Moparts
Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!*
Posted By: InViolent
Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/26/08 01:59 PM
I have some noise on the RH side of my 440 I can't pin down.
It's a fresh engine with maybe 100 miles on it. The RH side has been making noise since the get go...and I blamed it on my Crane Alum Rockers, which are noisy. I swapped in some new Crane Ductiles and the rocker noise is down considerably, but I am still left with what appears to be valve train noise/problem on the RH side.
I have a number of things I am worried about!, but for now, can we talk about collpased lifter sound. How can I verify if I have or dont have a problem lifter or two?
I am running a new Lunati Voodoo 513/533 hyd flat tappet cam with their standard lifters (no anti-pump up style)
Don't want ot pull the intake (6 pack and it actually SEALED for me on the first try!!!) unless needed.
Any help appreciated. I am getting tired of trying to locate the source of this noise!
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 02:14 PM
You can pull the valve cover and make sure all the valves are opening and closing. I'd also try the screw driver method..start it up, hold the screw driver to your ear and try to pin point the spot. work from front to rear and when it's the loudest is where you have the problem.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 02:24 PM
OK, thanks..I'll try that.
I ran the engine last night with valve cover off to try to observe the valve train, and all valves are moving (ie: no spun lobe at this point)
Now, I just need to clean up the quart of oil on the floor before going on further!!! What a mess...
Any other suggestions?
Posted By: hemiluver
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 02:45 PM
Hi,
I had and still a have more noise from the left rear of my valve train. It was much louder until I swapped to a new set of lifters,but theres still is a bit of noise which I think is normal-comparing to other 440's. I know its a pain but try like the other guy said to locate the area where its coming. Then remove the valve cover and bump the motor over(no-mess)and push on various rockers to see if one or two lifters feel spongy compared to the others.Does the noise lessen at RPM if so it may be a lifter.I have seen them(brand new) that were put together wrong and wouldnt pump up.Although rare it does happen.If your lucky and its the right lifter sometimes you can get them out without removing the intake,it all depends on the heads casting.if your still running iron heads that is.by the way nice ride!Good luck-Gary
Posted By: stumpy
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 03:09 PM
Are you sure it's not exhaust related? How about the heat riser in the exhaust manifold rattling?
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 03:13 PM
I have NOT ruled out exhaust issues...in fact...I found a hole in the weld at the headpipe to flange...I tossed some JB weld in there to give me 5 minutes to see if it would shut the noise up, but it didn't....At first, I was convinced the main noise was coming from the manifold....I am still not sure, but my gut is telling me it sounds more metallic than exhaust leak...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 03:58 PM
Quote:
I have NOT ruled out exhaust issues...in fact...I found a hole in the weld at the headpipe to flange...I tossed some JB weld in there to give me 5 minutes to see if it would shut the noise up, but it didn't....At first, I was convinced the main noise was coming from the manifold....I am still not sure, but my gut is telling me it sounds more metallic than exhaust leak...
I wouldn't rule out the exh leak yet , a leak at the head sounds very much like a sticky lifter . did you check the manifolds before installing them on a surface plate or a known FLAT surface ?
Don't rule out a lobe going flat , it will keep moving the rocker till it grinds it completely flat , check to see if any pushrods have loosened up .
Also do you have an old valvecover ? cut the top off to help keep the oil in the head area , you'll still make a mess but not as big a mess ...
Posted By: MoparforLife
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 03:58 PM
Quote:
Are you sure it's not exhaust related? How about the heat riser in the exhaust manifold rattling?
Also with that cam did you make sure that you have enough valve spring to go avoid coil bind and did you check the clearance with the valve open of the valve spring retainer to the valve guide and seal. You need at least .060 more travel in the valve spring than the actual valve lift and at least the same amount between the guide/seal and the spring retainer. You did check installed height and make sure of closed spring pressure at installed height. Loose springs can be noisy. 
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/26/08 04:53 PM
Right now, I can't rule out anything except the noise is NOT the rockers hitting the valve cover....the sound is similar to "that" sound by the way. I am thinking of making a video of this POS and putting it up so people could listen. I bought a 12$ stethoscope at Napa today, and will give it a try tommorow and update this post.
Now, regarding clearance and spring pressures...All was well with that area. And again, this is definately ISOLATED. The LH side of this engine sounds fine, and RH side is "one or possibly 2" locations. The engine runs/idles fairly smoothly for such a cam profile IMHO, although at times I almost think it's hitting on 7 cyls...Look, I am not sure what to expect from this cam regarding what is "normal and expected" versus "somethings wrong"!!!
I just want to eliminate the simple things first..hopefully before I drop a valve and go back to square one.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 01:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKaEUm9TA_gHave a listen.....this sound is illusive for me to say the least! Checked the pre-load today and all was well....stethoscope was no help.
Thoughts and comments?
Posted By: GMP440
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:49 AM
That sounds like an exhaust leak about where the rear port of the passenger side exhaust manifold.
Could be also a leak where the head pipe connects to the right exhaust manifold.
Does not sound like valvetrain noise.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:49 AM
Just thinking out loud. As I was reading this thread I was thinking throughout that you should replace the lifters on that side(at least) & break the cam in again as my thinking has been influenced by several recent threads which ended up being bad lifters as the culprit but after listening to the audio it sounds different from clicking lifters I have heard in the past & sounds like rocker shaft/rocker arm contact. Keep us posted. Inquiring minds(will) want to know.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 12:33 PM
Some more info on the RH Exhaust.
This is the correct manifold for a 70-71 e-body. The heat riser assy has been removed, and I installed bolts and nuts to seal the shaft holes. This appears to still be intact. One of the mounting ear locations was cracked but it's the front-most location at the #2 cyl, and it appears to be sealed there.
The headpipes are the repop pipes available, but the car was originally a 383 and when I put the car together 5 or 6 years ago, I bought the "383" head pipes. When I put the 440 in, I called to inquire about new headpipes and was told "Oh, we sell the same pipe for both B and RB engines"...when I tried to bolt the manifold up, I was getting frame/body interference since the 440 sits up a little higher. This was on the RH side only, and required that I use a loose flange spacer and 2 headpipe to manifold gaskets. I originally assumed that this was the source of the leak, but have not been able to determine if this is indeed the issue. Again, I did find a hole in the weld on the headpipe...and JB welded it to see if that would stop the noise. The JB weld is still on there and covering the whole in the video.
I have another manifold coming in, in better shape than this one...so I intend to swap out manifolds anyway and get this flange/headpipe looked at by a quality muffler shop.
Any more comments?
I appreciate the thoughts.
Posted By: 69RR
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 02:47 PM
Sounds to me like an exhaust manifold issue. Have you pulled each plug wire from the right bank? It may help eliminate that exhaust as part of the problem. Just my
Hope you solve it.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:00 PM
99.9% its an exh leak between the manifold and the head .
take the new manifold to the local engine shop you use and have them surface both the head surface and the headpipe surface , head surface at a minmum , you might have to remove the heat riser assembly to have this done .
Posted By: Mopar-Al
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:02 PM
I was going to suggest fuel pump rod untill I listend to your clip a couple of times. It really sounds like exhaust to me. Your not running gaskets right?
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:29 PM
Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal gaskets are used.
The head pipe to manifold gaskets are typical Fel-Pro...but like I said...I am running a SPACER to get the damn pipe off the underbody....I took the spacer and RTV'd the two gaskets to it when I installed this engine last summer.
Posted By: Mopar-Al
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:36 PM
Quote:
Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal gaskets are used.
The head pipe to manifold gaskets are typical Fel-Pro...but like I said...I am running a SPACER to get the damn pipe off the underbody....I took the spacer and RTV'd the two gaskets to it when I installed this engine last summer.
I had those same gaskets on my 440-6 mine made the same noise or close to it. I had to tighten them up over and over. Then someone said to run my manifolds without gaskets, that they came that way from the factory.
I wasn't sure if that was true or not, but I pulled mine off and went without gaskets on the pass side. No more noise.
Yr one has a seperate part number for the 440-6 head pipes. Mine went on without any problems. They cost like 106 each.
In 70 there is a different part number for one of the manifolds. I got mine off of a 70 challenger six pack. The flange had a different twist to it rather than the b body 69 stuff.
Posted By: Mopar-Al
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:38 PM
your video clip showed that you will need an engine tq strap. I'll bet you bust that drivers side mount off after just a couple of hard runs. Then the fan eats the shroud just for starters.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 03:43 PM
Man...it seems counter-intuitive to think I could get a better seal without a gasket...what about Copper gaskets? Are they saying the Mr Gasket or Fel Pro gaskets are tearing or getting crushed or something?
The engine moves around quite a bit at Idle.....with a little RPM's it smooths out.
But yeah, those rubber mounts may not last long.
Posted By: Rug_Trucker
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 04:52 PM
Lightly buff the head and the manifold with the 3M pads you use on the angle die grinder. Check for flattness, add a thin layer off copper RTV. No gasket!
Posted By: Dakota_Don
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/28/08 05:09 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Mr Gasket Ultra-Seal gaskets are used.
The head pipe to manifold gaskets are typical Fel-Pro...but like I said...I am running a SPACER to get the damn pipe off the underbody....I took the spacer and RTV'd the two gaskets to it when I installed this engine last summer.
I had those same gaskets on my 440-6 mine made the same noise or close to it. I had to tighten them up over and over. Then someone said to run my manifolds without gaskets, that they came that way from the factory.
I wasn't sure if that was true or not, but I pulled mine off and went without gaskets on the pass side. No more noise.
Yr one has a seperate part number for the 440-6 head pipes. Mine went on without any problems. They cost like 106 each.
In 70 there is a different part number for one of the manifolds. I got mine off of a 70 challenger six pack. The flange had a different twist to it rather than the b body 69 stuff.
sounds like a exh leak, id get the surface straight and then put them on without a gasket as mentioned above..
the seal quite well without a gasket on the exh manifolds
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/28/08 10:40 PM
hey...make a gasket out of poster paper[white],install and run a few minutes,remove and read..nice ride.
Posted By: StandOnIt
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/28/08 11:19 PM
Man, that thing is RUINED, ya need to sell it to me REAL cheap...haha.. Yeah, thats a nice little exhaust leak ya got there. I have had them come loose on me and I have just retightened them until the gasket would "seat in", I guess the word would be. By the way, Shes a "beaut"..
Posted By: sthemi
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/28/08 11:28 PM
No gasket is needed with stock manifolds. Prepare the manifold sealing surface with a 12 in flat mill file to remove any high spots or garbage left on it.
I would take the manifold to a muffler shop and hve them braze the shaft holes for the hear riser if you are not going to use it.
Clean the head sealing surface and bolt it up.
Posted By: monoptn
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/28/08 11:29 PM
"Could be also a leak where the head pipe connects to the right exhaust manifold."
I fixed mine with this. At first, I would have sworn it was a lifter. I decided to try exhaust leak first, and this is what fixed it. I put a new gasket in where the pipe meets the manifold and that cured it.
Posted By: SCATPK
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 01:22 AM
Are you sure one of the lifters is not making contact with the valve cover? Look inside the cover and look for a mark.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 03:20 AM
Yes, I verified that I was not getting contact between rocker arms and cover...although I was convinced by the sound I was!
Pulled the manifold off and I had oil in #8 port area...running the car with the valve cover off spewed plenty of oil in this area, and it found its way into the manifold. The headpipe+Spacer flange connection didnt look good either. I'm waiting an another RH manifold and will update with results next week once I can get the thing back together. Really appreciate the help thus far, and keep the opinions coming!
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 04:13 AM
Maybe the heat riser valve in the manifold? Try holding a screw driver against the valve so it dosen't flop around (usually too hot to just grab.)
It din't sounds like the noise was from the bell housing, but on automatics I have has flexplate bolts scrape the cover when the wrong converter bolts were used (the bolt heads were not the correct thin style.)
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 11:58 AM
No riser...and no dust shield....went through the TC bolts hitting cover routine years ago! another pain to locate for sure! Thanks for the input though.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 12:20 PM
You know, these Mr Gasket gaskets don't line up well at all with the ports. Their port openinga are too large. There is very little coverage at all at the Tops of the ports.
When talking "no gasket", is it generally agreed that I should use a "a little" copper RTV applied to the manifold prior to bolting up?
and I am assuming that Headpipe to manifold gasket(s) are required. I don't go "no gasket here, do I?
Posted By: UCUDANT
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 12:32 PM
To find a suspected exhaust leak have a friend hold a rag over that tail pipe and listen for the sound to get louder.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:06 PM
Quote:
and I am assuming that Headpipe to manifold gasket(s) are required. I don't go "no gasket here, do I?
correct, gaskets are needed there.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:11 PM
I have used the tin covered gasket that comes in the Felpro gasket sets, with no sealer, with great success AFTER having the manifold surfaced , if its NOT flat BEFORE you bolt in on it's not going to seal well.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:24 PM
John:
Are you talking about the gaskets with the aluminum looking perforated like look? I used these with the same manifold in the past and didn't have this issue. It was with different heads, however, but these heads were very straight and clean and well-prepped from what I thought when I got them. Like I said above, I am not impressed with how these sure seal gaskets line up with the ports.
Posted By: Fury Fan
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:25 PM
Quote:
You know, these Mr Gasket gaskets don't line up well at all with the ports. Their port openinga are too large. There is very little coverage at all at the Tops of the ports.
When talking "no gasket", is it generally agreed that I should use a "a little" copper RTV applied to the manifold prior to bolting up?
and I am assuming that Headpipe to manifold gasket(s) are required. I don't go "no gasket here, do I?
I have found that most of the brands of copper header flange gaskets do not line up with the ports, most of them have holes that are too big - this is a problem with a small-primary header, but should not be as big a deal with a manifold. Can't comment on fiber gaskets, haven't used any for 15 years but OEM-sized gaskets should be OK?
I have had good luck installign manifolds with no gaskets or RTV. I'd say the copper RTV is optional, if you have some on-hand give it a try, you've already had the manifold off so it's a 20-min job to R&R it. If you still have a leak give the RTV a try.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:31 PM
Quote:
John:Are you talking about the gaskets with the aluminum looking perforated like look?
YES. I had a problem with those with a SB as there are 2 different sizes offered(head to ex man) & I had the wrong ones. Once I got the correct ones problem solved.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:37 PM
I just went to Summit and here is how they list:
Fel-Pro
Port Ht 1.33
Port Width 1.84
Ultra Seal
Ht 1.48
Wt 1.78
That's a pretty substantial difference in height. These Mr Gasket port holes seem too large in the height direction when laying them down on the stock manifold. There was almost NO material covering the top of all of the ports at all. You can see the carbon lines on the manifold along the tops of each port....and it's right at (or maybe past!) the edge of the ports. Not Good.
BTW: I have used this mani for 5 or 6 years....this is really the first time I've had serious issues with it. Laying a straight edge over the ports, it sure seems pretty straight to me. I didnt get the feeler gauges out, but eyeing it up, I can't say this POS is warped to a point that it wouldn't give me a decent seal.
Posted By: RapidRobert
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 02:47 PM
Quote:
I There was almost NO material covering the top of all of the ports at all. You can see the carbon lines on the manifold along the tops of each port....and it's right at (or maybe past!) the edge of the ports. Not Good.
That's what I had carbon tracks from the wrong gaskets. I dont know about warpage but when I got the ports covered that took care of it.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 03:08 PM
Quote:
I just went to Summit and here is how they list:
Fel-Pro
Port Ht 1.33
Port Width 1.84
Ultra Seal
Ht 1.48
Wt 1.78
That's a pretty substantial difference in height. These Mr Gasket port holes seem too large in the height direction when laying them down on the stock manifold. There was almost NO material covering the top of all of the ports at all. You can see the carbon lines on the manifold along the tops of each port....and it's right at (or maybe past!) the edge of the ports. Not Good.
BTW: I have used this mani for 5 or 6 years....this is really the first time I've had serious issues with it. Laying a straight edge over the ports, it sure seems pretty straight to me. I didnt get the feeler gauges out, but eyeing it up, I can't say this POS is warped to a point that it wouldn't give me a decent seal.
the ultra seals are a HEADER gasket to be used more for ported heads .
Yes I was talking about that perforated steel looking gaskets .
forget the straight edge put it on a flat surface and have a light behind it so you will be able to see light under it if it's lifter off the surface , will be most noticable under the center of it .
what heads are you using ? you gasket should fit the manifold opening , what is the size of the actual port on the head ?
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 03:28 PM
Stock port 915 heads.
Mani port = 1.275" High
head port...tough to get verniers in there accurately, but around 1.100" or so. Non-ported.
Posted By: cornucopia
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis - 08/29/08 07:15 PM
exhaust leak...
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 08/29/08 07:17 PM
Quote:
Stock port 915 heads.
Mani port = 1.275" High
head port...tough to get verniers in there accurately, but around 1.100" or so. Non-ported.
i assume the head surface is in good condition and not a bumpy from heavy rust ? i have a set of 906's i deemed junk because of this very thing
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 09/02/08 12:55 PM
John, the heads were in excellent condition all around. They were prepped by a professional head shop, and to the best of my ability, do not appear to be the source of this problem.
Still waiting on manifolds, so nothing else to report.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 09/15/08 01:31 PM
Just wanted to close this thread out.
Installed a different manifold, and I opted to go with Fel-Pro Gasket, Dry. Noise is gone.
I still have a slight, small leak at the headpipe, but as I said, I found a small hole in the weld at the headpipe flange. The "noise" is 90-95% gone, thus I can start worrying about something else now. Thanks to everyone who chimed in.
Posted By: moper
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 09/15/08 03:54 PM
One additional note... Yeah, that was exhaust noises, and the manifolds are about 50/50 as to whether they seal or not. I use the fel pro stock ones, and most importantly regardless of manifold or header, or gasket type, you need to torque them fromt eh center two out. Never the ends in, or from one end to the other. If the manifold is a little warped, tightening from the center may help pull it flat.
Posted By: InViolent
Re: Engine Noise Diagnosis *UPDATED WITH VIDEO!* - 09/16/08 01:26 PM
Moper:
Right, like anything else, center to out for tightening sequence. I can't really get a torque wrench in there, and the nuts are listed at 30 ft-lbs...but I'll keep on eye on them, and re-tighten after the thing runs a bit more.