Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
#1200034
03/20/12 02:00 AM
03/20/12 02:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 339
California
moparbroz
OP
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OP
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California
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Is it necessary to go to the bare metal, use a etching primer and then the Evercoat body filler?
I have received conflicting information from several sources and wanted to run this by the good members of moparts.
I have heard that evercoat can only go over bare metal, and have also heard it can go over sanded/prepped primer/paint.
I have glazing putty for the final filler.
Thanks in advance!
Hebrews 11:1
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: moparbroz]
#1200035
03/20/12 02:13 AM
03/20/12 02:13 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,319
Chicago Burbs
sthemi
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master
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Posts: 3,319
Chicago Burbs
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That is because there are two schools, one says ok for bare metal, the other wants a sealed surface to bond to. The logic is that filler acts like a sponge for moisture and will rust under the filler and bubble. I have done it both ways, but currently am using epoxy primer on bare metal,(not etching) and then filler on top. It seems to work well, but truthfully I wont know for 10+ years how it really holds up.. 
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: hemibeep]
#1200037
03/20/12 09:55 AM
03/20/12 09:55 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,920
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
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master
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,920
new berlin wisconsin
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for full corrosion protection as per I-car. epoxy, let cure according to manufacturer directions, scuff with 80 grit but don't break thru epoxy, then 2K filler or 2K glazing putty.
if you apply filler over bare metal. filler can absorb water, some kinds don't. or condensation can form under the filler causing rust.
also if filler is applied over uncured epoxy you can have swelling/ shrinkage problems.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: chromedome426]
#1200039
03/20/12 11:19 AM
03/20/12 11:19 AM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 339
California
moparbroz
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OP
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California
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Thanks guys!! Quote:
This is what I've picked up from reading body shop forums.
Body fill is designed to go directly on bare metal. A good quality name brand will have some anti corrosion properties in it similar to etch primer.
Etch primer has an acid in it and should not be used under or over body fill.
Even though body fill was designed to go on bare metal. It is also safe to put over Epoxy primer that has been cured and sanded properly. This is actually the prefered method used by restoration shops and Hot rodders because it gives the best protection for your vehicle. Plus having the epoxy primer on there provides protection so you can take your time working on your project.
Most high turn over regular body shops prefer to put body fill over bare metal because it is a much faster process. They don't have to wait for the epoxy primer to cure. Time is money for them. Plus they paint soon after so the body fill doesn't have much time to absorb moister anyway.
Hebrews 11:1
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: moparbroz]
#1200040
03/23/12 12:30 PM
03/23/12 12:30 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 936
OLD318
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 936
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Two rules to follow if you want... Rule One: Whatever the brand of body filler... READ THE CAN. If the manufacturer intended the filler to go over metal it will say that... "apply over bare steel, aluminum" ON THE CAN!!! Example. Evercoat Z-GRIP says on the can "over bare steel" Evercoat RAGE GOLD does not say that! FWIW Rage GOLD costs twice as much as ZGRIP!!!!! but both are etching fillers.. The rule is, you can put it over bare metal IF that is written on the CAN!!!!!! never mind what anyone else says... If it is not written on the can,, you can do it but your on your own... You'll never go wrong with this approach RULE TWO: You'll never go wrong by first applying two coats of epoxy primer to the bare panel first, wait a day, scuff with 80 grit and then do your filler work... Also, FWIW: An etch(wash) primer and an epoxy primer are TWO different things. To the best of my recollection, Etch primers are NOT intended to be used directly under body filler. I could be wrong here, I don't use etch(wash)primers.. but others on here do and swear by them--- they can chime in if they want.
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: moparbroz]
#1200041
03/23/12 01:02 PM
03/23/12 01:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,572
Jacksonville Florida
elitecustombody
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,572
Jacksonville Florida
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Quote:
Is it necessary to go to the bare metal, use a etching primer and then the Evercoat body filler?
I have received conflicting information from several sources and wanted to run this by the good members of moparts.
I have heard that evercoat can only go over bare metal, and have also heard it can go over sanded/prepped primer/paint.
I have glazing putty for the final filler.
Thanks in advance!
Do not use etching primer under filler. Use epoxy primer.
Any shop that actually cares about their reputation would not apply filler over bare metal.
What type of glazing putty are you planning on using? I'm hoping it's something that comes with a hardener.Anything without hardener is trash and should not be used if you are after longlasting results.
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: elitecustombody]
#1200042
03/23/12 01:56 PM
03/23/12 01:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
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I use Evercoat Quantum1 and it specifically says you can apply direct to metal and it will survive the 500 hour salt water test. It's expensive mud, but it sands like butter and doesn't seem to shrink back hardly at all. Q1 is a hybrid polyester/epoxy filler, so that makes it more unique than just a standard polyester filler. Plus it also works well as a finish putty. Way better than Rage in my opinion. Epoxy prime before filler is cheap insurance, but I went direct to metal on the last job I did and so far it's held up just fine.
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: herkamer]
#1200043
04/11/12 11:40 AM
04/11/12 11:40 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 936
OLD318
super stock
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super stock
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Quote:
Epoxy prime before filler is cheap insurance...
No offense but I disagree with this statement.
I think it's expensive insurance!
For example, if you use PPG's DPLF epoxy primer over bare steel,
You spray two coats and wait a day, then apply filler (per p-sheet).
That's expensive stuff plus the delay in time
as opposed going DTM (direct to metal)...
The epoxy primer step adds cost and time to any job...
The real issue here is...is it worth it?
Depends on who your are and what your goal/budget is..
Professional reputations tends to view this as very much worth it!
A Weekender working on his own car, on his own time and dime
(hopefully prepping correctly) may choose otherwise.
Best of luck to you
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: OLD318]
#1200044
04/11/12 12:03 PM
04/11/12 12:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
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http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Pricing%20Info.htm$170 for 2 sprayable GALLONS of epoxy is not cheap insurance? SPI has an excellent reputation around the paint community for being a quality product. That's more than enough to prime an entire vehicle before body work, and probably reduce and use as a final sealer before paint. Yeah it's not PPG but neither is the price tag. No offense taken, but do you want to re-do an entire paint job from cutting corners? This is not the place to take shortcuts. Yes there are good DTM products as well. Epoxy is the safest bet for not having any surface issues.
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: herkamer]
#1200045
04/11/12 02:03 PM
04/11/12 02:03 PM
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 339
California
moparbroz
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OP
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California
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I want a quality job and will spend extra $$ to get there. What I would like suggestions on are: 1. Brand and sku of epoxy primer 2. Brand and sku of base coat black 3. Brand and sku clear coat for black base coat. Thanks! Quote:
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Pricing%20Info.htm
$170 for 2 sprayable GALLONS of epoxy is not cheap insurance? SPI has an excellent reputation around the paint community for being a quality product. That's more than enough to prime an entire vehicle before body work, and probably reduce and use as a final sealer before paint. Yeah it's not PPG but neither is the price tag.
No offense taken, but do you want to re-do an entire paint job from cutting corners? This is not the place to take shortcuts. Yes there are good DTM products as well. Epoxy is the safest bet for not having any surface issues.
Hebrews 11:1
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: moparbroz]
#1200046
04/11/12 02:39 PM
04/11/12 02:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
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I would use the SPI Epoxy in whatever color you choose from the above link I posted.
As far as basecoat goes, almost every manufacturer has either a factory pack black or can mix it. I've used Sherwin Williams 7000 and it covers very well. I've also shot PPG DBC and it works good too. I would suppose it is dependant on what's close to you or what can be ordered. I see you are in California so you may have some limited options. For most projects, I use the lower line of S-W base which is called 4th Dimension. Works great and is a good value.
Clear is an extremely subjective item, and you will get 1000 different repiles from 1000 different people. I ended up using a ceramic nano-clear on my Dakota and while it looks great, it was an absolute pain to wet sand and buff because of the hardness. I have also used budget brands with decent success, but that also was for a work truck and not a show car. The next 2 products I plan on using is the Matrix 2:1 Euroclear and possibly the latest House of Kolor Show Clear.
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
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Re: Question for paint and body folk. Evercoat....
[Re: moparbroz]
#1200047
04/11/12 05:17 PM
04/11/12 05:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Quote:
Is it necessary to go to the bare metal, use a etching primer and then the Evercoat body filler?
I have received conflicting information from several sources and wanted to run this by the good members of moparts.
I have heard that evercoat can only go over bare metal, and have also heard it can go over sanded/prepped primer/paint.
I have glazing putty for the final filler.
Thanks in advance!
If your going to use an Etch Primer(I'd recommend Dupont VARI-PRIME), do all your bodywork first, bondo only on bare metal, then Etch prime (I'm assuming the car is stripped bare, no paint?), 1 or 2 coats....I'd then recommend a (DUPONT) 2K building primer, several coats, each one blocked finer with each application of primer, fill any lows/pits/etc, with Evercoats 2 part glazing putty during the intial blocking/priming operation, your last few coats of primer, should be just that, PRIMER, and just lots of block sanding....if BC/CC is your final finish, I usually block sand the primer(2K) to 600 grit, after BC/CC, I then color sand starting at 1000 grit, then 1500, then 2000, and finish off in 2500 to 3000, no compounding, just polishing...
Use QUALITY MATERIALS, no short cuts, and you'll be rewarded with a quality finish,....of course the appearance of finished work is based on your skill sets performing bodywork
Mike
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