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My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) #1171633
02/04/12 11:15 AM
02/04/12 11:15 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Well, hopefully it will be a budget build. I'm completely new to this (engine building) as well as Mopars in general and kind of stumbling my way through with help from members from Moparts as well as others. I've decided to document all the ups and downs and ins n' outs of my first engine build so those of you thinking about doing this may avoid the mistakes I have, and will, make. The goal is to end up with a decent, inexpensive, reliable street motor and slowly rebuild the engine that's in the car now the way I want it. A street beast.

Current engine


While the current 440 (stock '66 from an imperial or similar) runs ok (albeit very tired) it uses a remarkable amount of oil; 1 qt. per 200 miles. I tried changing the valve seals and intake gaskets, both of which were doing nothing to contain oil in the engine. No difference whatsoever. Must be the rings I figured.


So the next plan was to try to rebuild the engine. Or more accurately, have the engine rebuilt on a budget by a local builder. He assured me that I could get mine running like new for around $3000-$3500, but that would be a basically stock 440. The good news is that he had a dyno and he would break it in and dyno it for me for an additional fee. This was music to my ears as hearing all the horror stories about engine break-in terrified me.

Then, one day I was looking through Craigslist and found an ad for a "fresh" rebuilt 440 for sale nearby for $1800! Carb to pan! Wow, this is a miracle! When I went to look at it, the owner (for my purposes, I like to refer to him as the perpetrator) assured me that this was a 400hp drop-in-and-go affair. We struck a deal and loaded the beast into the back of my truck. I drove home giggling like a giddy school girl. Nice huh?




Since this is an attempted budget build, I will try to keep a running tally.

Spent so far $1800.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171634
02/04/12 11:17 AM
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The next few days were the beginning of my enlightenment. First, I found no matter how smart you think you are, you are never too old to be fooled by a good salesman. And every cliche along the lines of "If it sounds too good to be true..." came rushing to the surface and smacked me in the face. In other words, with some help from members on Moparts, DC.com and others, I quickly learned that this motor was, at best, a good rebuilt bottom end with heads taken directly from the scrap heap and installed in haste as to feign a run-ready motor. Most of the valve train and hardware was scrap also. I tried calling the perpetrator to ask why he sold me a bill of goods but he did not answer his phone (shocker). As I dug deeper though, it was apparent that the bottom end was put together with care and seemed to be done well. After speaking to some of my more knowledgeable buddys, it seemed that while I may have been duped, I could still sell some parts off the motor and end up with a pretty nice short block with all new parts for less than the machine work alone would have cost on the original engine. And I would still have my running engine in case anything went wrong.


Spent so far (after selling spare parts) $1400.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171635
02/04/12 11:19 AM
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It turned out the 906 heads were basically good for cores only.



There was way too much preload on the lifters because the valves were sunk way into the seats ("the heads have only one year on them" yeah right...). It probably wouldn't have even run the way it was.



There was a huge difference in the valve stem heights.



Good thing I took it apart. This big nut was sitting right there waiting to drop into the works and tear up my new motor.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171636
02/04/12 11:20 AM
02/04/12 11:20 AM
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I took the engine almost completely apart and checked clearances, bolt torques and basically checked it all over. Everything checked out good.


I decided to degree the cam and double check all the specs. I fabricated a piston stop out of aluminum angle and a lifter extension for the dial indicator out of an old brake line and washer.





Here's the specs...


This is what I came up with:
Int open - 1* BTDC = 2* retarded
Int close - 41* ABDC = ON SPEC

Exh open - 54* BBDC = 2* retarded
Exh close - 2* BTDC = ON SPEC

Lobe centerline - Int 109* ATDC = ON SPEC
Lobe centerline - Exh 120* BTDC = 1* advanced

I decided with some trusted advice that it was close enough for my purposes. Though the crank sprocket has provisions for 4 degree advance or retard. I may do some more research to see if advancing the cam will be a benefit.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171637
02/04/12 11:21 AM
02/04/12 11:21 AM
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The main issue with this engine build, as I would eventually understand it, is that he used flat top pistons on a stock deck height block. The problem is that the pistons are .085" in the hole (below deck) at TDC and therefore can not take advantage of quench (getting the top of the piston to within .040" of the head surface, which creates turbulence (good burn) and allows the use of pump gas in a high compression engine.


The other issue is the cam. It's a good low end torque grind, but the spec calls for a minimum of 9.5:1 compression. I gathered all the info regarding combustion chamber volume on different heads, 906/516/452, and ran them through the compression ratio calculator. The 906 heads that were on the motor have 79cc heads, which will get me in the ballpark, but they were in need of a complete rebuild which would cost $600-$700 locally. This was above the price range of new cast iron Aeroheads which are rebuilt castings, but with the bigger valves. So, might as well do that huh? Well, the price on those heads had since gone up and to get them to me would be close to $1000! About the same price as 440 Source aluminum Stealth heads.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171638
02/04/12 11:23 AM
02/04/12 11:23 AM
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So, after some soul searching, yes, I decided that the Stealth heads would give me the best bang for the buck. I had to get new head bolts also. The bill with shipping was about $1150. A little pricey for a budget build, but I figured that it wasn't too bad considering what I was getting.






They are actually pretty nice for the money. Stainless steel valves, Comp valve locks. 130 lb. springs. Perfect for my cam.

They are advertised as having 80cc chambers, so that would put me on the money with the compression ratio (9.6:1)I was looking for if I used the .020" steel shim head gaskets I have hanging on my wall. And because the gaskets came with the car, they're free! Life is good!

Spent so far - $2250.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171639
02/04/12 11:24 AM
02/04/12 11:24 AM
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Another innovative trick that was apparently left out of the engine building handbook is to use a shock washer in place of the correct cam bolt washer. I ordered the correct bolt & washer.

I'll say it again...good thing I took it apart



Spent so far $2448

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171640
02/04/12 11:26 AM
02/04/12 11:26 AM
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Unfortunately, after looking closely at the rockers, it was apparent they were also scrap. I mean, the holes that the shaft goes through aren't even round anymore lol! There was about 1/8" slop. Really bad.


Fortunately I was able to scare up a really nice set of used ones from my buddy...FREE!! I like that price! It adds nothing to the tally!


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171641
02/04/12 12:02 PM
02/04/12 12:02 PM
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Branson, Mo.
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Good luck with it, I'd tell you what i have into my 406 SBC but you might cry, & thats with a brand new set of Dart iron eagles & roller rockers .


75 Duster, 451 10.87 @ 123.58 NA 97 Z28 6sp., 12.01 @ 115 on a 100 shot 71 Swinger. 360 magnum. 12.58 @ 105 78 cutlass, 469 BBC. 12.70 @ 108 on street tires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2kqNmMfheU
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: joedust451] #1171642
02/04/12 12:15 PM
02/04/12 12:15 PM
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Quote:

Good luck with it, I'd tell you what i have into my 406 SBC but you might cry, & thats with a brand new set of Dart iron eagles & roller rockers .


I know, I was a Chevy guy for a long time. I'm quickly finding out that the words "buget" and "Mopar" can rarely be used in the same sentence...or zip code for that matter

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171643
02/04/12 12:27 PM
02/04/12 12:27 PM
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Marion,Indiana
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The holes in the rockers are not round from the factory.The originals were probably fine.The place to look for wear is in the pushrod cups and where the rocker contacts the bottom of the shaft.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: Seth_Jones] #1171644
02/06/12 09:04 PM
02/06/12 09:04 PM
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Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.


You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.


Scott

1969 Super Bee, 383/4 speed


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: StukaJU87] #1171645
02/06/12 09:21 PM
02/06/12 09:21 PM
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I got my headers in the other day. Hedman Shortys. They look pretty nice though I'll have to strip and paint them with hi-temp paint



I bolted them to the heads to check the spark plug clearance as I've seen so many that make access to the plugs a nightmare. For the exception of one, there seems to be plenty of room compared to others I've seen. I called Hedman and asked if dimpling the one tube for clearance will affect anything. He said as long as it's not like half collapsed, it will be fine.






This one I may have to clearance a bit.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: StukaJU87] #1171646
02/06/12 09:24 PM
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Quote:

Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.


You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.


Thanks. I sold those manifolds, but I've seen plenty in the ads here.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171647
02/06/12 10:17 PM
02/06/12 10:17 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.


You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.


Thanks. I sold those manifolds, but I've seen plenty in the ads here.


No problem. I have seen them in the classifieds, but not seeing them in person and shipping those things seems like a drag.


Scott

1969 Super Bee, 383/4 speed


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171648
02/07/12 10:25 PM
02/07/12 10:25 PM
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I mocked the head & header up to get a feel for how the left header will clear the steering box . They really do tuck under quite nicely.







At first I couldn't understand, being shortys, why they require a change to a mini starter, but now I see. It might be wise to get a heat shield.


Spent so far $2650

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171649
02/07/12 11:48 PM
02/07/12 11:48 PM
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Arizona
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Bob,

Can't wait to hear how the motor turns out with those heads and cam. Thinking of doing the same build. Don't feel too bad on getting duped, it has happens to us all at some point!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Carl


"It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar!" 1969 Charger R/T 440 1969 Road Runner 383 1970 Cuda 440
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 69rrgrabber] #1171650
02/08/12 12:36 AM
02/08/12 12:36 AM
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Quote:



Good luck and keep us posted!

Carl


I will, thanks!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171651
02/08/12 02:37 AM
02/08/12 02:37 AM
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I would like to see it with the trans and starter installed to see how close it really is!!!!
I think you are Fine on your plug clearance to the headers. I would leave them alone.
David

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: His and Her 69's] #1171652
02/08/12 07:25 AM
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Quote:

I would like to see it with the trans and starter installed to see how close it really is!!!!
I think you are Fine on your plug clearance to the headers. I would leave them alone.
David


I was going to dimple just the one. Maybe I'll just use a boot?

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171653
02/09/12 02:32 PM
02/09/12 02:32 PM
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I got the new Cometic .027" thick head gaskets. They are just 3 layers of very thin coated stainless gaskets riveted together. Hopefully they work well. They've gotten good reviews, so we'll see.



Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171654
02/12/12 10:01 PM
02/12/12 10:01 PM
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Cool thread Bob!


I have a 440 that's .030" over in my Jensen with the same deck height pistons- I cut my 902 heads .030" and have a 270H Comp cam, I love the way it runs!!

Keep the progress pics coming!


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #1171655
02/12/12 10:38 PM
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Thanks! More to come...

I was disassembling and checking the lifters and I found that some are different. The short one measures 1.850" and the tall one measures 1.90". As you can see, they are completely different looking from the side. I looked at the ones on Summit and they don't give a height spec, only diameter (.904"). I measured the plunger height and they are exactly the same measurement from the base of the lifter to where the push rod sits. The oil hole height is .050" different, but since it goes up and down in the bore, it shouldn't matter. The tall one is stamped "Johnson HT 2011" which I found on Summit and application is for this (and many other) motors and are sold separately. Maybe he was missing a few and just got replacements.

In any case, I think I'll order new ones to be safe. I really don't like the looks of the Johnson ones. They look very crude overall...




Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171656
02/13/12 02:57 PM
02/13/12 02:57 PM
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After all the bad stuff I am finding with this motor, I decided to check all the main & rod bearing clearances with plastigage. It isn't as accurate as a micrometer/bore gauge, but it's supposedly within .0005", so that's close enough to get an idea of how it was put together.

This is what I came up with:

Mains
.0020
.0019
.0017
.0019
.0018

Rods
.0017
.0018
.0020
.0020
.0018
.0021
.0020

It's a little difficult to get an exact (to the ten-thousandths) reading because the lines on the paper aren't broken down that far, so it's really a best guess. I did it with the red and green and the red tended to read the same or a little higher than the green. For instance, I did one with the green and it read .0016. I double checked it with the red and it read .0020. So, who knows which is accurate.

These are a little tight compared to what I have read is optimal (.0025-.0027) but I understand that the plastigage tends to read a little on the low side compared to a micrometer/bore gauge. I called Clevite tech and he said it's well within the spec window. For the 440, he showed a huge acceptable range, for example, one I remember is for the mains which was .0008-.0030!

So, this is good news and I can move on to the valve train.


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171657
02/16/12 11:43 AM
02/16/12 11:43 AM
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I sandblasted then painted the headers. Hopefully they will hold up.





...and installed the new rear main seal...


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171658
02/19/12 11:16 PM
02/19/12 11:16 PM
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I bought a new Std volume oil pump from Autozone. I went to install it today and there was no gasket or o-ring. And, of course there wasn't one in the gasket kit!! It turns out that no-one includes this in the gasket kits. Why??? Makes no sense!




Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171659
02/19/12 11:16 PM
02/19/12 11:16 PM
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I scored a nice 402 oil pan from ebay. Really nice shape with a perfect original pickup tube and windage tray.




I installed the pickup in the motor and adjusted it so it just touches the bottom of the pan as the FSM calls for.


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171660
02/19/12 11:26 PM
02/19/12 11:26 PM
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I installed the new rear main seal using this set up from the FelPro gasket kit for the side seals. It consists of two pipe cleaners that you are supposed to dip in water. First, you fill the side cavities of the retainer with silicone, then push the wet pipe cleaners into the slot. It's supposed to cure the silicone since it requires moisture (never knew this). The first time I installed this, I just filled the cavities with silicone and nothing else. A week later, it was still as wet as the day I did it. So, maybe they know what they're talking about? I hope so, I don't want to pull it apart again...especially when it's in the car...




Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171661
02/20/12 01:17 AM
02/20/12 01:17 AM
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His and Her 69's Offline
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That oil pan Looks too Clean like it might have been glass beaded.
Look in the seams of the baffles and MAKE SURE all the sand in out.
That is a Good way to shorten the life of a new motor. We tape the seams off REALLY GOOD before we bead them but we have seen A LOT of pans people don't and that sand will eventually come out and it doesn't break down. It Looks Nice though. Just an FYI for you to look at before it's on the motor and too late. David

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: His and Her 69's] #1171662
02/20/12 08:28 AM
02/20/12 08:28 AM
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Quote:

That oil pan Looks too Clean like it might have been glass beaded.
Look in the seams of the baffles and MAKE SURE all the sand in out.
That is a Good way to shorten the life of a new motor. We tape the seams off REALLY GOOD before we bead them but we have seen A LOT of pans people don't and that sand will eventually come out and it doesn't break down. It Looks Nice though. Just an FYI for you to look at before it's on the motor and too late. David


Ah ha! Good thought. It definitely was sand or media blasted. I never thought of the residual sand. Good catch! I'll check it today. Thank you!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171663
02/28/12 01:05 AM
02/28/12 01:05 AM
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Well, I spent most of the day today trying to figure out what length push rods I need. What a tedious and time consuming job.

With the rocker shafts all torqued down, I ended up with .113" preload on the lifters with the stock 9.31" pushrods, which is way too much. It should be between .020-.060". I don't know why it's so far off. The Stealth heads are supposed to be stock dimensions and the deck has not been cut. I measured two different ways to double check myself but it always comes out the same. I am using thinner than normal (.027") head gaskets, but that only accounts for .013" or so.

I'll be on the phone with Smith Bros. tomorrow to order up some custom length rods. 9.23" long should get me around .033" preload. The next build will have adjustable rocker arms. Much less hassle.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171664
02/28/12 02:14 AM
02/28/12 02:14 AM
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Quote:

I bought a new Std volume oil pump from Autozone. I went to install it today and there was no gasket or o-ring. And, of course there wasn't one in the gasket kit!! It turns out that no-one includes this in the gasket kits. Why??? Makes no sense!





An engine builder friend of mine ran into this same problem so I made a stack of 50 or so of them. That should last him a year, I hope!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 71ChallengerSE] #1171665
02/28/12 01:18 PM
02/28/12 01:18 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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After speaking to Comp tech, it was decided that .045 preload would be better. Should have the pushrods in a week or so.


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171666
03/14/12 10:15 PM
03/14/12 10:15 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Well, I got the custom pushrods from Smith Bros and they look nice. I put it all together and the preload was still a little too much but not bad. It ranged from .053-.075". Comp calls for .040-.060". They said I can use some shims under the rocker shafts, so I ordered some .015" ones from Mancini to get me right in the ballpark. They came in today, so I decided to put it together tonight. I was just going to slap it together without going through the measurement process, but I figured I'd better just in case. Good thing I did. Now it has zero preload! I don't get it. I carefully measured for the pushrod length and it was still too much, and now the .015 shims somehow negates over .050" preload? So I took them out and measured again and now they are in spec...all the ones I measured were around .053" so screw it, I put it together. Done. I used exactly the same procedure to measure, but somehow it's inconsistent.

The Mopar rocker shaft setup is generally a good design, but with non-adjustable rocker arms, it's a major pita! The stock Chevy design is much better IMO. Turn the nut to zero lash, crank 3/4 turn down and go on with your life.




I learned this trick from my buddy. Put a piece of coat hanger across the head to hold the pushrods in place until you get the rocker arms installed.


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171667
03/14/12 10:16 PM
03/14/12 10:16 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I was warned that there may be a pushrod clearance issue around the intake ports with the Stealth heads, but mine were a-ok.




Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171668
03/18/12 09:27 AM
03/18/12 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325
Truckville, the capital of NY
85_Ram_4speed Offline
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Its getting there Bob.

BTW, all the work on the stock 906 heads cost about $650 plus the cost of springs and special spring shims I had to find, so almost $800 total.
They were a mess for sure.

--Chad


Outcast Dodge guy.
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 85_Ram_4speed] #1171669
03/18/12 11:50 PM
03/18/12 11:50 PM
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Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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How did the 906 heads come out? Did you do any more port or chamber work to them?

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171670
03/30/12 06:26 AM
03/30/12 06:26 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Ok, time for a little update. I have the car up in the air and the motor ready to pull out. I just have to unbolt the engine and trans mounts and she's outta there.



Since there was no safe place to store the hood in the garage, the wife let me use the pool table as a temporary prop. lol.


I drilled some holes in the windage tray to help the oil drain back better and installed the oil pan.



Also installed the timing cover, oil pump & water pump. It's just about ready to paint now. I just have to prime the aluminum heads with self etching primer. I'm going to be a little different and use Chrysler red. You can see the shade on the water pump, which I painted before I installed it.

What do you think of my new valve covers? Just the right amount of tackiness with that GOT-EM-FOR-A-BUCK-AT-A-YARD-SALE look, don't you think?


LOL! KIDDING! I got those with the car. I'm going to use them to cover the valve train while painting.
Nasty!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171671
03/30/12 05:50 PM
03/30/12 05:50 PM

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I was going to say you just ruined the the whole motor.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: ] #1171672
04/02/12 01:05 PM
04/02/12 01:05 PM
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Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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Out in Left Field, NY
The amazing thing is that at one time, someone actually paid money for those and thought they were cool

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171673
04/02/12 08:34 PM
04/02/12 08:34 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Out in Left Field, NY
I had the day off today, so I took advantage of the time and pulled the engine out. My buddy came to help. We were able to take the engine & trans all in one shot pretty easily, which is the way I prefer to do it. I used one of those load levelers and it worked ok, but it was a bear to turn the handle when the load was on it.





Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171674
04/02/12 08:35 PM
04/02/12 08:35 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Out in Left Field, NY
I plan to replace the clutch and was hoping to be able to resurface the flywheel, but I found a crack, so I think a new one is in my future. Bummer.


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171675
04/03/12 01:45 AM
04/03/12 01:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,559
Oh
H
His and Her 69's Offline
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Oh
You might check with a machine shop but I know they turn and use flywheels that have heat cracks in them all the time.
Yours doesn't look to bad to me but then again I have never owned a 4 spd car before. I have seen pulling tractors with turbo motors run ones that have a LOT more cracks in them then yours.
The flywheels are pretty thick.
Just my 2 cents. David

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: His and Her 69's] #1171676
04/07/12 07:53 PM
04/07/12 07:53 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Out in Left Field, NY
I took a chance and brought the flywheel to have resurfaced to see what happened. It came out perfect, and he didn't have to take that much off. Thanks for your help!

Today I also installed the harmonic balancer, fuel pump and primed the oil pump. I got about 50lbs at the gauge (it was still going up but my drill was smoking, so I stopped), so I'm happy. Next, I need to install the intake, flywheel & clutch.

So far, so good

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171677
04/08/12 07:48 PM
04/08/12 07:48 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Today I installed the intake. There's a lot of red, but I think once I get all the accessories installed, it should tone it down a bit.




Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171678
04/09/12 02:37 AM
04/09/12 02:37 AM
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Washington
19cuda73 Offline
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Nice looking Car and the new motor looks sweet. Im looking forward to seeing more on the reinstall. Cant wait to tear into mine just parked it for now while I put the finishing touches on the Cuda.


1966 Charger 383 4 speed (Black with Red interior)
1973 Cuda 340 4 speed (Lemontwist)
1972 Corvette
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 19cuda73] #1171679
04/12/12 10:45 AM
04/12/12 10:45 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Thanks! Keep us posted on your project when you begin.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171680
04/16/12 01:00 AM
04/16/12 01:00 AM
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Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
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That looks great. What brand is that cool intake ? Ron

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 383man] #1171681
04/16/12 09:56 AM
04/16/12 09:56 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Out in Left Field, NY
Quote:

That looks great. What brand is that cool intake ? Ron


Thanks! It's an Offenhauser.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171682
04/19/12 10:02 PM
04/19/12 10:02 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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My car was converted at some point from a 318/auto to a 440/4speed. When they did it, they decided to bolt the z-bar mount to the inner fender well instead of welding in the proper bracket. As a result, the clutch didn't work properly and eventually the mount broke. I figured there's no better time to do it than now while the engine is out.

I had the wire speed too fast on the welder at first so it was too cold. I had it set better for the second half. Not my prettiest welding job but it will hold up.




Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171683
04/19/12 10:04 PM
04/19/12 10:04 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I also received the new Centerforce clutch. This should work much better than the stock-type unit. I'm just waiting for the trans to be rebuilt and the throwout bearing to arrive.


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171684
04/19/12 10:22 PM
04/19/12 10:22 PM
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Posts: 1,300
Washington
19cuda73 Offline
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Great Job! Nice work! You'll love that Centerforce. It is the best choice!!!


1966 Charger 383 4 speed (Black with Red interior)
1973 Cuda 340 4 speed (Lemontwist)
1972 Corvette
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 19cuda73] #1171685
04/20/12 06:45 AM
04/20/12 06:45 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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Out in Left Field, NY
Thanks. I had a Centerforce in a 'Vette I had years ago and it worked well.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171686
04/30/12 12:54 PM
04/30/12 12:54 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Well, I finally got the engine compartment cleaned up and the new steering box installed. Ready to receive the new engine.



Yesterday I was also able to get the clutch, transmission, headers & starter installed, so she's ready to drop in tomorrow. My buddy is coming over to help. hopefully, it will go smoothly.





The starter fits very well and there seems to be plenty of room for the exhaust. Hopefully, it will clear the steering box.



Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171687
05/01/12 04:17 AM
05/01/12 04:17 AM
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Oh
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His and Her 69's Offline
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Looking Good Now!! I bet you can't wait to get it in and running.
Congrat's on your project and I Hope the installation goes WELL.
Those shorty headers look like they have a Good fit to them.
David

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: His and Her 69's] #1171688
05/01/12 07:28 PM
05/01/12 07:28 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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Thanks!

We got the engine installed today. It took a little longer than I had hoped because one of the motor mounts was giving us trouble and there was a clearance issue with the driver's side header to the steering box and steering column.






It wasn't actually touching, but it was so close that I felt it necessary to dimple the header in those places. Now there's plenty of clearance.




The Z-bar bracket I welded in was perfectly placed and the Z-bar lined up great. Big relief! The clutch adjusted very easily and is real easy to push. Gotta love the Centerforce!


Plenty of room on the passenger's side to get to the plugs, etc.


Sitting pretty. can't wait to get it started. I need to hook up the exhaust and all the accessories next.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171689
05/01/12 10:57 PM
05/01/12 10:57 PM

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I've had engines built for me but by far the most rewarding experience has been building a couple of mild 440's myself.

It's like giving birth for us males!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) #1171690
05/02/12 01:13 PM
05/02/12 01:13 PM
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Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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Quote:



It's like giving birth for us males!


I hope wihout the excruciating pain though!

Last edited by bobs66440; 05/02/12 02:38 PM.
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171691
05/02/12 03:34 PM
05/02/12 03:34 PM
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California
mickm Offline
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it may just be the picture, but it really looks like there is a hole in the header where you massaged it for the power steering pump?

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: mickm] #1171692
05/02/12 04:06 PM
05/02/12 04:06 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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Quote:

it may just be the picture, but it really looks like there is a hole in the header where you massaged it for the power steering pump?


You're right, it does but that's just a tack weld where the id plate was welded. I had to remove it to heat the area to dimple it. I was just lazy and didn't grind them off ;-). Thanks.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171693
05/02/12 08:03 PM
05/02/12 08:03 PM
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NotRussia
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2fast4yourBrain Offline
Whack top Dodger
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Nice work, although I prefer using studs for the valve covers when working with aluminum heads.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 2fast4yourBrain] #1171694
05/02/12 09:30 PM
05/02/12 09:30 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Out in Left Field, NY
Quote:

Nice work, although I prefer using studs for the valve covers when working with aluminum heads.


Thanks. I am using studs. The T-handles thread onto them.

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: bobs66440] #1171695
05/07/12 08:44 PM
05/07/12 08:44 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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The cam break in went perfectly! It started right up after cranking a few times and immediately ran it up to 1800-2200rpm and kept it there, varying it up and down for about 30 minutes (that was a LONG 30 minutes!). I was shocked how smooth it ran immediately and didn't skip a beat the whole time. I set the total timing at about 34* and initial is 10-12*. I ran it with straight water and no thermostat. I also had a box fan blowing into the grill. The temp stayed very cool for about the first 15 minutes, then it slowly creeped up to 195, almost 200. At that point I misted the rad with a garden hose and that brought it right down. The oil pressure stayed at 50 cold and 45 hot.

I let it cool, pulled all the spark plugs and they looked real good. Then changed the oil and filter, double checked everything and ran it a little more...idle, mid-range, blipping. It seems very responsive and sounds great out of the exhaust.

The amazing thing is that there are NO leaks at all! Even the valve covers were dry! Amazing!

The cam sounds a bit choppy but not real radical. I can't wait to road test it. I have to drain the water and add coolant & thermostat, connect the drive shaft, tighten the steering linkage and steering column, install power steering pump and get all the plug wires & hoses routed neatly. Also install the shifter.

Bummer is it's supposed to rain the next few days, so I may have to wait.

Thanks everyone for your help!!!



The mechanical auxiliary gauges I had tie wrapped to the antenna lol.





Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: bobs66440] #1171696
05/07/12 09:34 PM
05/07/12 09:34 PM
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Posts: 1,445
Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
daniel_depetro Offline
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Awesome thread!


1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10)

1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)

1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: daniel_depetro] #1171697
05/08/12 02:22 AM
05/08/12 02:22 AM
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Oh
H
His and Her 69's Offline
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Oh
CONGRAT'S on the fire up and cam break in.
Now Finish it up so when the weather breaks you can go burn some rubber for us.
David

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: daniel_depetro] #1171698
05/08/12 02:26 AM
05/08/12 02:26 AM
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Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline
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Quote:

Awesome thread!






Looks gorgeous Bob!!


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #1171699
05/08/12 10:08 PM
05/08/12 10:08 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Thanks. I am really impressed with those headers. Access to the plugs is extremely easy and all can be removed from the top side.

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: bobs66440] #1171700
05/09/12 08:46 PM
05/09/12 08:46 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I took the car out for the first test drive today. It ran perfect! I drove it for about a half hour and it stayed cool the whole time, around 180-185. Oil pressure was good also. No bad noises or leaks. The clutch worked very well, but grabs very high in the pedal travel. I think that's normal for a Centerforce. I seem to remember that in my Vette.

The only issues I have are the shifter (Hurst Comp Plus) and the alternator belt squealing. It took about 2 hours of cursing and swearing to get the stupid shifter to shift smoothly. I thought I had it, then during the drive, I slowly lost the ability to shift to 1st, 3rd and reverse. I'm not sure if the shifter is bad (it's fairly new, but never really worked well) or the linkage is screwed up or what. I have new bushings in there so I know that's not it. I think the rectangular holes in the arms that bolt to the trans are worn and loosen up and move around. All I know is it's infuriating! I want my automatic back! Screw this 4 speed crap!

Also, I have been chasing this nasty alternator belt squeal ever since I got the car. I put new belts on, tightened them properly, used belt dressing, scuffed up the pulley, checked alignment and where the belt rides in the pulley...nothing works. It just squeals like mad above 2500 rpm no matter what I do. The belt dressing quiets it down between 2500-3000rpm for a bit, but then just comes right back after a few minutes. Very annoying. Next step is to replace the alternator.

Also, I really don't like the way the new steering box feels. It's a little vague, especially turning right just off center. And the steering wheel is not centered any more, so I have to adjust the tie rods.

Other than that, all in all, I would say it was a success (so far).

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: bobs66440] #1171701
05/09/12 09:08 PM
05/09/12 09:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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RUNCHARGER Offline
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With the car running put a long 3/4" extension against the alternator, WP and PS pump and have a listen, that should tell you if you have a bearing in one of those components failing.
If the nuts holding the shifter tabs loosen off, I tighten them fairly well and loctite them. Make sure you don't tighten the shifter box bolts too tight and bind up the mechanism.

Sheldon

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1171702
05/15/12 03:38 PM
05/15/12 03:38 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I went to Autozone to get a new alternator over the weekend. While I was there, I drove the poor kid behind the counter crazy looking at all kinds of belts. I found one slightly narrower than the one I had and installed it with the old alternator. The squealing seems to be fixed. I ran it for quite a while with no noise. Hopefully it will stay that way. We'll see...

Also, The new shifter arrived from Brewers today. I installed it and it works perfectly! What a relief! Unfortunately it's raining now, so I can't take it for a ride....maybe tomorrow.

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: bobs66440] #1171703
05/19/12 09:09 AM
05/19/12 09:09 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I took the Charger to it's first cruise-in of the season last night. It ran perfectly, no issues at all and was greeted with much enthusiasm. I'm very happy so far with the result.

Surprisingly, the exhaust is much louder now. It really barks at certain rpm under load. Must be the difference with the headers from the manifolds. I LIKE it!

As I am putting more miles on it, I'm pushing it a little more here and there. It seems to have pretty good power all through the rpm range but comes on well at about 2200 and pulls steady. I haven't had it much above 3500rpm. It's definitely breathing better than the other engine and responds well to the secondary carb opening.

New clutch and shifter make it a pleasure to drive now.

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: bobs66440] #1171704
05/19/12 12:25 PM
05/19/12 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
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RUNCHARGER Offline
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RUNCHARGER  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,976
Chilliwack B.C. Canada
Nice: I usually can't stop myself from pulling them to redline within the first 20 miles, I haven't hurt one yet.

Sheldon

Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!! [Re: RUNCHARGER] #1171705
09/15/12 09:23 AM
09/15/12 09:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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bobs66440  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
Forgot to mention, the total cost including the headers was $3200. Not exactly a budget build, but not terrible.

As a side note, I have about 1200 miles on it so far and it's running perfect.

(knock on wood)

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171706
09/15/12 09:29 PM
09/15/12 09:29 PM

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Anonymous
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Sweet!

Mine runs flawlessly as well but need exhaust and a windshield to really try it out.

Great satisfaction in doing it yourself!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) #1171707
09/16/12 05:25 PM
09/16/12 05:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
You bet!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171708
03/03/13 03:54 PM
03/03/13 03:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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bobs66440 Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
A little update. I put about 2000 miles on the engine, then had a (Comp) lifter bleeding down. Sooo, It's been off the road for the last 4 months while I rebuilt it. I had to change the cam (another Summit 6401) and switched to Johnson SEC lifters. I also had to have new push rods made. We broke it in yesterday. All went well fortunately, so it looks like we're back in business. What a hassle, over one bad lifter...

I made a video of it running...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sENN5TdGLI&feature=youtu.be


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