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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: Dcuda69]
#1186906
02/28/12 11:16 PM
02/28/12 11:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
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Quote:
There shouldn't be any alignment "tech" confused with a classic Mopar car. Camber is camber, caster is caster and toe is toe. Sure they have their quirks(unable to achieve enough pos caster w/o bushings) but still! I've done many classics and rarely had issues making one go down the road! There are literally MILLIONS of GM 4x4 trucks using torsion bars and eccentric cams on the upper control arms!!! This ain't rocket science   
I can't believe these guys. All 4WD S-10 and all full size 2wd and 4wd Chevy trucks have cams. Most 4wd have torsion bars as well. Gee, I'll bet know body's ever had to align one of them before. Bent is bent. It doesn't matter what brand it is. Plenty of guys in the Detroit area that could find the problem in 15 minutes. To bad your not close. I'd throw it on the hoist for nothing. Show me the specs. I'll bet I can come close to figuring out by looking at them alone.
Doug
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1186907
02/29/12 12:00 AM
02/29/12 12:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,678
Fresno, CA
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Quote:
A factory service manual for any 68-70 B body will have a chassis diagram showing various measurements. THESE will help to determine if the frame rails are square and parralel.
It may be stating the obvious, but with a few bent parts, it can be difficult to get within spec.
Sorry, I didn't click on your link to see what you have done, but I'll guess that you are a "hands on" guy. You are probably capable of getting the car pretty close with a few basic tools. I set up the upper control arms as follows: Rotate the REAR alignment cam to allow the rear bushing close to the engine, and the FRONT bushing toward the fender. If the camber looks too negative, adjust the rear cam only. I hope this helps.
Exactly. It may be time to take it to a frame shop, but not if the alignment was closer before the rebuild. There are a number of things that I would look at if the car were in front of me, including strut rod length, control arm straightness, k-member, etc.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186909
02/29/12 12:36 AM
02/29/12 12:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,611
Pataskala, Ohio
GTX70sixpack
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,611
Pataskala, Ohio
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Offset bushings is a band-aid to cover a real problem in your case. They are ment to be used to increase castor for high speed stability. There is no way someone can spend 5 hrs on a simple alignment and not know what is wrong. The 60s-70s Mopars take about 30 minutes to align including set up time and it couldn't take more than 15 minutes to find a problem.
You have one of 4 problems asuming you have the correct parts on it;
frame rail/rails bent
spindle bent
lower control arm bushing beat out
k-frame shifted to the right (which would probably have enlarged mouunting holes and a frame rail issue.
Once again you will have to find someone who knows what they are doing. I wish you the best of luck, I'm surrounded by idiots at my shop now, we can't find any good techs.
65 Belvedere II Station Wagon
69 Coronet R/T convertible
70 GTX
70'cuda
99 Dodge Diesel dually 4X4
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: GTX70sixpack]
#1186910
02/29/12 01:00 AM
02/29/12 01:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
I'm surrounded by idiots at my shop now, we can't find any good techs.
Lets hope that they don't read THAT. Its hard to get help moving a fridge nowadays...
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186914
02/29/12 10:37 AM
02/29/12 10:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,611
Pataskala, Ohio
GTX70sixpack
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,611
Pataskala, Ohio
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The type of equipment does not matter, if your using bubble guages or the latest and greatest, all just reads where the wheel is. It is a myth that the new equipment is a bad thing for old cars, in fact it makes the job faster and easier. As far as finding someone old enough who knows, it's not age, very few people can wrap the head around how everything relates and what has to be moved to acheive a desired setting. The new machines will even tell you how thick of shims to put where in the old GM's. The thing that most don't get on Chryslers is both ecentrics affect camber and castor and they end up guessing and setting them many different times until they get a close setting.
I would say there are less good alignment techs than there are techs who can build transmissiions. I do everything, always have. The guys I work with take there own cars to shops for repairs claiming I don't know how to do that??? Yet they work at our shop all day????? Lost in space!!!!
65 Belvedere II Station Wagon
69 Coronet R/T convertible
70 GTX
70'cuda
99 Dodge Diesel dually 4X4
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186915
02/29/12 11:06 AM
02/29/12 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
rave_12000
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
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here are the specs he got:
LEFT
camber: 0.3
caster: -0.9
toe 0.21
RIGHT
camber: -2.4
caster:-4.4
toe 0.18
total toe 0.39
steer ahead 0.02
i handed him these specs for max street perf from allpar skosh chart:
camber: -.75 to 1.0
caster 2.5 to 3.5
toe in 1/16 to 1/8"
He seemed to think that the shock tower needed to come straight out? again, could i solve this with the moog offset UCA bushings?
Last edited by rave_12000; 02/29/12 01:01 PM.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186916
02/29/12 11:35 AM
02/29/12 11:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
rave_12000
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
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to me...it doesnt look like anyone has touched the front nut on the strut bar. is there some adjustment there? if you pull that forward a bit, then you would get more castor, correct?
Last edited by rave_12000; 02/29/12 03:13 PM.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: JohnH]
#1186918
02/29/12 03:24 PM
02/29/12 03:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
rave_12000
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
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Quote:
The torsion bar adjustment is on the lower car are that goes straight up.. you are looking at the nut that holds the lower control arm foward in place.
Correct. Is there adjustment there?
I have an appointment with leroys frameworks in independence, mo. Sounds like they can bend what they need to and align for $210. ($60 for alignment). I wish I would have known about these guys before. Not enough time to get measurements today, so I will let them do it. I am thinking there is a bend somewhere.
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: rave_12000]
#1186921
02/29/12 08:50 PM
02/29/12 08:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
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Quote:
here are the specs he got:
LEFT
camber: 0.3
caster: -0.9
toe 0.21
RIGHT
camber: -2.4
caster:-4.4
toe 0.18
total toe 0.39
steer ahead 0.02
i handed him these specs for max street perf from allpar skosh chart:
camber: -.75 to 1.0
caster 2.5 to 3.5
toe in 1/16 to 1/8"
He seemed to think that the shock tower needed to come straight out? again, could i solve this with the moog offset UCA bushings?
First off an offset bushing in the left front forward position will get the left side very close to what you need. You may only get 1.5-2.0 degrees of positive caster and 0 camber which will work.. The right side is bent. With that much negative caster the lower ball joint is to far back. Either the lower arm,K-frame,spindle,or frame rail are pushed back. Quick and dirty measurement. How much distance between the rear of the front tire and the wheel well opening? Check the distance between the outer tie rod and the tire. Look for wrinkles in the frame rail behind the K-frame. Some one sharp with a tape measure will find it.
Doug
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Re: 69 charger front end alignment problems!!
[Re: dvw]
#1186922
03/01/12 12:44 AM
03/01/12 12:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
rave_12000
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 389
kansas city, mo
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Quote:
Quote:
here are the specs he got:
LEFT
camber: 0.3
caster: -0.9
toe 0.21
RIGHT
camber: -2.4
caster:-4.4
toe 0.18
total toe 0.39
steer ahead 0.02
i handed him these specs for max street perf from allpar skosh chart:
camber: -.75 to 1.0
caster 2.5 to 3.5
toe in 1/16 to 1/8"
He seemed to think that the shock tower needed to come straight out? again, could i solve this with the moog offset UCA bushings?
First off an offset bushing in the left front forward position will get the left side very close to what you need. You may only get 1.5-2.0 degrees of positive caster and 0 camber which will work.. The right side is bent. With that much negative caster the lower ball joint is to far back. Either the lower arm,K-frame,spindle,or frame rail are pushed back. Quick and dirty measurement. How much distance between the rear of the front tire and the wheel well opening? Check the distance between the outer tie rod and the tire. Look for wrinkles in the frame rail behind the K-frame. Some one sharp with a tape measure will find it.
Doug
thanks for the analysis doug.
i think there is a little more give on the driver side. he just roughed it in and really got hung up on the right side.
i think that the right rail is pushed back. it took a hit in the front that looked pretty much square to me. there is some buckling, but in front to just directly over the front of the k frame. i seriously doubt that there is a bent control arm or spindle. i gave them a serious workover when i restored them.
from brainstorming, i think that it might make since to loosen up the k frame and rear transmission mount and see how far we can pull it forward. to go further, maybe we could elongate the main k frame bolts and pull it evan further forward and suck it down with the impact wrench. this should help castor on each side. i guess offset bushings could be added if necessary. i do not think that the shock tower is bent...i just cannot see any indication on the inner fenders (i.e. bends, buckles, etc.).
i will know more tomorrow afternoon...
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