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Re: Anyone ever upgraded their engine to Propane?
[Re: Pyper70]
#1119635
11/24/11 02:15 PM
11/24/11 02:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
68HemiB
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 9,312
SoCal
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I'm late to the party here, but there were two dual fuel cars in the family back in the mid 1970's - the days of oil embargoes and CA state subsidies for "clean air" stuff. One conversion was my sister's 1972(?) AMC Hornet 258 and the other was my dad's 1971 Newport with a 383 magnum. Both were done by the same outfit, and shared the same basic setup.
Here's what I recall:
Tank in the trunk, taking up much of the space in the Hornet, and fitting easily in the Newport.
Had a state sticker that exempted us from the state tax on propane (early tree-hugger "clean air" stuff). Got us a good price at the pump, but you had to fill up at a short list of propane stations. You could not buy from the fill-your-BBQ-tank deal behind the gasoline station.
Exemption from NOx retrofit requirements.
Delivered liquid from the tank to an underhood mixer. If I remember correctly, the mixer had engine coolant plumbed to it.
The system used the throat of the carburetor as the propane delivery device, with a large metal elbow in place of the air cleaner assembly.
To switch between fuels, the driver hit an electrical toggle switch (fuel cutoff valves) AND pushed or pulled a plunger (cabled to the air diverter).
Power was noticeably down when running on propane, and overall vehicle performance [no matter the fuel] was not helped by lugging around a big propane tank in the trunk. The hornet got sold with the equipment on it, but the Newport was traded in on my dad's next car, and the dealer absolutely required that the propane stuff be removed. I took it off for him, and had the use of the car for the weekend before turning it in on Monday. Boy am I sorry I didn't have a chance to drive the Newport longer - that car was a surprisingly fast car running on gasoline and not carrying around all the propane stuff.
On a dual fuel car running propane through the carb, it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to run it on gasoline periodically. My dad was not as careful as he should have been on this point. One time, the car was run out of propane after not running on gas for a long time. I was tasked to drive it down to fill it with propane. It ran like crap, started smoking at the end of the trip, and died just as I pulled up beside the twenty foot tall tanks of propane.
Trivia:
a. A sixteen year old on adrenaline can single-handedly push a 1971 Newport about 50 feet, especially if it is on fire beside twenty foot tall tanks of propane.
b. There are a surprising number of fire extinguishers on hand at a propane station, and even the clerical help in the office are willing to wield them if it seems necessary.
Down to just a blue car now.
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Re: Anyone ever upgraded their engine to Propane?
[Re: fullonmopar]
#1119636
11/25/11 02:01 AM
11/25/11 02:01 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
GO_Fish
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,167
Maryland
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Quote:
Quote:
I speed read through this post, sorry if duplicate... I did some brief research on this a few years ago, and the deal killer (if you must keep your car legal (and laws may vary)) was that the high pressure tanks have a limited lifespan. The vehicle itself may have years of life left in it, but when the tank certification expired, the vehicle was basically scrap. Replacement tank costs exceeded the value of the vehicle. 
The law states in OZ that any pressure vessel (inc vehicle lpg tanks) must be examined for internal rust, dents, welding fatique etc every 10 years and the average cost by a licensed inspector is $200 because the tank has to be removed from the vehicle. Very few tanks fail and the same tank is reuasable for another 10 years once certified and date stamped. Some earlier tanks were stainless steel to save weight but they tended to get damaged easier because they are much thinner and the welds tended to be porous. If a tank fails a test second hand tanks with a fresh certification only cost $300 fitted by a licenced gas fitter. The laws here are very strict and mechanics have to do an intensive course to be able to fit LPG to cars and their work is often subject to random inspections.
Here in Maryland (little California  ), I was looking at gov't auctions for mid-90's mopar small block trucks and B-vans and Y2K ish Ferd Crown Vics that were factory set up for LNG. They were basically going for near salvage value because the tanks had expired. I stopped looking at that point, maybe I quit researching too soon. The other HUGE problem here was that only local governments were supporting these vehicles so re-fueling stations were VERY limited, you'd need to drive 20 miles out of your way to fuel up. However, I have also seen regular gas stations in other areas (near Fairmont and Morgantown, West Virginia, IIRC) that were situated close to natural gas production and sold LNG freely to the public. Good if you live in one of these areas.
Scott B.
"I'm a self-made man... I started with nothing, and I still have most of it!"
68 360 rusty B'cuda 'vert (GO Fish)13.59@ 98.72 mph
69 340 GTS stock 14.18@ 95.60 mph
01 5.9L Ram 1500 Quad Cab 4x4
01 3.5L 300M 16.23@ 86.97 mph
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Re: Anyone ever upgraded their engine to Propane?
[Re: DennisH ]
#1119638
11/25/11 11:53 AM
11/25/11 11:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,902
Athens, Greece
Pyper70
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,902
Athens, Greece
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Well 90% of the gas stations in Greece have AutoGas (LPG/Propane) so there isn't a problem there. If I do go ahead with it, it will be dual fuel...so even if one runs out, you have the other to scoot you home.
Family owned 1969 Charger R/T DualQuad 440/727/GVO/3.55s
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Re: Anyone ever upgraded their engine to Propane?
[Re: GO_Fish]
#1119639
11/25/11 12:43 PM
11/25/11 12:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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Quote:
Here in Maryland (little California ), I was looking at gov't auctions for mid-90's mopar small block trucks and B-vans and Y2K ish Ferd Crown Vics that were factory set up for LNG. They were basically going for near salvage value because the tanks had expired.
I few years ago
when I was searching salvage yards online
looking for
factory Dodge 1992-1995 5.2 CNG vehicles,
I noticed that there were a lot of
Propane conversion 5.2/5.9 V8 Dodges
in salvage yards in Canada
and some in the far northern USA.
Apparently in the early 1990's the Canadian government had a tax incentive program to convert vehicles to Propane.
At late year 2011 current prices
CNG is a lot less expensive than
Propane.
As a rough 'rule of thumb'
you can take the
'cost per million Btu' price of natural gas,
divide by 10
then add in 50 cents
to find the
"Gasoline equivalent price" of CNG
With bulk
Natural gas prices
around
$ 3.57 per million BTU fon the futures markets
0.357 plus 0.50
= 86 cents per gallon fuel
Propane is in the
$2 to $3 per gallon range in the summer
when prices are best,
and you need to increase this by about 15% to reflect the LPG heating value difference compared to
117,000 BTU per US gallon
average 87 octane
USA pump gasoline
{even less in winter blend}
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Re: Anyone ever upgraded their engine to Propane?
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1119643
11/25/11 03:41 PM
11/25/11 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
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Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Trivia:
a. A sixteen year old on adrenaline can single-handedly push a 1971 Newport about 50 feet, especially if it is on fire beside twenty foot tall tanks of propane.
b. There are a surprising number of fire extinguishers on hand at a propane station, and even the clerical help in the office are willing to wield them if it seems necessary.
Life sure was boring before youtube and you could share circumstances like that with the rest of us. 
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