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Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: RobX4406] #1227195 05/05/12 12:54 AM 05/05/12 12:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	Quote: Those plates are about $7 at O'rielly's or autozone IIRC. They tend to get "lost"... That 1" spacer may do the same, however, it introduces other potential issues. Get that plate #2732 and try again. Reset the carb idle mix screws to 1.5 turns out. If you get the plate on, the idle should increase a bunch because your leak should be gone. Thanks man.... I'll give that a shot. Thanks for putting up with all my stupid questions and problems.. this is completely new to me. I'm not an "engine tuning" guy... I went to school for body/paint work

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227196 05/05/12 01:10 AM 05/05/12 01:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central RobX4406 I Live Here
RobX4406 I Live Here Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central	No sweat Mark. Just don't get caught up in more than one thing. Take a systematic approach, one thing at a time, and things aren't so overwhelming. You still have vacuum issues, those need to be addressed. Once you get that done, you can start on getting the idle settings dialed in. The timing should be close at idle right now, 16-18 is pretty good on that set up from the others I've been involved with. As long as it cranks over, fires up when warm and doesn't kick back on the starter, you're good. It should light off with a bump of the key.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: RobX4406] #1227197 05/06/12 05:58 PM 05/06/12 05:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	OK.. so when my neighbor came over to help me the other day, he noticed that the rubber ring on the harmonic balancer was bulged a little bit in one spot.. he thinks the outer ring may have slipped a bit.. which would make trying to set the timing almost impossible. So today, I rotated the crank until the TDC mark lined up with the timing cover mark for '0'.. and pulled the #1 plug. I put a dowel in the plug hole, and slowly rotated the crank by hand to see if the TDC indicator on the balancer was "true" .. it seems off by about 5 degrees. So I put some timing tape on the balancer, at the "new" TDC mark. I also got that Edelbrock plate that was referenced above, and put that in between the carb and intake (with new gaskets). I also got a vacuum gauge to help me try to set my idle mixtures.... It seems like I should be able to get the engine to idle at around 800-900 rpms, right? I can't get it to idle (and stay running) at less than 1100 or close to 1200... there's gotta be something else going on.. I just have no $#@#$%@%^%$^"ing idea what.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227198 05/07/12 12:38 PM 05/07/12 12:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	If the outer ring on the HB has slipped, will that cause any problems other than an inaccurate timing reading?

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227199 05/07/12 12:49 PM 05/07/12 12:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio Challenger 1 Too Many Posts
Challenger 1 Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio	I had one come loose and eat my timing cover. I caught it before any real damage occured. Last edited by Challenger 1; 05/07/12 01:57 PM.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227200 05/07/12 01:30 PM 05/07/12 01:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central RobX4406 I Live Here
RobX4406 I Live Here Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central	When you have it idling at 1200 rpm do you know what the timing is at 800 rpm? It may be into the advance mechanism at the 1200 level and when you drop it in gear that advance is gone. Might need someone to help you with putting it in gear, foot on brake and seeing what the results of that test are. Or, just turn the idle down and watch the timing mark, doesn't matter if it's right or not, you want to observe if any change occurs. If you are questioning whether the balancer has turned, set, initial using the vacuum gauge or strater kickback method. Set total by the 'where it doesn't ping' method if you don't remark the balancer using a TDC stop. Note where each of those numbers fall and use them as references in the future.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: RobX4406] #1227201 05/07/12 01:40 PM 05/07/12 01:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Mark have you tried disconnecting the MSD and running it on just the pertronics ? One thing you need to remember is what MSD stands for ... MULTIPLE SPARK DISCHARGE , it can be hard to time an engine with an MSD because of the multiple sparks it throws below 3000rpm. But if I were you I'd be doing something about that balancer if the outer ring truely has slipped. what engine is it ?

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: JohnRR] #1227202 05/07/12 02:07 PM 05/07/12 02:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	JohnRR - it's a 360. As far as idle, it's hard to check the timing at anything less than 1100 or 1200 because it wants to die, so it requires constant throttle feathering to keep it going.. as far as I can tell, I've got it around 18-20 degrees advance at the "idle" speed of 900 or so.. but like I said, it's hard to say for sure, because it doesn't want to stay running at that low of an RPM. I'll have to see about disconnecting the MSD.. I don't remember how it's all wired in now, and all the wiring is nice and bundled up,... could be a pain in the butt to figure out how to disconnect it .. but I'll give it a shot.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227203 05/07/12 03:33 PM 05/07/12 03:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,607 Western Washington Sixgun top fuel
Sixgun top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,607 Western Washington	OK my 2 cents. RobX is right, if you have all these issues running around, it's hard to get a plan of action in a linear progression. Sometimes I 'pretend' it's a customer car and either I am coming in "cold" or I do not believe anything they told me. (I am the tech, it's my job to troubleshoot,info given may be inaccurate) Double check your firing order.I have seen the 5-7 traded more often than you'd think(done it myself) You had vacuum leaks, you may have fixed them-GOOD!Do the careful covering of the venturis thing again and see if the idle still speeds up-maybe the intake gaskets themselves are leaking.You can check PART of this by spraying penetrant around the top of the ports.If the idle speeds up, you need to regasket the intake.Obviously you cannot check the underside this way, but it's a start. what kind of cam do you have?this 360 I just did has "one step above stock 340" and it has a pretty good lope,and runs rough until warmed up, but pulls a solid 15" of vacuum at about 900-1000 idle. warm it up good before trying to adjust further some cam setups REQUIRE a 'short fast curve' to get the initial timing up where it wants to be, while keeping the total advance to a "reasonable" 35'(this varies a bit for different engine combos) I have a stock style chrysler dizzy with slightly welded up slots to get the initial where the motor "wants" it.Still running about 35' total. if I read between the lines, you have pertronics stuff triggering an MSD? You might consider scrounging up a stock chrysler mag pickup dizzy to simplify your task?just a thought on overcomplication. when you do get the initial where you want it, and plug the dizzy vac can into the PORTED orifice on the carb, you will see 50'of advance @ like 3000 rpm depending on the springs and weights in the dizzy.This is "normal".Timing should return to your initial @ idle. when you feel you have eliminated most (hopefully ALL) of the underlying issues try a vacuum gauge on the unported carb vacuum barb,and adjust your mixture screws for highest warm idle vacuum.Won't always work on all setups, but sometimes does.Your ear is just not all that accurate.Vacuum should be relatively steady and not pulse too much if there are no serious mechanical problems in the engine(burnt exhaust valve, wiped cam lobe,worn out or broken piston ring etc.) Best of luck, hope this helps. The only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked and answered. C

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227204 05/07/12 03:45 PM 05/07/12 03:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Quote: JohnRR - it's a 360. As far as idle, it's hard to check the timing at anything less than 1100 or 1200 because it wants to die, so it requires constant throttle feathering to keep it going.. as far as I can tell, I've got it around 18-20 degrees advance at the "idle" speed of 900 or so.. but like I said, it's hard to say for sure, because it doesn't want to stay running at that low of an RPM. I'll have to see about disconnecting the MSD.. I don't remember how it's all wired in now, and all the wiring is nice and bundled up,... could be a pain in the butt to figure out how to disconnect it .. but I'll give it a shot. It should be pretty easy to do , I assume you have the instructions for it ? If not go to the MSD website and get them. I have a nice 360 Balancer should you decide to change it out .

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: Sixgun] #1227205 05/07/12 03:59 PM 05/07/12 03:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	Quote: Double check your firing order.I have seen the 5-7 traded more often than you'd think(done it myself) Yup, checked this too... it's correct Quote: You had vacuum leaks, you may have fixed them-GOOD!Do the careful covering of the venturis thing again and see if the idle still speeds up-maybe the intake gaskets themselves are leaking.You can check PART of this by spraying penetrant around the top of the ports.If the idle speeds up, you need to regasket the intake.Obviously you cannot check the underside this way, but it's a start. I'll double check that... thanks.. forgot about that technique. Quote: what kind of cam do you have?this 360 I just did has "one step above stock 340" and it has a pretty good lope,and runs rough until warmed up, but pulls a solid 15" of vacuum at about 900-1000 idle. It's a Comp Cam XE268H - moderate cam with the following specs: Xtreme Energy XE268H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Kit Lift: .477''/.480'' Duration: 268�/280� RPM Range: 1600-5800 Since I can't get it to maintain an 'idle' of less than 1100 or 1200, I can't tell whether it's keeping steady vacuum there or not.. Quote: warm it up good before trying to adjust further Yup, had it warmed up to about 200 degrees as I was trying to tune it Quote: some cam setups REQUIRE a 'short fast curve' to get the initial timing up where it wants to be, while keeping the total advance to a "reasonable" 35'(this varies a bit for different engine combos) I have a stock style chrysler dizzy with slightly welded up slots to get the initial where the motor "wants" it.Still running about 35' total. if I read between the lines, you have pertronics stuff triggering an MSD? You might consider scrounging up a stock chrysler mag pickup dizzy to simplify your task?just a thought on overcomplication. "Scrounge up" some Mopar parts? ha I'll see what I can find at a Junkyard.. probably not much though. Quote: when you do get the initial where you want it, and plug the dizzy vac can into the PORTED orifice on the carb, you will see 50'of advance @ like 3000 rpm depending on the springs and weights in the dizzy.This is "normal".Timing should return to your initial @ idle. OK.. I did see that,.. it went up to about 55 or so.. if I recall correctly Quote: when you feel you have eliminated most (hopefully ALL) of the underlying issues try a vacuum gauge on the unported carb vacuum barb,and adjust your mixture screws for highest warm idle vacuum.Won't always work on all setups, but sometimes does.Your ear is just not all that accurate.Vacuum should be relatively steady and not pulse too much if there are no serious mechanical problems in the engine(burnt exhaust valve, wiped cam lobe,worn out or broken piston ring etc.) Best of luck, hope this helps. Thanks for the response.. I just need to be able to get it to stay running at 900 rpm or so in order to be able to adjust the mixture screws on the carb.. I wonder if I need to get a new HB, since mine doesn't seem to be accurately reflecting TDC.. .?

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227206 05/07/12 04:16 PM 05/07/12 04:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,607 Western Washington Sixgun top fuel
Sixgun top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,607 Western Washington	OK seems like you are covering all the basics and are moving on to more evil issues.Soooo... is your curve right? Can you get the initial(mechanical ONLY, vac plugged)that you are told to set at, AND keep the total where it needs to be? BTW paying close attention to JohnRR is a very good idea.I do. Darn! You have EXACTLY the same cam I have in this 360 John helped me out with.I like this grind! I have an airgap intake, Eddy 750 (I heard John groan when I typed that)and ported 2.02s. Idles kind of ragged, but I'm still breaking it in.Rarely stalls in gear. I also have an old dampener (cruddy) I will not vouch for, for free (old style 360 without big weight) though John has you covered there. You could probably get a NEW pioneer or something from O reillys or NAPA pretty cheap. If you want to cover the mailing I can give you a stock chrysler mag trigger dizzy as a "core" (will need vac can and new pickup, cannot trust old crud)If that helps LMK. John, the fricken'360 runs GREAT!!!thanks again for the tech and the piston/rod deal!My Wife is pretty happy too! C

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227207 05/07/12 04:26 PM 05/07/12 04:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central RobX4406 I Live Here
RobX4406 I Live Here Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central	First Check for vac leaks again. If it's still got leaks, you will be chasing your tail! Second Mark try this. Get it started and twist the intial up more. Whatever you observe now, turn it up another 4 degrees and see if you can get it to idle down. See if the timing setting you observed at high idls has changed to a lower number with the new lower idle speed. As long as it starts without kicking back, bump it 2* at a time until it becomes hard to start, then back it off 2*. The numbers that were suggested are just that, suggestions, let the engine tell you what it wants. third... Do you have any control of the primary side of the carb. Do the idle mix screws do anything right now. Can you see any fuel dripping in from the boosters? Here's some stuff that should be present on that engine. Vacuum at idle of about 850-900 should be in the 13-15 area minimum. It should idle cleanly at 850-900 rpm In gear it should drop maybe 100 rpm.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: RobX4406] #1227208 05/07/12 04:58 PM 05/07/12 04:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	Quote: First Check for vac leaks again. If it's still got leaks, you will be chasing your tail! Will do.. I feel like I'm getting dizzy from chasing my tail already! It's hard to tell when it'a a vacuum leak, or if the idle is just increasing due to fumes from the carb spray making it in the top of the carb.. Quote: Second Mark try this. Get it started and twist the intial up more. Whatever you observe now, turn it up another 4 degrees and see if you can get it to idle down. I'll try that.. it seems like it speeds way up when I advance it up to about 25 or 30.. so I should try that, and then try to dial the idle back down to see if it smooths out? Quote: See if the timing setting you observed at high idls has changed to a lower number with the new lower idle speed. As long as it starts without kicking back, bump it 2* at a time until it becomes hard to start, then back it off 2*. The numbers that were suggested are just that, suggestions, let the engine tell you what it wants. OK, when I was playing around, I did observe this behavior at one point.. so I know what you're talking about.. I'll try using that as an indicator too. Quote: third... Do you have any control of the primary side of the carb. Do the idle mix screws do anything right now. Can you see any fuel dripping in from the boosters? Uh.. hard to tell if the idle mixture screws are doing much at this point, maybe if I can get the idle RPM down, I might be able to tell. At the risk of sounding stupid, I'm not sure which is the "primary side" of the carb (it's an Edelbrock Performer 1405 - 600cfm). Quote: Here's some stuff that should be present on that engine. Vacuum at idle of about 850-900 should be in the 13-15 area minimum. It should idle cleanly at 850-900 rpm In gear it should drop maybe 100 rpm. Thanks again. I swear, I wish some of you guys lived closer.. I'd provide beer and pizza if you could come over to assist!

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227209 05/07/12 05:06 PM 05/07/12 05:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	Primary side is the front throttle bores toward the front of the engine. if you have the throttle blades open to far you'll be off the idle circuit . here is something to check , another member had a issue that he couldn't figure out ... pull off the dist cap and grab the rotor and twist it it should turn then go back to where it was, it's spring loaded persay.... since the car has been sitting for sometime it may have become stuck and this will cause you grief.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: JohnRR] #1227210 05/07/12 05:11 PM 05/07/12 05:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central RobX4406 I Live Here
RobX4406 I Live Here Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 12,271 Overpriced Housing Central	If you turned more advance into the engine and it picked up RPM, it wants the advance. Turn some in and see if you can turn the idle down. Try 4 more degrees at current idle and turn the idle down and observe if the timing stayed the same. The primary side is the side with the big choke plate over it, the front pair. Side with the idle mix screws.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: RobX4406] #1227211 05/07/12 05:47 PM 05/07/12 05:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	I'm afraid to ask this.. because I don't want to hear that it may be the problem.. but how can I tell if my cam timing is off? when I installed the cam, I made sure the dimples on the gears were lined up properly.. but from what I understand, if it's off by a tooth, it could be a problem. I'm praying that's not the problem, I really don't want to have to tear into the Q#$%#$%@#$%^^^)*)(&&"ing engine.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227212 05/07/12 06:06 PM 05/07/12 06:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,004 U.S.S.A.	If it was off by a tooth I think you would know it , but that said there is no guarantee that the cam timing is right without using a degree wheel.

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227213 05/08/12 01:09 PM 05/08/12 01:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA cal_gecko OP I Live Here
cal_gecko OP I Live Here Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,589 Sacramento, CA	OK.. so something is definitely amiss. I just went out and figured I'd try the technique of just turning the distributor until the idle got the highest, then backing the idle speed down to see if it would maintain. I did this, and got it to 'sorta' idle around 900-1000 rpm... but it required 30-32 degrees of advance timing in order to do so. RPMs fluctuated by about 75-100 rpm while at an idle, but it did maintain it for several minutes.. I revved it up a bit and it sounded good - a little pop out the exhaust as I let off the throttle ... and it didn't want to settle back into an idle, it just died right after decreasing RPMS from me hitting the throttle. I'm uploading a video to youtube, showing what the vacuum gauge and tach were doing while it was idling.. but this is the best I've been able to get it to idle so far.. but should it really be able to take 30-32 degrees of advance at an idle?

Re: Troubles getting timing set on 360 [Re: cal_gecko] #1227214 05/08/12 01:20 PM 05/08/12 01:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio Challenger 1 Too Many Posts
Challenger 1 Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio	I think you might want to pull both valve covers and see if all the rocker arms are going up and down checking for a wiped lope. Man I hope not but I think you should check or do a compression test.

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