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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: TheOtherDodge]
#1206
08/09/03 11:31 PM
08/09/03 11:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73
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OP
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Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
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Quote:
Pete, there is not enough info there to give you an accurate estimate ... I do think that you would have to shift a little higher than 6000 (maybe 6200-6400), and depending on the tire height, run a 3.92 gear minimum.
My error, I meant to say 6400.
I plugged 3.91s and 4.10s into the program - the 4.10s were around 6400 just before 1000ft, and the 3.91s just after. Both were about .15 faster than the 3.55s
The data I input (Desktop Dyno) was the following:
340 bored .030 over w/ 4" stroke for 416.3 cubes
750cfm carb - (I have a 750 Holley with choke plate removed, I am milling off the air horn this fall)
Dual Plane Intake (Edelbrock Performer RPM)
10.50:1 true compression
.038 gasket thickness
Edelbrock closed chamber aluminum heads (milled to 59cc) - also input the advertised flow #s off Ebrock's website - I have highly polished chambers and exhaust ports - pushrod pinch cleaned up slightly - gasket match - did not compensate for additional flow. Head Flow Data for Dyno 2000
2.02 and 1.60 valves
Edelbrock .488/.510 cam, 234/244 @ .050 2* advanced - valve timing specs taken off Ebrock website Cam Data for Dyno 2000
Small tube headers and mufflers - (Hooker 1 5/8" headers, 2 1/2" dual exhaust w/ Flomaster 40s out the factory tips )
727 TF with manual/auto VB
3200 stall converter
3.55 PowerLock "489" case
8.5" tread - Hoosier Quick Times 26.1" tall 275x55
3480lbs vehicle weight
Large screen capture from DesktopDyno2000
http://www.dubaldomusic.com/416_Ebrock.jpg
Small cropped photo from same "pull"
Does that seem about "right" ?
Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: RyanJ]
#1207
08/10/03 10:45 AM
08/10/03 10:45 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Agree with W8Dart421 on the Mallory int. vs ext. thing. It's a lot of money for not much return; all 454 BBC are external with 4" stroke and about the same rod length. The mark-up on the stuff is about the same as gold - it's only tungsten ("Densalloy" is another one), but has to be alloyed to make it machinable so its $$$. You could do a slower but much less expensive job by substituting lead or (for those who believe in dieing young) mercury. The key to this stuff is the relative density of the "slug" material over the steel or iron it replaces. Tungsten is 147% heavier, so replacing a 1/2" cylinderical section with it adds a lot, mercury less, and lead only 43% heavier than steel.
For example, if the equivalent lead weight would have to be 75% more volume than Mallory to make up the same imbalance: if 4 slugs 1/2" X 1" were used, you'd need 7, etc. Drilling 3 extra holes to save $200?!!
From the standpoint of crank stress: yes, I would agree in theory that having the counterweights next to the imbalance (crank throws) instead of hanging on the outside is better.
Ideally, each counterweight should carry the imbalance of its rod pair (total of 8 weights), but many internally balanced motors have NO center counterweights - all the balancing is on the outer weights; Chrysler hemis only have 6 weights, which leave the weakest center area with heavily eccentric weight. They seemed to do OK?
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
#1208
08/10/03 12:54 PM
08/10/03 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73
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Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
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ejit - thank you for the explanation, makes sense to me!
Any suggestions for a STREETABLE cam?
i.e. not a .575 solid that needs to be adjusted every week - prefer hydraulic, but....
-I am starting to toss $ into an account just for this project.
Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
#1209
08/10/03 01:34 PM
08/10/03 01:34 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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4" Strokers are the best SB motors for the street if you want some performance with them.
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
#1210
08/10/03 03:00 PM
08/10/03 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 416
Deweyville, UT
RUDF1
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 416
Deweyville, UT
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"Streetable" will mean different things to different people, I am looking at a 230/236 @ .050 CompCams XE274, with 1.6 rockers will be around .520 or so, Comp says this will work with stock spring Eheads.
1971 Dart GT
1973 Dart Swinger
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: Crazy73]
#1212
08/10/03 05:22 PM
08/10/03 05:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 416
Deweyville, UT
RUDF1
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 416
Deweyville, UT
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I was concerned with ramp speed with the XE cam, will be a little faster with 1.6 rockers.
Most people suggest to me around 240 @ .050 for a 408/416; I am being a little conservative because this is a daily driver street car that will sometimes see the track, not a "streetable" race car, but it is on the mellow side for a stroker from what I have read so far. I would say if a similar cam is streetable to you in a 340 you could definately go hotter in your stroker.
1971 Dart GT
1973 Dart Swinger
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: RUDF1]
#1213
08/10/03 09:51 PM
08/10/03 09:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73
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Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
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RUDF1, What are you trying to achieve for power? Quote:
I am being a little conservative because this is a daily driver street car that will sometimes see the track
That is what my Dart Sport is. I drive it all the time. Mileage is not an issue as much as not overheating in traffic, run on pump gas, but still be able to lay waste to most cars on the road.
The front/rear anti-sway bars help!
Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: Crazy73]
#1214
08/11/03 12:20 PM
08/11/03 12:20 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Here is the big difference between strokers and standard stroke small blocks... Streetability. You can put a larger cam profile in a stroker and still have good idle and vacuum. My 240/246 .507/.510 lift cam is fairly mild in my stroker. Remember the increased stroke eats some of the cam duration. The 238/246 .548/.558 retrofit roller cam in the stroker built for my brother's car is just as mild and a bit more powerful. You put cams like these in a standard stroke small block and they will not make as much horsepower or torque as the stroker and the idle will be far less streetable, and in some people eyes they wouldn't be streetable at all. These are what I consider the starting point for strokers while they are about as much as you can put in a standard stroke street smallblock. I don't think they start getting lumpy until the 250@.050 range and that should be pushing you over .600" lift...
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: SKR8PN]
#1215
08/11/03 01:37 PM
08/11/03 01:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
My 408 is going BACK to the dyno next week with a MUCH BETTER cam in it,BUT, with a POS,basically STOCK cam(don't ask) that engine made 416 FT LBS and 306 HP. ON A BASICALLY STOCK CAM !!!
I can't think of ANY reason a person would be against building a stroker.More torque/Horsepower and less RPM.For the street,that is no brainer...... Like was stated in an earlier post,cost is a wash.......specially if you can do a little trading of parts for some machine work.............MOST machine shops in this area would KILL for a set of 5.2/5.9 Magnum head castings,crankshafts and/or blocks 
a wee bit of SHOPPING for deals on the other parts and you can easily build a stroker for about the same money as standard rebuild. $.02
not to hijack the post, but what did you end up doing for a cam in this one?
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: Crazy73]
#1216
08/11/03 01:47 PM
08/11/03 01:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Yes, the stock spring Eheads are good for up to .575 lift at valve. I have 1.5 roller rockers on my engine now. That cam would work out to around .488 - which is what I have in there now. (.488/.510 234/244* ) I dont think it is enough for a 416? Or is it?
It is very streetable in my 340.
However, it did stall out at a stoplight the other night.... was stopped for about 2 minutes waiting for the arrow, and it stalled - fully warmed up - carb idle not high enough maybe? its around 600 +/-
my guess is a cam like that will give ya 12-14" vacuum at idle, maybe more in a 4" stroker combo....with your eheads, I'd look at the new HEH 3742 AL or HEH 4246 AL from hughes...they might even idle more mild than your current cam on a 3.31" stroke does...
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: patrick]
#1217
08/11/03 03:00 PM
08/11/03 03:00 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I pull over 14" of vaccum on my stroker, anything under 240 @.050 .500" is too small for a stroker, unless you want a stump pulling truck motor  Don't even think of using a Hughes cam with stock ehead springs, spend the $160 to respring those heads if you use a fast ramp rate cam like a hughes, it's not all about amount of lift...
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1219
08/12/03 07:25 AM
08/12/03 07:25 AM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Pete, I think youre leaning in the right direction. I remember when 74Duster360 stroked his 360 and made NO OTHER changes. I couldn't believe the attitude change in the motor. The 360 with 244@.050 hughes solid cam and 10.8:1 compression wanted to be tached to 6400. The 408 was down to 10:1, made "big blockish" torque (Hi Ryan  ) and now was shifted at 6000 rpm at the track for best e.t.. This car had the worst hacked iron heads you will ever see. They were junk. The car was a few hundred pounds lighter than yours and ran more gear but went 11.70's all day. As much as you street drive the car, and for what your planning on doing I would definately go the stroker route. You wont be spinning it hard so follow Ryans advice and save the money on the internal balance job. Keep the 3.55's until you can find someone to swap you some 3.91's or a good deal on a chunk comes around. I'd look into something like the Comp XE284 cam or maybe the Hughes 3844 hydraulic which is 238/244 @.050 and 536/540 lift or something like that.
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
#1220
08/12/03 07:45 AM
08/12/03 07:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
Crazy73
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,580
CT - just outside Hartford
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Quote:
Pete, I think youre leaning in the right direction.
...
As much as you street drive the car, and for what your planning on doing I would definately go the stroker route. You wont be spinning it hard so follow Ryans advice and save the money on the internal balance job. Keep the 3.55's until you can find someone to swap you some 3.91's or a good deal on a chunk comes around. I'd look into something like the Comp XE284 cam or maybe the Hughes 3844 hydraulic which is 238/244 @.050 and 536/540 lift or something like that.
Gary, thanks for the advice.
I was pointed towards either of the following of the fast lifter velocity grinds... They are a little larger, but are also solids.... Dunno if I should stay hydraulic or go the solid route?
HTL 4652 AS .555"/.572" 246°/252° @.050 106° CL
HTL 4852 AS .563"/.572" 248°/252° @.050 106° CL
Looking at the Hughes website for the cam you recommended, the only one close I could find was
HER 3644 AL .533"/.540" 236°/244° @.050 114° CL
Which is a hydraulic roller cam.
If I were to swap to a roller cam, that would entail lots of other valvetrain goodies, right?
I want the swap as hassle-free as possible.
And if I am not spinning the engine as high, why would internal balance be better? 
The less $$ I have to cough up, the better
Pete
-1968 Barracuda 4spd 383-6pk
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Re: 10:1 Mild Stroker 416s - output?
[Re: Crazy73]
#1221
08/12/03 09:21 AM
08/12/03 09:21 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Pete, going to a roller is going to cost you $1,000. Even going to a solid flat tappet will be an extra $80 for pushrods. I like solids myself, and if that is what you decided to do, the rule of thumb is to go roughly 6-7 degrees bigger @.050 with the solid cam for the same rpm range. If you plan to keep the power brakes, I wouldnt recommend anything bigger than say 240@.050 with a hydraulic and 245ish with a solid. Thats the ragid edge. And nothing tighter than 108 or so on the LSA either.
IMO, with a street type application (6000 rpm or so), a good newer design hydraulic cam is going to make within 10-15 horsepower of a solid cam of similar rpm range. An apples to apples comparison years ago with my car showed a <a href="mailto:12.19@114[/Email] with the 3844 Hughes hydro and a 12.08 with the 4550 solid..
Here is Hughes new HEH hydraulic that has replaced the old 3844..
HEH 3742 AL INT .548" EXH .555" 237°/242° 108°
I actually like the idea of making your E-heads "work" a little more over the .500 mark because they flow real well up there. I also have to agree with a spring change. Its an easy deal and decent springs can be had for $100 bones.
Last edited by Unlawfl; 08/12/03 09:32 AM.
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