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Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
#110505
08/26/08 09:59 AM
08/26/08 09:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
InViolent
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
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I have some noise on the RH side of my 440 I can't pin down.
It's a fresh engine with maybe 100 miles on it. The RH side has been making noise since the get go...and I blamed it on my Crane Alum Rockers, which are noisy. I swapped in some new Crane Ductiles and the rocker noise is down considerably, but I am still left with what appears to be valve train noise/problem on the RH side.
I have a number of things I am worried about!, but for now, can we talk about collpased lifter sound. How can I verify if I have or dont have a problem lifter or two?
I am running a new Lunati Voodoo 513/533 hyd flat tappet cam with their standard lifters (no anti-pump up style)
Don't want ot pull the intake (6 pack and it actually SEALED for me on the first try!!!) unless needed.
Any help appreciated. I am getting tired of trying to locate the source of this noise!
Last edited by InViolent; 08/28/08 08:57 AM.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: InViolent]
#110511
08/26/08 11:58 AM
08/26/08 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
I have NOT ruled out exhaust issues...in fact...I found a hole in the weld at the headpipe to flange...I tossed some JB weld in there to give me 5 minutes to see if it would shut the noise up, but it didn't....At first, I was convinced the main noise was coming from the manifold....I am still not sure, but my gut is telling me it sounds more metallic than exhaust leak...
I wouldn't rule out the exh leak yet , a leak at the head sounds very much like a sticky lifter . did you check the manifolds before installing them on a surface plate or a known FLAT surface ?
Don't rule out a lobe going flat , it will keep moving the rocker till it grinds it completely flat , check to see if any pushrods have loosened up .
Also do you have an old valvecover ? cut the top off to help keep the oil in the head area , you'll still make a mess but not as big a mess ...
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: stumpy]
#110512
08/26/08 11:58 AM
08/26/08 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
MoparforLife
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,200
Upper Midwest
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Quote:
Are you sure it's not exhaust related? How about the heat riser in the exhaust manifold rattling?
 Also with that cam did you make sure that you have enough valve spring to go avoid coil bind and did you check the clearance with the valve open of the valve spring retainer to the valve guide and seal. You need at least .060 more travel in the valve spring than the actual valve lift and at least the same amount between the guide/seal and the spring retainer. You did check installed height and make sure of closed spring pressure at installed height. Loose springs can be noisy. 
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: MoparforLife]
#110513
08/26/08 12:53 PM
08/26/08 12:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
InViolent
OP
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
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Right now, I can't rule out anything except the noise is NOT the rockers hitting the valve cover....the sound is similar to "that" sound by the way. I am thinking of making a video of this POS and putting it up so people could listen. I bought a 12$ stethoscope at Napa today, and will give it a try tommorow and update this post.
Now, regarding clearance and spring pressures...All was well with that area. And again, this is definately ISOLATED. The LH side of this engine sounds fine, and RH side is "one or possibly 2" locations. The engine runs/idles fairly smoothly for such a cam profile IMHO, although at times I almost think it's hitting on 7 cyls...Look, I am not sure what to expect from this cam regarding what is "normal and expected" versus "somethings wrong"!!!
I just want to eliminate the simple things first..hopefully before I drop a valve and go back to square one.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: InViolent]
#110516
08/27/08 11:49 PM
08/27/08 11:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Just thinking out loud. As I was reading this thread I was thinking throughout that you should replace the lifters on that side(at least) & break the cam in again as my thinking has been influenced by several recent threads which ended up being bad lifters as the culprit but after listening to the audio it sounds different from clicking lifters I have heard in the past & sounds like rocker shaft/rocker arm contact. Keep us posted. Inquiring minds(will) want to know.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: GMP440]
#110517
08/28/08 08:33 AM
08/28/08 08:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
InViolent
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
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Some more info on the RH Exhaust.
This is the correct manifold for a 70-71 e-body. The heat riser assy has been removed, and I installed bolts and nuts to seal the shaft holes. This appears to still be intact. One of the mounting ear locations was cracked but it's the front-most location at the #2 cyl, and it appears to be sealed there.
The headpipes are the repop pipes available, but the car was originally a 383 and when I put the car together 5 or 6 years ago, I bought the "383" head pipes. When I put the 440 in, I called to inquire about new headpipes and was told "Oh, we sell the same pipe for both B and RB engines"...when I tried to bolt the manifold up, I was getting frame/body interference since the 440 sits up a little higher. This was on the RH side only, and required that I use a loose flange spacer and 2 headpipe to manifold gaskets. I originally assumed that this was the source of the leak, but have not been able to determine if this is indeed the issue. Again, I did find a hole in the weld on the headpipe...and JB welded it to see if that would stop the noise. The JB weld is still on there and covering the whole in the video.
I have another manifold coming in, in better shape than this one...so I intend to swap out manifolds anyway and get this flange/headpipe looked at by a quality muffler shop.
Any more comments?
I appreciate the thoughts.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: InViolent]
#110518
08/28/08 10:47 AM
08/28/08 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,663
E.Amherst, NY
69RR
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,663
E.Amherst, NY
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Sounds to me like an exhaust manifold issue. Have you pulled each plug wire from the right bank? It may help eliminate that exhaust as part of the problem. Just my  Hope you solve it.
Dean
Got my hands on the wheel, foot to the pedal, gonna drive this car till the tires turn to metal - gonna sleep when I'm dead and laugh at the devil..
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: InViolent]
#110522
08/28/08 11:36 AM
08/28/08 11:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
Mopar-Al
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 6,780
Alabama
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Quote:
Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal gaskets are used.
The head pipe to manifold gaskets are typical Fel-Pro...but like I said...I am running a SPACER to get the damn pipe off the underbody....I took the spacer and RTV'd the two gaskets to it when I installed this engine last summer.
I had those same gaskets on my 440-6 mine made the same noise or close to it. I had to tighten them up over and over. Then someone said to run my manifolds without gaskets, that they came that way from the factory.
I wasn't sure if that was true or not, but I pulled mine off and went without gaskets on the pass side. No more noise.
Yr one has a seperate part number for the 440-6 head pipes. Mine went on without any problems. They cost like 106 each.
In 70 there is a different part number for one of the manifolds. I got mine off of a 70 challenger six pack. The flange had a different twist to it rather than the b body 69 stuff.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: Mopar-Al]
#110524
08/28/08 11:43 AM
08/28/08 11:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
InViolent
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
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Man...it seems counter-intuitive to think I could get a better seal without a gasket...what about Copper gaskets? Are they saying the Mr Gasket or Fel Pro gaskets are tearing or getting crushed or something?
The engine moves around quite a bit at Idle.....with a little RPM's it smooths out.
But yeah, those rubber mounts may not last long.
Last edited by InViolent; 08/28/08 11:45 AM.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: InViolent]
#110525
08/28/08 12:52 PM
08/28/08 12:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
Rug_Trucker
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
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Lightly buff the head and the manifold with the 3M pads you use on the angle die grinder. Check for flattness, add a thin layer off copper RTV. No gasket!
"The only thing to do for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
"NUNQUAM NON PARATUS!"
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis
[Re: Mopar-Al]
#110526
08/28/08 01:09 PM
08/28/08 01:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,816
Alton, IL
Dakota_Don
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,816
Alton, IL
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Quote:
Quote:
Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal gaskets are used.
The head pipe to manifold gaskets are typical Fel-Pro...but like I said...I am running a SPACER to get the damn pipe off the underbody....I took the spacer and RTV'd the two gaskets to it when I installed this engine last summer.
I had those same gaskets on my 440-6 mine made the same noise or close to it. I had to tighten them up over and over. Then someone said to run my manifolds without gaskets, that they came that way from the factory.
I wasn't sure if that was true or not, but I pulled mine off and went without gaskets on the pass side. No more noise.
Yr one has a seperate part number for the 440-6 head pipes. Mine went on without any problems. They cost like 106 each.
In 70 there is a different part number for one of the manifolds. I got mine off of a 70 challenger six pack. The flange had a different twist to it rather than the b body 69 stuff.
sounds like a exh leak, id get the surface straight and then put them on without a gasket as mentioned above..
the seal quite well without a gasket on the exh manifolds
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: InViolent]
#110527
08/28/08 06:40 PM
08/28/08 06:40 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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hey...make a gasket out of poster paper[white],install and run a few minutes,remove and read..nice ride. 
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
#110528
08/28/08 07:19 PM
08/28/08 07:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,086
Baton Rouge, La.
StandOnIt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,086
Baton Rouge, La.
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Man, that thing is RUINED, ya need to sell it to me REAL cheap...haha.. Yeah, thats a nice little exhaust leak ya got there. I have had them come loose on me and I have just retightened them until the gasket would "seat in", I guess the word would be. By the way, Shes a "beaut".. 
76' Volare, 5.9 magnum w/Iron heads. New best 10.68 at 123 mph 1/4 mile.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: StandOnIt]
#110529
08/28/08 07:28 PM
08/28/08 07:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,319
Chicago Burbs
sthemi
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 3,319
Chicago Burbs
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No gasket is needed with stock manifolds. Prepare the manifold sealing surface with a 12 in flat mill file to remove any high spots or garbage left on it. I would take the manifold to a muffler shop and hve them braze the shaft holes for the hear riser if you are not going to use it. Clean the head sealing surface and bolt it up. 
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: InViolent]
#110540
08/29/08 10:25 AM
08/29/08 10:25 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
You know, these Mr Gasket gaskets don't line up well at all with the ports. Their port openinga are too large. There is very little coverage at all at the Tops of the ports.
When talking "no gasket", is it generally agreed that I should use a "a little" copper RTV applied to the manifold prior to bolting up?
and I am assuming that Headpipe to manifold gasket(s) are required. I don't go "no gasket here, do I?
I have found that most of the brands of copper header flange gaskets do not line up with the ports, most of them have holes that are too big - this is a problem with a small-primary header, but should not be as big a deal with a manifold. Can't comment on fiber gaskets, haven't used any for 15 years but OEM-sized gaskets should be OK?
I have had good luck installign manifolds with no gaskets or RTV. I'd say the copper RTV is optional, if you have some on-hand give it a try, you've already had the manifold off so it's a 20-min job to R&R it. If you still have a leak give the RTV a try.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: RapidRobert]
#110542
08/29/08 10:37 AM
08/29/08 10:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
InViolent
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
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I just went to Summit and here is how they list:
Fel-Pro
Port Ht 1.33
Port Width 1.84
Ultra Seal
Ht 1.48
Wt 1.78
That's a pretty substantial difference in height. These Mr Gasket port holes seem too large in the height direction when laying them down on the stock manifold. There was almost NO material covering the top of all of the ports at all. You can see the carbon lines on the manifold along the tops of each port....and it's right at (or maybe past!) the edge of the ports. Not Good.
BTW: I have used this mani for 5 or 6 years....this is really the first time I've had serious issues with it. Laying a straight edge over the ports, it sure seems pretty straight to me. I didnt get the feeler gauges out, but eyeing it up, I can't say this POS is warped to a point that it wouldn't give me a decent seal.
Last edited by InViolent; 08/29/08 10:41 AM.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: InViolent]
#110544
08/29/08 11:08 AM
08/29/08 11:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I just went to Summit and here is how they list:
Fel-Pro
Port Ht 1.33
Port Width 1.84
Ultra Seal
Ht 1.48
Wt 1.78
That's a pretty substantial difference in height. These Mr Gasket port holes seem too large in the height direction when laying them down on the stock manifold. There was almost NO material covering the top of all of the ports at all. You can see the carbon lines on the manifold along the tops of each port....and it's right at (or maybe past!) the edge of the ports. Not Good.
BTW: I have used this mani for 5 or 6 years....this is really the first time I've had serious issues with it. Laying a straight edge over the ports, it sure seems pretty straight to me. I didnt get the feeler gauges out, but eyeing it up, I can't say this POS is warped to a point that it wouldn't give me a decent seal.
the ultra seals are a HEADER gasket to be used more for ported heads .
Yes I was talking about that perforated steel looking gaskets .
forget the straight edge put it on a flat surface and have a light behind it so you will be able to see light under it if it's lifter off the surface , will be most noticable under the center of it .
what heads are you using ? you gasket should fit the manifold opening , what is the size of the actual port on the head ?
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: InViolent]
#110547
08/29/08 03:17 PM
08/29/08 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,005
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Stock port 915 heads.
Mani port = 1.275" High
head port...tough to get verniers in there accurately, but around 1.100" or so. Non-ported.
i assume the head surface is in good condition and not a bumpy from heavy rust ? i have a set of 906's i deemed junk because of this very thing
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: InViolent]
#110549
09/15/08 09:31 AM
09/15/08 09:31 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
InViolent
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,389
Kenmore, New York
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Just wanted to close this thread out. Installed a different manifold, and I opted to go with Fel-Pro Gasket, Dry. Noise is gone. I still have a slight, small leak at the headpipe, but as I said, I found a small hole in the weld at the headpipe flange. The "noise" is 90-95% gone, thus I can start worrying about something else now. Thanks to everyone who chimed in.
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Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
[Re: InViolent]
#110550
09/15/08 11:54 AM
09/15/08 11:54 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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One additional note... Yeah, that was exhaust noises, and the manifolds are about 50/50 as to whether they seal or not. I use the fel pro stock ones, and most importantly regardless of manifold or header, or gasket type, you need to torque them fromt eh center two out. Never the ends in, or from one end to the other. If the manifold is a little warped, tightening from the center may help pull it flat.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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