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Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
#1117208
11/19/11 10:37 PM
11/19/11 10:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 228
FL
HelleOnWheels
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Car is a 67 RT with manual drum brakes. I installed a new master cylinder, new lines and new wheel cylinders. The only parts that were re-used were the brake safety switch (manifold) and the rear axle distribution block. I started by doing a bench bleed on the master and it seemed to go fine. Kept pumping until all the bubbles had gone away. I let it sit overnight and pumped it again just to make sure. I installed it on the car and hooked up the new lines and wheel cylinders. I hooked up hoses to each of the bleeder screws and let them gravity bleed into small cups. After I had a nice flow coming out in each of the cups, I closed the screws. SOFT PEDAL!!!  I decided to go the old fashioned way and got a buddy and a cup of fluid. I started at the passenger rear and put the bleeder hose into the cup of fluid and had buddy press brake pedal until I had no more bubbles and had a nice flow of fluid that was rising in the cup. Went around and did all of the rest of them the same way. SOFT PEDAL!!! Did it again with the cup.....SOFT PEDAL!!!  What in the world am I doing wrong? This is my first time bleeding 4 wheel drum brakes, but not my first time working on a car!!!! I don't see any leaks anywhere and am not losing fluid when I drive it around the neighborhood. Any thoughts?
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: HelleOnWheels]
#1117209
11/19/11 10:50 PM
11/19/11 10:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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I'd get 2 brass male inverted flare plugs from the "Edelman" cabinet at your parts house of the dia of the M/C ports (maybe 2 diff dia's) and take the lines back off & plug them. They're cheap & you WILL use them for diagnostics in the future. If the M/C is good (& bled out) the pedal will now be rock hard w virtually no travel. If good there take out the rearmost brass plug & hookup & bleed out the fronts & get them till the pedal is again high and tight then hookup the rear drums & same deal. The only caveat I can think of happening in the procedure is if a bleeder screw(s) ain't being closed all the way before your helper lets up on the pedal.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1117212
11/19/11 11:01 PM
11/19/11 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 228
FL
HelleOnWheels
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Quote:
I'd get 2 brass male inverted flare plugs from the "Edelman" cabinet at your parts house of the dia of the M/C ports (maybe 2 diff dia's) and take the lines back off & plug them. They're cheap & you WILL use them for diagnostics in the future. If the M/C is good (& bled out) the pedal will now be rock hard w virtually no travel. If good there take out the rearmost brass plug & hookup & bleed out the fronts & get them till the pedal is again high and tight then hookup the rear drums & same deal. The only caveat I can think of happening in the procedure is if a bleeder screw(s) ain't being closed all the way before your helper lets up on the pedal.
Thanks...I will be trying this tomorrow
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: WILD BILL]
#1117214
11/19/11 11:06 PM
11/19/11 11:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 228
FL
HelleOnWheels
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Quote:
Are all 4 drums adjusted properly?
Have your buddy pump the pedal (with the car running if it has power assist) about 5 times and then hold it. While he is holding pressure on the pedal, open the bleeder (his foot should go down) and then close the bleeder before he lifts his foot off.
Repeat this process 3 times at each wheel then check the pedal. It may even take one more go around (3x's each wheel).
Question for you....here is my exact steps when at each wheel cylinder
1. Put hose on bleeder screw and into cup making sure it is below fluid level in cup.
2. Crack bleeder screw open
3. Tell buddy to press on brake
4. He keeps pumping until I do not see any bubbles(approx 3 times.
5. Tell buddy to hold pedal down after last pump and then I close bleeder screw.
Move to next wheel
I noticed that you said have him pump brake pedal a few times and THEN crack the bleeder screw.
I was cracking the bleeder screw and THEN pumping it...the closing it..
Is this why I am screwing it up?
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: HelleOnWheels]
#1117216
11/19/11 11:19 PM
11/19/11 11:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Mass
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OK so your issue was procedure in bleeding.... As stated have your helper pump up the brakes several times, then crack the bleeder, making sure your helper is pushing the pedal ALL THE WAY to the floor, and HOLDING IT, until you yell out "PUMP IT" to repeat the process, and make sure your assistant holds pressure and follows the pedal to the floor when you yell out "HOLD IT"....you wouldn't believe how many times a helper can FUBAR this operation, esp if it's the wife   DAMHIK...take your choice in starting at either the front or rear, but in any case start with the wheel FARTHEST from the master, or with the longest brake line from the master...goodluck 
Last edited by DAYCLONA; 11/19/11 11:23 PM.
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: B5 Bee]
#1117218
11/20/11 12:04 AM
11/20/11 12:04 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
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Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
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Quote:
I was cracking the bleeder screw and THEN pumping it...the closing it..
Is this why I am screwing it up?
YES.
Pump till you get the best pedal possible, then crack open the bleeder, the pedal will go to the floor, hold it on the floor, close bleeder, release pedal.
Repeat process till the pedal is firm.
If you pump the pedal while the bleeder is open you will back suck air back into the lines. You need the pressure of the fluid to force the air out and it must be a 1 way path. Best way to ensure this s to close the bleeder before your partner is to the floor on the pedal.
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: WILD BILL]
#1117219
11/20/11 03:04 AM
11/20/11 03:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,707
North Dakota
6PakBee
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North Dakota
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It may help to start with the shortest line first rather than the longest line. As to the procedure, using the "pump and hold" technique, my wife and I can usually bleed a set of brakes easily in 30 minutes or less depending on how many components were worked on.
"We live in a time when intelligent people are being silenced so that stupid people won't be offended".
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: 6PakBee]
#1117220
11/20/11 09:11 AM
11/20/11 09:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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I never like the pedal to go all the way to the floor.You can damamge the master that way by pushing it too far.I always just have the pusher apply light pressure after the pump and then open the bleeder and have them push it lightly down.That way you can damage the master seals.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1117222
11/20/11 12:55 PM
11/20/11 12:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
Too Many Posts
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Marysville, O-H-I-O
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lots of good information on the pedal pumping procedure, but only one or 2 mentions of the shoes themselves.
the reason it's important to check the shoes for proper adjustment, is because unlike a disc where the pad "floats" right at the disc with no return spring, a drum brake has springs to physically pull the shoes away from the drums.
if you do not have the shoes adjusted properly, so that they are ever so slightly dragging on the drums, then your return springs are pulling them to far back in and the wheel cylinders are being "fully compressed"
when you pump the pedal, what you THINK is a soft pedal from air in the system could actually just be the airgap between the shoes and the drum being taken up by pedal stroke.
add in the fact that all 4 of your wheels are drums, and it's even that much more critical that your shoes are properly adjusted and seated.
--jack on one wheel at a time, have a helper step on the pedal to push out on the shoes, then grab the wheel and try turning it back and forth. this will help to seat the shoe. then release the pedal and click out on the adjuster.
this may need to be done a few times if the shoes are new, as the high spots will wear away quickly, and the brakes will go out of adjustment very fast until the shoes fully bed themselves to the drums.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: 6PakBee]
#1117223
11/20/11 05:32 PM
11/20/11 05:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
It may help to start with the shortest line first rather than the longest line. As to the procedure, using the "pump and hold" technique, my wife and I can usually bleed a set of brakes easily in 30 minutes or less depending on how many components were worked on.
I also would recommend checking the brake drum adjustment.
I used to have my girlfriend and then wife help me bleed brakes.
We get divorced and get back together after 20 years and we are talking. She said she would help me do anything except bleed car brakes.  Out of nowhere she say's this. She even told her daughters to never help bleed brakes. 
I guess I really got frustrated when she helped me?
20+ years ago I was given a old pressure brake bleeder, and it has turned out to be one of the most useful tools I own.
It'll bleed anything 100% every time the first time with one guy in minutes not hours. 
Freshly rebuilt with new hose and hardware in this picture. The guy who gave it to me thought the rubber diaphragm was shot in it. It wasn't and I have had it apart about 3 times in 20+ years to paint it and to maintain it. Diaphragm is still good and probably will last forever. I store it with fluid in it and under pressure. I have many different MC adapters for different MC.
Top half holds 1 gallon of brake fluid and the bottom half get's pressurized to 25 psi. There's never any contact of the air to the brake fluid this way. Better than those plastic pump up pressure bleeders that pump air into the brake fluid.
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: 70runner]
#1117225
11/20/11 08:17 PM
11/20/11 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 228
FL
HelleOnWheels
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Quote:
Great thread - tech archives?
I have a completely new brake system in my 70RR, front disks/rr drums, so this will come in handy. Does anyone know the approx system fluid capacity?
I'm glad my ignorance/inexperience has brought us this great thread  , but I would rather my ignorance NOT be memorialized in the tech archives!!!!
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Re: Soft Brake Pedal after bleeding 3 times?????
[Re: 70runner]
#1117227
11/20/11 08:54 PM
11/20/11 08:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 228
FL
HelleOnWheels
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Quote:
There's really no such thing as an ignorant question in this forum. In my case, I've been bleeding brakes on mopars for 30yrs and I learned a couple things in this thread. Some sharp folks around here.
Thanks!!!
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