combination as this post, it holds 800HP for several years no problems. [/quote] Thanks for your input. I will make a shopping list . Mark
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
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Re: What parts to build a 600hp 727?
[Re: Mopar_Mike]
#2968109
09/28/21 10:59 AM
09/28/21 10:59 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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One issue if it is a 1967 model. This could have an early course 19-spline input shaft, or the later fine 24-spline? (I think it is 24?) input shaft.
The pump stator supports are different too for the different input shafts, and all the pre-1971 transmissions used a different front drum with a narrow bushing.
I think all the aftermarket drums are the '71 and up wide bushing version. I don't know of an aftermarket drum for the earlier version with the narrow bushing, but I haven't looked for one either in the last 10 years.
What I am getting at is it might be easier and cheaper to start with a '71 up transmission.
The stock transmission with a good rebuild and TF-2 shift kit can withstand around 600 HP in a light car, or one that dosen't hook hard.
Above that the aluminum front planetary gear might fail from the shaft splines breaking in the aluminum gear body.
For safety, it is common to install a billet front drum (which usually allows 5 front clutches too), and a bolt in "Super Sprag" that has more rollers than the stock sprag.
The TF-2 kit will have you modify the rear band servo, has a new front band strut. I don't recall if the accumalator is blocked or uses a different spring (different shift kits / years have used both?)
I don't use the forward restrictor plug that comes in the shift kit.
The Alto red clutches and kolene steels are commonly used, but about twice the cost of Raybestos high-energy clutches which are also good.
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