My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
#1171633
02/04/12 11:15 AM
02/04/12 11:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Well, hopefully it will be a budget build. I'm completely new to this (engine building) as well as Mopars in general and kind of stumbling my way through with help from members from Moparts as well as others. I've decided to document all the ups and downs and ins n' outs of my first engine build so those of you thinking about doing this may avoid the mistakes I have, and will, make. The goal is to end up with a decent, inexpensive, reliable street motor and slowly rebuild the engine that's in the car now the way I want it. A street beast. Current engine While the current 440 (stock '66 from an imperial or similar) runs ok (albeit very tired) it uses a remarkable amount of oil; 1 qt. per 200 miles. I tried changing the valve seals and intake gaskets, both of which were doing nothing to contain oil in the engine. No difference whatsoever. Must be the rings I figured. So the next plan was to try to rebuild the engine. Or more accurately, have the engine rebuilt on a budget by a local builder. He assured me that I could get mine running like new for around $3000-$3500, but that would be a basically stock 440. The good news is that he had a dyno and he would break it in and dyno it for me for an additional fee. This was music to my ears as hearing all the horror stories about engine break-in terrified me. Then, one day I was looking through Craigslist and found an ad for a "fresh" rebuilt 440 for sale nearby for $1800! Carb to pan! Wow, this is a miracle! When I went to look at it, the owner (for my purposes, I like to refer to him as the perpetrator) assured me that this was a 400hp drop-in-and-go affair. We struck a deal and loaded the beast into the back of my truck. I drove home giggling like a giddy school girl. Nice huh? Since this is an attempted budget build, I will try to keep a running tally. Spent so far $1800.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171634
02/04/12 11:17 AM
02/04/12 11:17 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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The next few days were the beginning of my enlightenment. First, I found no matter how smart you think you are, you are never too old to be fooled by a good salesman. And every cliche along the lines of "If it sounds too good to be true..." came rushing to the surface and smacked me in the face. In other words, with some help from members on Moparts, DC.com and others, I quickly learned that this motor was, at best, a good rebuilt bottom end with heads taken directly from the scrap heap and installed in haste as to feign a run-ready motor. Most of the valve train and hardware was scrap also. I tried calling the perpetrator to ask why he sold me a bill of goods but he did not answer his phone (shocker). As I dug deeper though, it was apparent that the bottom end was put together with care and seemed to be done well. After speaking to some of my more knowledgeable buddys, it seemed that while I may have been duped, I could still sell some parts off the motor and end up with a pretty nice short block with all new parts for less than the machine work alone would have cost on the original engine. And I would still have my running engine in case anything went wrong.
Spent so far (after selling spare parts) $1400.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171636
02/04/12 11:20 AM
02/04/12 11:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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I took the engine almost completely apart and checked clearances, bolt torques and basically checked it all over. Everything checked out good. I decided to degree the cam and double check all the specs. I fabricated a piston stop out of aluminum angle and a lifter extension for the dial indicator out of an old brake line and washer. Here's the specs... This is what I came up with: Int open - 1* BTDC = 2* retarded Int close - 41* ABDC = ON SPEC Exh open - 54* BBDC = 2* retarded Exh close - 2* BTDC = ON SPEC Lobe centerline - Int 109* ATDC = ON SPEC Lobe centerline - Exh 120* BTDC = 1* advanced I decided with some trusted advice that it was close enough for my purposes. Though the crank sprocket has provisions for 4 degree advance or retard. I may do some more research to see if advancing the cam will be a benefit.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171637
02/04/12 11:21 AM
02/04/12 11:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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The main issue with this engine build, as I would eventually understand it, is that he used flat top pistons on a stock deck height block. The problem is that the pistons are .085" in the hole (below deck) at TDC and therefore can not take advantage of quench (getting the top of the piston to within .040" of the head surface, which creates turbulence (good burn) and allows the use of pump gas in a high compression engine. The other issue is the cam. It's a good low end torque grind, but the spec calls for a minimum of 9.5:1 compression. I gathered all the info regarding combustion chamber volume on different heads, 906/516/452, and ran them through the compression ratio calculator. The 906 heads that were on the motor have 79cc heads, which will get me in the ballpark, but they were in need of a complete rebuild which would cost $600-$700 locally. This was above the price range of new cast iron Aeroheads which are rebuilt castings, but with the bigger valves. So, might as well do that huh? Well, the price on those heads had since gone up and to get them to me would be close to $1000! About the same price as 440 Source aluminum Stealth heads.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171638
02/04/12 11:23 AM
02/04/12 11:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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So, after some soul searching, yes, I decided that the Stealth heads would give me the best bang for the buck. I had to get new head bolts also. The bill with shipping was about $1150. A little pricey for a budget build, but I figured that it wasn't too bad considering what I was getting. They are actually pretty nice for the money. Stainless steel valves, Comp valve locks. 130 lb. springs. Perfect for my cam. They are advertised as having 80cc chambers, so that would put me on the money with the compression ratio (9.6:1)I was looking for if I used the .020" steel shim head gaskets I have hanging on my wall. And because the gaskets came with the car, they're free! Life is good! Spent so far - $2250.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: joedust451]
#1171642
02/04/12 12:15 PM
02/04/12 12:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
Good luck with it, I'd tell you what i have into my 406 SBC but you might cry, & thats with a brand new set of Dart iron eagles & roller rockers .
I know, I was a Chevy guy for a long time. I'm quickly finding out that the words "buget" and "Mopar" can rarely be used in the same sentence...or zip code for that matter
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: Seth_Jones]
#1171644
02/06/12 09:04 PM
02/06/12 09:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,806 Northern NJ
StukaJU87
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Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.
You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.
Scott
1969 Super Bee, 383/4 speed
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: StukaJU87]
#1171646
02/06/12 09:24 PM
02/06/12 09:24 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.
You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.
Thanks. I sold those manifolds, but I've seen plenty in the ads here.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171649
02/07/12 11:48 PM
02/07/12 11:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 352 Arizona
69rrgrabber
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Arizona
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Bob, Can't wait to hear how the motor turns out with those heads and cam. Thinking of doing the same build. Don't feel too bad on getting duped, it has happens to us all at some point! Good luck and keep us posted! Carl
"It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar!"
1969 Charger R/T 440
1969 Road Runner 383
1970 Cuda 440
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: His and Her 69's]
#1171652
02/08/12 07:25 AM
02/08/12 07:25 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
I would like to see it with the trans and starter installed to see how close it really is!!!! I think you are Fine on your plug clearance to the headers. I would leave them alone. David
I was going to dimple just the one. Maybe I'll just use a boot?
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171654
02/12/12 10:01 PM
02/12/12 10:01 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,478 Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,478
Canada
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Cool thread Bob! I have a 440 that's .030" over in my Jensen with the same deck height pistons- I cut my 902 heads .030" and have a 270H Comp cam, I love the way it runs!! Keep the progress pics coming!
CrAzYMoPaRGuY
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171656
02/13/12 02:57 PM
02/13/12 02:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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After all the bad stuff I am finding with this motor, I decided to check all the main & rod bearing clearances with plastigage. It isn't as accurate as a micrometer/bore gauge, but it's supposedly within .0005", so that's close enough to get an idea of how it was put together. This is what I came up with: Mains .0020 .0019 .0017 .0019 .0018 Rods .0017 .0018 .0020 .0020 .0018 .0021 .0020 It's a little difficult to get an exact (to the ten-thousandths) reading because the lines on the paper aren't broken down that far, so it's really a best guess. I did it with the red and green and the red tended to read the same or a little higher than the green. For instance, I did one with the green and it read .0016. I double checked it with the red and it read .0020. So, who knows which is accurate. These are a little tight compared to what I have read is optimal (.0025-.0027) but I understand that the plastigage tends to read a little on the low side compared to a micrometer/bore gauge. I called Clevite tech and he said it's well within the spec window. For the 440, he showed a huge acceptable range, for example, one I remember is for the mains which was .0008-.0030! So, this is good news and I can move on to the valve train.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: His and Her 69's]
#1171662
02/20/12 08:28 AM
02/20/12 08:28 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
That oil pan Looks too Clean like it might have been glass beaded. Look in the seams of the baffles and MAKE SURE all the sand in out. That is a Good way to shorten the life of a new motor. We tape the seams off REALLY GOOD before we bead them but we have seen A LOT of pans people don't and that sand will eventually come out and it doesn't break down. It Looks Nice though. Just an FYI for you to look at before it's on the motor and too late. David
Ah ha! Good thought. It definitely was sand or media blasted. I never thought of the residual sand. Good catch! I'll check it today. Thank you!
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171664
02/28/12 02:14 AM
02/28/12 02:14 AM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 36 Virginia Beach, VA
71ChallengerSE
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Quote:
I bought a new Std volume oil pump from Autozone. I went to install it today and there was no gasket or o-ring. And, of course there wasn't one in the gasket kit!! It turns out that no-one includes this in the gasket kits. Why??? Makes no sense!
An engine builder friend of mine ran into this same problem so I made a stack of 50 or so of them. That should last him a year, I hope!
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171666
03/14/12 10:15 PM
03/14/12 10:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Well, I got the custom pushrods from Smith Bros and they look nice. I put it all together and the preload was still a little too much but not bad. It ranged from .053-.075". Comp calls for .040-.060". They said I can use some shims under the rocker shafts, so I ordered some .015" ones from Mancini to get me right in the ballpark. They came in today, so I decided to put it together tonight. I was just going to slap it together without going through the measurement process, but I figured I'd better just in case. Good thing I did. Now it has zero preload! I don't get it. I carefully measured for the pushrod length and it was still too much, and now the .015 shims somehow negates over .050" preload? So I took them out and measured again and now they are in spec...all the ones I measured were around .053" so screw it, I put it together. Done. I used exactly the same procedure to measure, but somehow it's inconsistent. The Mopar rocker shaft setup is generally a good design, but with non-adjustable rocker arms, it's a major pita! The stock Chevy design is much better IMO. Turn the nut to zero lash, crank 3/4 turn down and go on with your life. I learned this trick from my buddy. Put a piece of coat hanger across the head to hold the pushrods in place until you get the rocker arms installed.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171668
03/18/12 09:27 AM
03/18/12 09:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325 Truckville, the capital of NY
85_Ram_4speed
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Truckville, the capital of NY
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Its getting there Bob.
BTW, all the work on the stock 906 heads cost about $650 plus the cost of springs and special spring shims I had to find, so almost $800 total. They were a mess for sure.
--Chad
Outcast Dodge guy.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171670
03/30/12 06:26 AM
03/30/12 06:26 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Ok, time for a little update. I have the car up in the air and the motor ready to pull out. I just have to unbolt the engine and trans mounts and she's outta there. Since there was no safe place to store the hood in the garage, the wife let me use the pool table as a temporary prop. lol. I drilled some holes in the windage tray to help the oil drain back better and installed the oil pan. Also installed the timing cover, oil pump & water pump. It's just about ready to paint now. I just have to prime the aluminum heads with self etching primer. I'm going to be a little different and use Chrysler red. You can see the shade on the water pump, which I painted before I installed it. What do you think of my new valve covers? Just the right amount of tackiness with that GOT-EM-FOR-A-BUCK-AT-A-YARD-SALE look, don't you think? LOL! KIDDING! I got those with the car. I'm going to use them to cover the valve train while painting. Nasty!
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171671
03/30/12 05:50 PM
03/30/12 05:50 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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I was going to say you just ruined the the whole motor.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: His and Her 69's]
#1171676
04/07/12 07:53 PM
04/07/12 07:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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I took a chance and brought the flywheel to have resurfaced to see what happened. It came out perfect, and he didn't have to take that much off. Thanks for your help! Today I also installed the harmonic balancer, fuel pump and primed the oil pump. I got about 50lbs at the gauge (it was still going up but my drill was smoking, so I stopped), so I'm happy. Next, I need to install the intake, flywheel & clutch. So far, so good
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171684
04/19/12 10:22 PM
04/19/12 10:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,300 Washington
19cuda73
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,300
Washington
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Great Job! Nice work! You'll love that Centerforce. It is the best choice!!!
1966 Charger 383 4 speed (Black with Red interior) 1973 Cuda 340 4 speed (Lemontwist) 1972 Corvette
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171689
05/01/12 10:57 PM
05/01/12 10:57 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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I've had engines built for me but by far the most rewarding experience has been building a couple of mild 440's myself. It's like giving birth for us males!
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: mickm]
#1171692
05/02/12 04:06 PM
05/02/12 04:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
it may just be the picture, but it really looks like there is a hole in the header where you massaged it for the power steering pump?
You're right, it does but that's just a tack weld where the id plate was welded. I had to remove it to heat the area to dimple it. I was just lazy and didn't grind them off ;-). Thanks.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: 2fast4yourBrain]
#1171694
05/02/12 09:30 PM
05/02/12 09:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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Quote:
Nice work, although I prefer using studs for the valve covers when working with aluminum heads.
Thanks. I am using studs. The T-handles thread onto them.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!!
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171695
05/07/12 08:44 PM
05/07/12 08:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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The cam break in went perfectly! It started right up after cranking a few times and immediately ran it up to 1800-2200rpm and kept it there, varying it up and down for about 30 minutes (that was a LONG 30 minutes!). I was shocked how smooth it ran immediately and didn't skip a beat the whole time. I set the total timing at about 34* and initial is 10-12*. I ran it with straight water and no thermostat. I also had a box fan blowing into the grill. The temp stayed very cool for about the first 15 minutes, then it slowly creeped up to 195, almost 200. At that point I misted the rad with a garden hose and that brought it right down. The oil pressure stayed at 50 cold and 45 hot. I let it cool, pulled all the spark plugs and they looked real good. Then changed the oil and filter, double checked everything and ran it a little more...idle, mid-range, blipping. It seems very responsive and sounds great out of the exhaust. The amazing thing is that there are NO leaks at all! Even the valve covers were dry! Amazing! The cam sounds a bit choppy but not real radical. I can't wait to road test it. I have to drain the water and add coolant & thermostat, connect the drive shaft, tighten the steering linkage and steering column, install power steering pump and get all the plug wires & hoses routed neatly. Also install the shifter. Bummer is it's supposed to rain the next few days, so I may have to wait. Thanks everyone for your help!!! The mechanical auxiliary gauges I had tie wrapped to the antenna lol.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!!
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171696
05/07/12 09:34 PM
05/07/12 09:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,445 Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
daniel_depetro
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,445
Sterling Heights, Michigan 483...
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Awesome thread!
1969 Dodge Super Bee A12 (440 Six Pack, 4-speed, Dana 60 4.10)
1972 Plymouth Road Runner (400, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
1974 Plymouth Duster 360 (360, 4-speed, 8.75" 3.23)
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Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!!
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171700
05/09/12 08:46 PM
05/09/12 08:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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I took the car out for the first test drive today. It ran perfect! I drove it for about a half hour and it stayed cool the whole time, around 180-185. Oil pressure was good also. No bad noises or leaks. The clutch worked very well, but grabs very high in the pedal travel. I think that's normal for a Centerforce. I seem to remember that in my Vette. The only issues I have are the shifter (Hurst Comp Plus) and the alternator belt squealing. It took about 2 hours of cursing and swearing to get the stupid shifter to shift smoothly. I thought I had it, then during the drive, I slowly lost the ability to shift to 1st, 3rd and reverse. I'm not sure if the shifter is bad (it's fairly new, but never really worked well) or the linkage is screwed up or what. I have new bushings in there so I know that's not it. I think the rectangular holes in the arms that bolt to the trans are worn and loosen up and move around. All I know is it's infuriating! I want my automatic back! Screw this 4 speed crap! Also, I have been chasing this nasty alternator belt squeal ever since I got the car. I put new belts on, tightened them properly, used belt dressing, scuffed up the pulley, checked alignment and where the belt rides in the pulley...nothing works. It just squeals like mad above 2500 rpm no matter what I do. The belt dressing quiets it down between 2500-3000rpm for a bit, but then just comes right back after a few minutes. Very annoying. Next step is to replace the alternator. Also, I really don't like the way the new steering box feels. It's a little vague, especially turning right just off center. And the steering wheel is not centered any more, so I have to adjust the tie rods. Other than that, all in all, I would say it was a success (so far).
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Re: My Budget 440 Build - IT'S ALIVE!!!
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171703
05/19/12 09:09 AM
05/19/12 09:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880 Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
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I took the Charger to it's first cruise-in of the season last night. It ran perfectly, no issues at all and was greeted with much enthusiasm. I'm very happy so far with the result. Surprisingly, the exhaust is much louder now. It really barks at certain rpm under load. Must be the difference with the headers from the manifolds. I LIKE it! As I am putting more miles on it, I'm pushing it a little more here and there. It seems to have pretty good power all through the rpm range but comes on well at about 2200 and pulls steady. I haven't had it much above 3500rpm. It's definitely breathing better than the other engine and responds well to the secondary carb opening. New clutch and shifter make it a pleasure to drive now.
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Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience)
[Re: bobs66440]
#1171706
09/15/12 09:29 PM
09/15/12 09:29 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Sweet!
Mine runs flawlessly as well but need exhaust and a windshield to really try it out.
Great satisfaction in doing it yourself!
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