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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087085
10/04/11 01:04 PM
10/04/11 01:04 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Most of todays restorations are painting everything way more than the factory did based on survivors. Each car is different based on who painted on any given day and which factory. Lynch Road paint it all, St. Louis partially painted.
Engines were built, painted and shipped to the factory. They were not painted at the vehicle assembly plant. Companies like the Chrysler Mound Road Facility was responsible for engine assembly and paint. Secondary bolt on items like the alternators, etc... would have been handled by the factory.
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087087
10/04/11 02:32 PM
10/04/11 02:32 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,448
It's a dry heat
gtx6970
Too Many Posts
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,448
It's a dry heat
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Quote:
It goes back to who can provide proof of how they were painted, so far no one. We only have survivors to speculate on
Which is exactly why there is and always has been such a strong emphasis on using the car being restored as the guide in the 1st place.
Anything else is just repetition - replication of something it's not.
And 'IF' thats not feasable, follow the established standard/norm
Ok,,,,,,,  Flame suit on
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087089
10/04/11 03:50 PM
10/04/11 03:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,161
DELAWARE
TONY_DAGOSTINO
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,161
DELAWARE
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Quote:
Also the automatic trans was attached
are you sure?
ive seen engine color on the back of original paint engines before and i dont recal seeing overspray or tapelines on transmissions
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: gtx6970]
#1087093
10/06/11 02:51 AM
10/06/11 02:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,525
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
OP
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Quote:
Quote:
It goes back to who can provide proof of how they were painted, so far no one. We only have survivors to speculate on
Which is exactly why there is and always has been such a strong emphasis on using the car being restored as the guide in the 1st place.
Anything else is just repetition - replication of something it's not.
And 'IF' thats not feasable, follow the established standard/norm
Ok,,,,,,, Flame suit on
Bill how did the "established norm" come to be and who "established" it? I go back to the Lynch Road Fender tags and how for the longest time the "established norm" was that ALL fender tags were bent, painted completely on the top and most of the bottom, and one screw was left unpainted.  We now know that the Lynch Road Fender Tags were not done to the "established norm" and I have hundreds of photos to prove that but we won't go there 
My question would be if there was no "established norm" for the negative battery cable and the only thing that was known was that it was bolted to the engine at the intake manifold, under the throttle return spring bracket when the engine was painted how much paint do you think it would have on it? It seems to me that everyone has to take extra effort to get just the right "established norm" paint on it, if you don't make that extra effort to hold it away, cover it or not install it until after painting it will have more paint on it than the current "established norm". All of the survivor photos I have of the negative battery cable have a lot more paint on them than the "established norm". I'll agree that some parts of the negative battery cable are missing paint but everyone of them is painted end to end. I just think the "established norm" needs to be looked into....again. Just my  and I accepted the "established norm" for many years because that's what I was told and read how they should be but when I started looking at the survivor photos and photos that are being provided by other members it seems there are quite a few painted more than the "norm".
Survivor '69 Super Bee missing paint but still painted at the clamp and engine:
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: A12]
#1087094
10/06/11 09:06 AM
10/06/11 09:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,448
It's a dry heat
gtx6970
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,448
It's a dry heat
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Mike,
IMO, there is no 'standard' in regards to the cable overspray. OTHER THAN, Yes they had paint on them.
They were painted by humans that may or may not have been to concerned with how it looked when it left his/her station.
As an example, looking at how it was attached some were attached and pointing forward and some were attached causing it to lay on top of the valve cover , thus leaving a bare area on top of the valve cover and IMO these should be the ones which would most likely get more paint on them because the entire cable would be in the path when the engine assy was painted.
As opposed to the cable pointing forward would have the lead end hanging lower and 'may not' be in the path of the paint gun. Either way and like mentioned earlier the chances the cable would be painted all the way around is 'extremly' unlikely.
Which is why I restate use the car in question as the guide - anything else is a guess
That said, as I stated earlier, I would not have docked points for the cable paint - provided it had paint on it AND it did not look manipulated.
I've not seen the car , I don't know the judges nor was I there when the car was judged.
So I am not qualified to say if/why said cable had points docked OR the reasoning behind the points deduction.
And anyone who knows me, already knows I would rather not guess.
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: gtx6970]
#1087095
10/06/11 10:11 AM
10/06/11 10:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,252
Sebring, Florida
Mopar Grandpa
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,252
Sebring, Florida
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Maybe MikeR is asking: is there some printed literature out there that states what the "accepted norms" are for the folks that haven't been in the hobby for years and years and don't run in the same circles as the judges. For instance; what is the accepted norm for sound deadner on the 1/4's? What is the accepted norm for exhaust manifold coatings? If there were some printed standards that would help a lot.
Last edited by Mopar Grandpa; 10/06/11 10:34 AM.
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: Mopar Grandpa]
#1087096
10/06/11 10:37 AM
10/06/11 10:37 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,448
It's a dry heat
gtx6970
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,448
It's a dry heat
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Quote:
Maybe MikeR is asking: is there some printed literature out there that states what the "accepted norms" are for the folks that haven't been in the hobby for years and years and don't run in the same circles as the judges.
Dave Wise put out a judging manual a few years ago. Highlighting most if not all the judged areas on a Mopar muscle car.
Is it perfect? ABSOLUTELY not. It's a guide not a bible.
MY problem with anything in print is once put in black and white it's no longer a guide , it becomes the standard.
Not to pick on the writer but I'm going to use Paul Herds books as an example, they are full of errors but because it's in print it's been used dozens if not hundreds of times as references on how to restore a mopar
But because 'someone' read it in a 'restoration manual' it has to be the final word. Which I seriously doubt was/is the writers original intention.
I can't stess enough, whether this is your 1st resto or your hundredth ,,, research,,, research research.
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087098
10/06/11 12:11 PM
10/06/11 12:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,636
Nashville, TN
MOPARMIKE69
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,636
Nashville, TN
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Since the article seems to be hard to read here is what it says.
When Mike disassembled the car and removed the tag, there was primer underneath. That told Mike that the tag was in place when the body was painted. So, he installed the tag and painted the car. Then Mike read the article in Mopar Action about the original 1500 mile 6bbl. Road Runner, and that tag was natural. So Mike calls noted numbers guru, Galen Govier, who said that when the B-body was on the line, they pulled the tag, restamped it and and then put it inside the car, so the tag should be natural. The screws should be natural. So Mike pulls the tag off, strips off the paint to make it natural metal and gives it an overspray black finish. Then he screws it to the fender.
So then Mike goes to the Mopar Nats and enters the councours judging. The first thing the judge tells him is he has to paint his fender tag. So Mike pulls the tag back off then repaints it body color.
Fast forward 20 years. The tag is now concidered " the norm" to have come natural in most cases. BUT I would still paint the tag today with pictures of how the car was originally since that was without a doubt, the way that car came from the factory!
69 Road Runner vert
69 GTX hard top
70 Road Runner 4 speed
70 Hemi Cuda vert
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087099
10/06/11 12:20 PM
10/06/11 12:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Yep the only TRUE guide is either the car itself, or failing that similar survivors.......and the biggest mistake would be to assume that just because one survivor is done a certain way, they all were. Try to find as many survivors as you can, preferrably the same plant and in as close a time period as possible..... ...oh and FWIW, my Lynch Rd. fender tag was unbent.....but had good paint coverage.  Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087100
10/06/11 01:25 PM
10/06/11 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,525
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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Quote:
MikeR you say that the established norm for a long time was bent tag on Lynch road cars. You even sent me a PM about that. I never ever saw anything about that. The only discussions were about whether the tag on a 6bbl car was painted or not. Here is the Mopar Action article on my car about that from 1992. Do you have something about that you can share? Maybe it was discussed on Moparts, but in print and from the experts no one ever said they were bent that I have seen, and if you have something on that it would be fun to see.
When this A12 owner asked on here in the Moparts restoration forum how his A12 fender tag should be a few years ago there was a little discussion  about that and I told him that regardless of how much paint it should NOT be bent and both screws should NOT be painted...well I got put in my place by someone saying the "established norm" was like the attached photo and that I could ask any of the list of judges provided (Paul's name was part of that list) and they would back that statement up. Here's how this owner's A12 fender tag ended up by the "established norm" that he was given right here on MOPARTS and that BTW even by your article (thanks for posting that BTW   ) should have NEVER been like this: BENT and one SCREW PAINTED
MikeR
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#1087101
10/06/11 01:50 PM
10/06/11 01:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,525
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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Too Many Posts
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Quote:
Since the article seems to be hard to read here is what it says.
When Mike disassembled the car and removed the tag, there was primer underneath. That told Mike that the tag was in place when the body was painted. So, he installed the tag and painted the car. Then Mike read the article in Mopar Action about the original 1500 mile 6bbl. Road Runner, and that tag was natural. So Mike calls noted numbers guru, Galen Govier, who said that when the B-body was on the line, they pulled the tag, restamped it and and then put it inside the car, so the tag should be natural. The screws should be natural. So Mike pulls the tag off, strips off the paint to make it natural metal and gives it an overspray black finish. Then he screws it to the fender.
So then Mike goes to the Mopar Nats and enters the councours judging. The first thing the judge tells him is he has to paint his fender tag. So Mike pulls the tag back off then repaints it body color.
Fast forward 20 years. The tag is now concidered " the norm" to have come natural in most cases. BUT I would still paint the tag today with pictures of how the car was originally since that was without a doubt, the way that car came from the factory!
This is starting to make no sense with some of the "how it came" being how it should be to some degree for me at least. I have photos of my A12 when it was fairly new and it has GTX trim on it, I know darn well that if I restore it with GTX trim on it I'm going to get points taken away for "not the established norm". I also have a numbers matching second owner '69 GTX and I measured the exact locations of the GTX trim clip holes and the number of holes on each side and guess what they are EXACTLY in the same place and the EXACT same number of holes......now do you think any judge will believe me even with photo documentation and the info from the '69 GTX that GTX trim was really on my A12 road runner from new? I don't think so Every year we learn more and more about how different plants did things in one way or another and why those findings can't be updated and documented I just don't understand??????? To this day you even proved that what has been known for 20 years about Lynch Road Fender tags is not being questioned!
Oh and I'd bet I'd get wacked for a rear fender mounted radio antenna if I didn't have paper work or photos to prove that's how it was done by Chrysler back in June of 1969.
MikeR
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: Mopar Grandpa]
#1087103
10/06/11 02:51 PM
10/06/11 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,525
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
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Quote:
Oh and I'd bet I'd get wacked for a rear fender mounted radio antenna if I didn't have paper work or photos to prove that's how it was done by Chrysler back in June of 1969.
MikeR
Well where else are you going to tie your racoon's tail? Rear view mirror had the fuzzy dice so no room there.
But a question just out of curiousity; in the picture of the white fender tag shouldn't the crease in the tag be between the painted screw and the 9? Looks like the crease is on the wrong side unless I'm not seeing it correctly.
The antenna was moved to the rear on some A12's because of the radio interference from the engine and lack of shielding by the fiberglass hood on the A12......same reason the T/A and AAR already had the antenna on the rear the next year from what they overlooked in '69 on the A12's. They should have looked at the Vette's and figured that one out
MikeR
The crease is correct, well if it wasn't on a Lynch Road tag , because "from what I've read"  the tag was mounted with one screw in Body-in-White then bent up to allow the area under the fender tag to be painted (along with both sides of the tag and one screw) and then the tag is bent back down after painting. An unpainted screw is installed to hold it in place.
MikeR
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Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
[Re: TONY_DAGOSTINO]
#1087104
10/06/11 04:36 PM
10/06/11 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,058
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,058
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
So, were the auto transmissions masked off?
or did they get alot of overspray?
Were automatic transmissions assembled at the same plant as the engines?
For the record the original tag to my 69 Bee built at Lynch rd. is not bent , can't comment on the paint aspect as I didn't pay attention to that when the car was unrestored under the hood .
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