Moparts
Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED
Posted By: A12
Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 03:02 AM
Want to continue this "discussion" over here in the Restoration Forum because this is where it belongs IMO. There's a thread over in General about judging and how a negative battery cable was considered to be painted too much and I'll be honest when I first saw it I thought the same thing. I started to look at archive photos I have of mostly A12 survivors or A12's that had original negative battery cables and they were ALL painted engine color (IMO) from one end to the clamp and in a few cases it appeared the clamp had been painted at one time too.
Here is the link starting at the page where I posted some of the photos I have
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0&fpart=5 and you can see that the negative cable(s) "appear" to be painted full length or at least that's what I'm seeing.
Now here is a photo of a just painted engine and you can see the negative battery cable hanging there and if it was in that position or even "stuffed into the water pump inlet/outlet" according to one member's comment, IMO the painter would have to take extra effort to NOT paint it entirely while spraying the engine. You guys that have painted engines with the negative battery cable hanging there did you have to take precautions to not get paint on the cable by moving it or even covering it??
MikeR
Posted By: LimeliteAero
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 04:32 PM
Quote:
, IMO the painter would have to take extra effort to NOT paint it entirely while spraying the engine.
no more effort than that used to not paint the entire exhaust manifolds. 
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 04:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
, IMO the painter would have to take extra effort to NOT paint it entirely while spraying the engine.
no more effort than that used to not paint the entire exhaust manifolds.
Does anyone have any photos from the engine plant or the car assembly line of an engine that wasn't started showing the exhaust manifolds not painted completely I would think the paint would burn off fairly quickly once the engine is running. Again who set this standard, just asking?
I've posted survivor photos of negative battery cables that are completely painted...I need someone to post survivor photos of negative battery cables that are only partially painted to substantiate that side of the discussion. The ball is in the other court at the moment 
MikeR
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:00 PM
The cable probably wasn't even thought about when painting the engine. It was bolted to the block and got whatever paint coverage that happened to be in the way of painting the engine. Look at the manifold in the picture. It is sitting right next to the valve cover. The valve cover has heavy paint coverage but the top of the exhaust manifold is almost bare of any paint. If these parts are painted on the engine why does everyone paint them off of the engine but try to make it look as if they were painted on the engine?
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:30 PM
Quote:
The cable probably wasn't even thought about when painting the engine. It was bolted to the block and got whatever paint coverage that happened to be in the way of painting the engine. Look at the manifold in the picture. It is sitting right next to the valve cover. The valve cover has heavy paint coverage but the top of the exhaust manifold is almost bare of any paint. If these parts are painted on the engine why does everyone paint them off of the engine but try to make it look as if they were painted on the engine?
This seems more the "norm" IMO but of course this is a "restoration interpretation" great job BTW IMO.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:36 PM
Any original big block negative battery cables I've seen were 99%+ painted. It looked like they had some kind of "mask" over the lead terminal end & they had a tape? line between paint & no-paint on the cable.
I've found some great color LIFE magazine '59 Chevy plant engine pics, who has the Chrysler Corp. versions?
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:43 PM
more paint
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:44 PM
less masking
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:45 PM
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:46 PM
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:46 PM
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 05:47 PM
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 06:04 PM
And a painted exhaust manifold after being run....for who knows how long, but I'm guessing from the looks of the rest of the engine not too long
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/03/11 06:06 PM
Neat pictures. They don't prove the logistics for a Chrysler but they do show how the manifolds were painted just as heavy as the components they were bolted to.
Posted By: LimeliteAero
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 01:37 PM
MikeR
In the first pic you posted, How did the engine especially the valve cover get that much coverage and shine without really hosing down the exhaust manifold? Ive done a good bit of squirting and I dont know how you did that.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 03:54 PM
The first posted picture has not painted the entire exhaust manifold, it should be just like the chevy factory pictures show. The fuel line on the fuel pump wasn't painted and neither were the motor mounts. Also the automatic trans was attached and the bell housing was also attached on manual cars when it was painted.
No one has as of today provided factory proof of if the cable was inserted into the water pump outlet or masked off and hanging. Based on original cars I have seen, most are from lynch road and have more of the cable painted than other factories. AKA wing cars and 6 paks.
Most of todays restorations are painting everything way more than the factory did based on survivors. Here is a pic of a Roger Gibson resto. Not much paint there.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 03:58 PM
Quote:
Quote:
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, IMO the painter would have to take extra effort to NOT paint it entirely while spraying the engine.
no more effort than that used to not paint the entire exhaust manifolds.
Does anyone have any photos from the engine plant or the car assembly line of an engine that wasn't started showing the exhaust manifolds not painted completely I would think the paint would burn off fairly quickly once the engine is running. Again who set this standard, just asking?
I've posted survivor photos of negative battery cables that are completely painted...I need someone to post survivor photos of negative battery cables that are only partially painted to substantiate that side of the discussion. The ball is in the other court at the moment
MikeR
Already posted it and you mis-read it as being painted. There isn't any paint on the end of this cable on a 6000 mile original super bird.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 03:59 PM
None on the end of this survivor bee
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 04:04 PM
But the cable on a 5600 mile 6 pak bee in my friends garage along with a survivor superbird are completely painted.
Each car is different based on who painted on any given day and which factory. Lynch Road paint it all, St. Louis partially painted. Generally
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 04:07 PM
Ground strap by Rich Berlisk, partially painted
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 05:04 PM
Quote:
Most of todays restorations are painting everything way more than the factory did based on survivors. Each car is different based on who painted on any given day and which factory. Lynch Road paint it all, St. Louis partially painted.
Engines were built, painted and shipped to the factory. They were not painted at the vehicle assembly plant. Companies like the Chrysler Mound Road Facility was responsible for engine assembly and paint. Secondary bolt on items like the alternators, etc... would have been handled by the factory.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 06:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Most of todays restorations are painting everything way more than the factory did based on survivors. Each car is different based on who painted on any given day and which factory. Lynch Road paint it all, St. Louis partially painted.
Engines were built, painted and shipped to the factory. They were not painted at the vehicle assembly plant. Companies like the Chrysler Mound Road Facility was responsible for engine assembly and paint. Secondary bolt on items like the alternators, etc... would have been handled by the factory.
Good point. It goes back to who can provide proof of how they were painted, so far no one. We only have survivors to speculate on.
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 06:32 PM
Quote:
It goes back to who can provide proof of how they were painted, so far no one. We only have survivors to speculate on
Which is exactly why there is and always has been such a strong emphasis on using the car being restored as the guide in the 1st place.
Anything else is just repetition - replication of something it's not.
And 'IF' thats not feasable, follow the established standard/norm
Ok,,,,,,, 
Flame suit on
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 07:04 PM
Exactly!
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 07:50 PM
Quote:
Also the automatic trans was attached
are you sure?
ive seen engine color on the back of original paint engines before and i dont recal seeing overspray or tapelines on transmissions
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 08:17 PM
i may have corrected myself here
heres a pic of an original paint engine,
it has plenty of paint on the back of engine, but it looks like it all came through the starter hole
.JPG "6856183-REAROFENGINE(Medium).JPG")
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 08:19 PM
So, were the auto transmissions masked off?
or did they get alot of overspray?
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/04/11 08:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Also the automatic trans was attached
are you sure?
ive seen engine color on the back of original paint engines before and i dont recal seeing overspray or tapelines on transmissions
I have never seen tape lines but plenty of overspray
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 06:51 AM
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It goes back to who can provide proof of how they were painted, so far no one. We only have survivors to speculate on
Which is exactly why there is and always has been such a strong emphasis on using the car being restored as the guide in the 1st place.
Anything else is just repetition - replication of something it's not.
And 'IF' thats not feasable, follow the established standard/norm
Ok,,,,,,, Flame suit on
Bill how did the "established norm" come to be and who "established" it? I go back to the Lynch Road Fender tags and how for the longest time the "established norm" was that ALL fender tags were bent, painted completely on the top and most of the bottom, and one screw was left unpainted. We now know that the Lynch Road Fender Tags were not done to the "established norm" and I have hundreds of photos to prove that but we won't go there
My question would be if there was no "established norm" for the negative battery cable and the only thing that was known was that it was bolted to the engine at the intake manifold, under the throttle return spring bracket when the engine was painted how much paint do you think it would have on it? It seems to me that everyone has to take extra effort to get just the right "established norm" paint on it, if you don't make that extra effort to hold it away, cover it or not install it until after painting it will have more paint on it than the current "established norm". All of the survivor photos I have of the negative battery cable have a lot more paint on them than the "established norm". I'll agree that some parts of the negative battery cable are missing paint but everyone of them is painted end to end. I just think the "established norm" needs to be looked into....again. Just my 
and I accepted the "established norm" for many years because that's what I was told and read how they should be but when I started looking at the survivor photos and photos that are being provided by other members it seems there are quite a few painted more than the "norm".
Survivor '69 Super Bee missing paint but still painted at the clamp and engine:
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 01:06 PM
Mike,
IMO, there is no 'standard' in regards to the cable overspray. OTHER THAN, Yes they had paint on them.
They were painted by humans that may or may not have been to concerned with how it looked when it left his/her station.
As an example, looking at how it was attached some were attached and pointing forward and some were attached causing it to lay on top of the valve cover , thus leaving a bare area on top of the valve cover and IMO these should be the ones which would most likely get more paint on them because the entire cable would be in the path when the engine assy was painted.
As opposed to the cable pointing forward would have the lead end hanging lower and 'may not' be in the path of the paint gun. Either way and like mentioned earlier the chances the cable would be painted all the way around is 'extremly' unlikely.
Which is why I restate use the car in question as the guide - anything else is a guess
That said, as I stated earlier, I would not have docked points for the cable paint - provided it had paint on it AND it did not look manipulated.
I've not seen the car , I don't know the judges nor was I there when the car was judged.
So I am not qualified to say if/why said cable had points docked OR the reasoning behind the points deduction.
And anyone who knows me, already knows I would rather not guess.
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 02:11 PM
Maybe MikeR is asking: is there some printed literature out there that states what the "accepted norms" are for the folks that haven't been in the hobby for years and years and don't run in the same circles as the judges.
For instance; what is the accepted norm for sound deadner on the 1/4's? What is the accepted norm for exhaust manifold coatings?
If there were some printed standards that would help a lot.
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 02:37 PM
Quote:
Maybe MikeR is asking: is there some printed literature out there that states what the "accepted norms" are for the folks that haven't been in the hobby for years and years and don't run in the same circles as the judges.
Dave Wise put out a judging manual a few years ago. Highlighting most if not all the judged areas on a Mopar muscle car.
Is it perfect? ABSOLUTELY not. It's a guide not a bible.
MY problem with anything in print is once put in black and white it's no longer a guide , it becomes the standard.
Not to pick on the writer but I'm going to use Paul Herds books as an example, they are full of errors but because it's in print it's been used dozens if not hundreds of times as references on how to restore a mopar
But because 'someone' read it in a 'restoration manual' it has to be the final word. Which I seriously doubt was/is the writers original intention.
I can't stess enough, whether this is your 1st resto or your hundredth ,,, research,,, research research.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 03:53 PM
Bill how did the "established norm" come to be and who "established" it? I go back to the Lynch Road Fender tags and how for the longest time the "established norm" was that ALL fender tags were bent, painted completely on the top and most of the bottom, and one screw was left unpainted. We now know that the Lynch Road Fender Tags were not done to the "established norm" and I have hundreds of photos to prove that but we won't go there
My question would be if there was no "established norm" for the negative battery cable and the only thing that was known was that it was bolted to the engine at the intake manifold, under the throttle return spring bracket when the engine was painted how much paint do you think it would have on it?
MikeR you say that the established norm for a long time was bent tag on Lynch road cars. You even sent me a PM about that. I never ever saw anything about that. The only discussions were about whether the tag on a 6bbl car was painted or not. Here is the Mopar Action article on my car about that from 1992. Do you have something about that you can share? Maybe it was discussed on Moparts, but in print and from the experts no one ever said they were bent that I have seen, and if you have something on that it would be fun to see.
There are no guides since there isn't any one expert that is agreed upon as the ultimate expert. They all disagree on certain things. The only guide we have is original cars. Some would like to have a paint by numbers book. It's not that easy. There's not one and shouldn't be one as already explained.
I quoted the only norm we have on the neg cable from your earlier post. As I have said I also do not count off for how much paint is on the cable only on the fact that it was painted and how it is attached which is documented.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 04:11 PM
Since the article seems to be hard to read here is what it says.
When Mike disassembled the car and removed the tag, there was primer underneath. That told Mike that the tag was in place when the body was painted. So, he installed the tag and painted the car. Then Mike read the article in Mopar Action about the original 1500 mile 6bbl. Road Runner, and that tag was natural. So Mike calls noted numbers guru, Galen Govier, who said that when the B-body was on the line, they pulled the tag, restamped it and and then put it inside the car, so the tag should be natural. The screws should be natural. So Mike pulls the tag off, strips off the paint to make it natural metal and gives it an overspray black finish. Then he screws it to the fender.
So then Mike goes to the Mopar Nats and enters the councours judging. The first thing the judge tells him is he has to paint his fender tag. So Mike pulls the tag back off then repaints it body color.
Fast forward 20 years. The tag is now concidered " the norm" to have come natural in most cases. BUT I would still paint the tag today with pictures of how the car was originally since that was without a doubt, the way that car came from the factory!
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 04:20 PM
Yep the only TRUE guide is either the car itself, or failing that similar survivors.......and the biggest mistake would be to assume that just because one survivor is done a certain way, they all were.
Try to find as many survivors as you can, preferrably the same plant and in as close a time period as possible.....
...oh and FWIW, my Lynch Rd. fender tag was unbent.....but had good paint coverage.
Dave
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 05:25 PM
Quote:
MikeR you say that the established norm for a long time was bent tag on Lynch road cars. You even sent me a PM about that. I never ever saw anything about that. The only discussions were about whether the tag on a 6bbl car was painted or not. Here is the Mopar Action article on my car about that from 1992. Do you have something about that you can share? Maybe it was discussed on Moparts, but in print and from the experts no one ever said they were bent that I have seen, and if you have something on that it would be fun to see.
When this A12 owner asked on here in the Moparts restoration forum how his A12 fender tag should be a few years ago there was a little discussion 
about that and I told him that regardless of how much paint it should NOT be bent and both screws should NOT be painted...well I got put in my place by someone saying the "established norm" was like the attached photo and that I could ask any of the list of judges provided (Paul's name was part of that list) and they would back that statement up. Here's how this owner's A12 fender tag ended up by the "established norm" that he was given right here on MOPARTS and that BTW even by your article (thanks for posting that BTW 
) should have NEVER been like this: BENT and one SCREW PAINTED
MikeR
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 05:50 PM
Quote:
Since the article seems to be hard to read here is what it says.
When Mike disassembled the car and removed the tag, there was primer underneath. That told Mike that the tag was in place when the body was painted. So, he installed the tag and painted the car. Then Mike read the article in Mopar Action about the original 1500 mile 6bbl. Road Runner, and that tag was natural. So Mike calls noted numbers guru, Galen Govier, who said that when the B-body was on the line, they pulled the tag, restamped it and and then put it inside the car, so the tag should be natural. The screws should be natural. So Mike pulls the tag off, strips off the paint to make it natural metal and gives it an overspray black finish. Then he screws it to the fender.
So then Mike goes to the Mopar Nats and enters the councours judging. The first thing the judge tells him is he has to paint his fender tag. So Mike pulls the tag back off then repaints it body color.
Fast forward 20 years. The tag is now concidered " the norm" to have come natural in most cases. BUT I would still paint the tag today with pictures of how the car was originally since that was without a doubt, the way that car came from the factory!
This is starting to make no sense with some of the "how it came" being how it should be to some degree for me at least. I have photos of my A12 when it was fairly new and it has GTX trim on it, I know darn well that if I restore it with GTX trim on it I'm going to get points taken away for "not the established norm". I also have a numbers matching second owner '69 GTX and I measured the exact locations of the GTX trim clip holes and the number of holes on each side and guess what they are EXACTLY in the same place and the EXACT same number of holes......now do you think any judge will believe me even with photo documentation and the info from the '69 GTX that GTX trim was really on my A12 road runner from new? I don't think so Every year we learn more and more about how different plants did things in one way or another and why those findings can't be updated and documented I just don't understand??????? To this day you even proved that what has been known for 20 years about Lynch Road Fender tags is not being questioned!
Oh and I'd bet I'd get wacked for a rear fender mounted radio antenna if I didn't have paper work or photos to prove that's how it was done by Chrysler back in June of 1969.
MikeR
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 06:03 PM
Oh and I'd bet I'd get wacked for a rear fender mounted radio antenna if I didn't have paper work or photos to prove that's how it was done by Chrysler back in June of 1969.
MikeR
Well where else are you going to tie your racoon's tail? Rear view mirror had the fuzzy dice so no room there.
But a question just out of curiousity; in the picture of the white fender tag shouldn't the crease in the tag be between the painted screw and the 9? Looks like the crease is on the wrong side unless I'm not seeing it correctly.
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 06:51 PM
Quote:
Oh and I'd bet I'd get wacked for a rear fender mounted radio antenna if I didn't have paper work or photos to prove that's how it was done by Chrysler back in June of 1969.
MikeR
Well where else are you going to tie your racoon's tail? Rear view mirror had the fuzzy dice so no room there.
But a question just out of curiousity; in the picture of the white fender tag shouldn't the crease in the tag be between the painted screw and the 9? Looks like the crease is on the wrong side unless I'm not seeing it correctly.
The antenna was moved to the rear on some A12's because of the radio interference from the engine and lack of shielding by the fiberglass hood on the A12......same reason the T/A and AAR already had the antenna on the rear the next year from what they overlooked in '69 on the A12's. They should have looked at the Vette's and figured that one out
MikeR
The crease is correct, well if it wasn't on a Lynch Road tag , because "from what I've read" the tag was mounted with one screw in Body-in-White then bent up to allow the area under the fender tag to be painted (along with both sides of the tag and one screw) and then the tag is bent back down after painting. An unpainted screw is installed to hold it in place.
MikeR
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/06/11 08:36 PM
Quote:
So, were the auto transmissions masked off?
or did they get alot of overspray?
Were automatic transmissions assembled at the same plant as the engines?
For the record the original tag to my 69 Bee built at Lynch rd. is not bent , can't comment on the paint aspect as I didn't pay attention to that when the car was unrestored under the hood .
Posted By: RoadRunnerJD
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 12:09 AM
Quote:
Maybe MikeR is asking: is there some printed literature out there that states what the "accepted norms" are for the folks that haven't been in the hobby for years and years and don't run in the same circles as the judges.
For instance; what is the accepted norm for sound deadner on the 1/4's? What is the accepted norm for exhaust manifold coatings?
If there were some printed standards that would help a lot.
It's hard to match the undercoating on the inside of the quarters or the heavy seam sealer around the trunk floor. There was no coating on the manifolds other than engine paint on the manifolds which readily burnt off and just left a residue by time the buyer picked his car up... except for the heat riser and partially on the ends of manifold studs and nuts.
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 01:11 AM
here is a pic of my unrestored 18k mile sbird
its very original, (plug wires, hoses, belts, etc)
![Attached picture 6859552-CIMG3435[1280x768].JPG](https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/6859552-CIMG3435[1280x768].JPG "6859552-CIMG3435[1280x768].JPG")
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 01:12 AM
2 orig take off neg cables
![Attached picture 6859555-CIMG3437[1280x768].JPG](https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/6859555-CIMG3437[1280x768].JPG "6859555-CIMG3437[1280x768].JPG")
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 01:17 AM
Quote:
here is a pic of my unrestored 18k mile sbird
its very original, (plug wires, hoses, belts, etc)
Tony, that 1" (approx?) unpainted area is that tape or actually not painted? That almost seems identical to the one in another photo.....oops I mean this one.
Thanks for posting the photos
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 01:34 AM
thats an unpainted area
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 02:10 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe MikeR is asking: is there some printed literature out there that states what the "accepted norms" are for the folks that haven't been in the hobby for years and years and don't run in the same circles as the judges.
For instance; what is the accepted norm for sound deadner on the 1/4's? What is the accepted norm for exhaust manifold coatings?
If there were some printed standards that would help a lot.
It's hard to match the undercoating on the inside of the quarters or the heavy seam sealer around the trunk floor. There was no coating on the manifolds other than engine paint on the manifolds which readily burnt off and just left a residue by time the buyer picked his car up... except for the heat riser and partially on the ends of manifold studs and nuts.
I realize how the exhaust manifolds came from the factory but what I was asking was what is the "accepted norm" for these manifolds in todays judging circles. I've seen a lot of them with the gray (Eastwood type) coatings which look nice but aren't anywhere close to original.
Posted By: RoadRunnerJD
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 04:50 AM
I doubt if there is an answer to a norm for exhaust manifold finishes? I like the way Mike's look in the first post. I'd like to know what gets points or loses points at the Nats? I think for platinum judging, it is painted completely with engine color? There is likely different standards for different caliber of judging. It may come down to personal preferences in some cases. When I judge for standards of originality, I don't dock for clean, unpainted, natural finish manifolds even if they have a little blush of surface rust. Manifolds completely painted engine color are OK too. I do look for engine color
on the heat riser if the manifolds are not completely painted
engine color. I don't dock or give coated cast iron looking
manifolds any extra points but they may lose points if they
are a bad color, the coating is too thick, rust showing
through, no engine paint on heat riser, etc.
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 12:39 PM
Quote:
here is a pic of my unrestored 18k mile sbird
its very original, (plug wires, hoses, belts, etc)
Lynch Road car?
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 01:44 PM
Quote:
Quote:
here is a pic of my unrestored 18k mile sbird
its very original, (plug wires, hoses, belts, etc)
Lynch Road car?
Pretty sure all of the Superbirds were Lynch Road built road runners then sent to Creative Industries to be converted/finished........so you noticed the fender tag 
MikeR
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 02:03 PM
yes, lynch road
my understanding of lynch road data tags are that they were hung in the windshield opening by a unfolded paper clip and got whatever overspray from the car paint on them
i have found unfolded paper clips under the carpeting of original lynch road cars that ive taken apart
i cannot swear that this is how it was done, but it is consistant with what ive seen on data tags and the paper clips
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/07/11 02:21 PM
Quote:
yes, lynch road
my understanding of lynch road data tags are that they were hung in the windshield opening by a unfolded paper clip and got whatever overspray from the car paint on them
i have found unfolded paper clips under the carpeting of original lynch road cars that ive taken apart
i cannot swear that this is how it was done, but it is consistant with what ive seen on data tags and the paper clips
That's what I found from researhing this since the '90's and I've been looking for an original or NOS paper clip ever since 
If you still have it or want to bend one up like you remember it I'll bid on it on ebay if you put it on there
Some have said they were hung on the steering column support or where the inside rear view mirror would go and that's why they didn't get much paint, some even said that a vinyl roof car got even less because the roof wasn't painted I think the steering column support makes the most sense. Don't know if the cowl/dash area is one of the first thing to be finished welded so the tag is there at the beginning???
MikeR
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/08/11 12:24 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
here is a pic of my unrestored 18k mile sbird
its very original, (plug wires, hoses, belts, etc)
Lynch Road car?
Pretty sure all of the Superbirds were Lynch Road built road runners then sent to Creative Industries to be converted/finished........so you noticed the fender tag
MikeR
Yep, even with these old eyes.
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/08/11 03:13 AM
Lynch Rd 69 Fury
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/08/11 03:21 AM
70 Bee
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/08/11 03:24 AM
71 Charger
Posted By: Paul Jacobs
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/08/11 03:28 AM
68 HEMI
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 05:08 PM
Quote:
Tony, that 1" (approx?) unpainted area is that tape or actually not painted? That almost seems identical to the one in another photo...this one.
Quote:
thats an unpainted area
If the part number tag or whatever is wrapped around the negative ground cable (in the photo below) is the reason for the similar size unpainted area in the above photo how is it NOT painted, or was it painted at one time and the layer of paint came off 
(with all of these recent photos, maybe the accepted "norm" isn't really the "norm", someone is going to need to put up more photos of partial painted original negative cables to counter the number of fully painted cable photos posted to re-set the "norm" standard back to where it's been. Still like to know who set that standard or how it got to be the "norm".........remember this is constructive and not NEGATIVE (pun intended) 
)
MikeR
Posted By: VCODE
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 06:17 PM
To me it looks like a Hemi cable was not painted all the way up because the valve covers where covered and not painted.
My 440-4 was painted all the way to the terminal and you can see where it was hanging over the painted valve cover.
The 1" unpainted area seems to be not painted because that's where the part # tag was and fell off after time.
This is just My
Bob
Posted By: VCODE
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 06:18 PM
#2
Posted By: VCODE
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 06:19 PM
#3
Posted By: VCODE
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 06:19 PM
#4
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 08:51 PM
FROM A DAYTONA
.JPG "6866572-100_0524(Large).JPG")
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 08:52 PM
ANOTHER DAYTONA
.JPG "6866577-DSC05993(Large).JPG")
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/11/11 09:04 PM
(with all of these recent photos, maybe the accepted "norm" isn't really the "norm", someone is going to need to put up more photos of partial painted original negative cables to counter the number of fully painted cable photos posted to re-set the "norm" standard back to where it's been. Still like to know who set that standard or how it got to be the "norm".........remember this is constructive and not NEGATIVE (pun intended)
)
MikeR
Well I'm glad you were the one to mention this, had I mentioned it some folks would be jumping on me or saying I was still 
that I got a point deduction. But you do make a very good point and it is a POSITIVE point! 
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/12/11 03:12 PM
another from an A12
but i think the point is clear now, so this is the last pic ill post
.JPG "6867718-IMG_4516(Large).JPG")
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/12/11 03:25 PM
Quote:
another from an A12
but i think the point is clear now, so this is the last pic ill post
Thanks Tony for all of the photos, insight and info you posted, greatly appreciated
MikeR
Posted By: TONY_DAGOSTINO
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/12/11 03:53 PM
your welcome
moparts is great for sharing and learning!
ps
check out the data tag paint or lack there of
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/18/11 06:50 PM
Just received the current issue of Mopar Action magazine and they have featured two survivor cars that have the original negative battery cables painted almost 100%. One is the '67 Hemi Belvedere on page 12 and the other is the '71 Dodge Charger on page 54. Just some additional documentation for those that are interested.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/19/11 09:23 PM
The battery cables must be quite the point of interest these days. Here is Tony and Richard Ehrenberg checking out Dave's Challenger battery cable. The next photo is Dave with Steven Juliano, checking out the Diamante battery cable.
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/24/11 02:47 PM
Quote:
The battery cables must be quite the point of interest these days. Here is Tony and Richard Ehrenberg checking out Dave's Challenger battery cable. The next photo is Dave with Steven Juliano, checking out the Diamante battery cable.
So what was the conclusion........
MikeR
Posted By: LimeliteAero
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/24/11 05:07 PM
Quote:
#4
I guess we're to take from this picture that the cable ends were masked off? What is the second ground wire? leading down and away from the negative ground lead?
everytime I stop going into this thread I just cant stay away and resist the urge to become more confused. 
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/24/11 11:54 PM
Well it will be interesting to see what the judges do next year at the Nats if someone shows up with their cable painted all the way up to the terminal.
Be sure to take plenty of survivor pictures with you if yours is painted all the way up.
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/25/11 12:31 AM
John, my personal opinion from seeing all of these examples, and painting an engine or two and while doing so taking extra care to only paint part of the negative battery cable that the accepted norm of partially painted is not completely correct. It takes a lot more effort to only paint part of the cable then it does to paint it completely. As far as taping or masking the cable clamp end you could almost get away with placing a rolled up piece of paper about the size of a post-it note inside of the terminal hole and keep enough paint off of it to make good contact. I'd still like to know when it was determined that only part of the negative ground cable was painted when it is way more difficult to do it that way.
I would hope from now on it can be either or and for sure fully painted negative battery cables did happen and to me this seems more the norm if you have ever painted an engine.......especially being paid by the hour at union scale
Some are forgetting that your '69 road runner alone had at the least 82,000+, yes
EIGHTY-TWO THOUSAND PLUS 383 big block engines painted with a negative battery cable hanging in the way of getting paint of them. Do you really think they taped or masked the cables so they only got paint on part of the cable
MikeR
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/25/11 02:15 AM
Mike: I agree with you 100%. However, how does one know how the judging team will respond if they have been told that partially painted cables are the ONLY correct way. I personally think the judges should accept either as the "accepted norm" as it has been proven that they came both ways. And again, was there a "Specific Specification" from the factory? Probably not.
I hope the judging criteria will change next year to reflect the acceptance of the variations from the 60's and 70's so the participants have an opportunity of presenting their cars as they came from the factory, with variations. I think this can happen if they have judges that are truely experienced with MOPARS and not just a general knowledge of some classic cars.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 02:17 PM
Quote:
Mike: I agree with you 100%. However, how does one know how the judging team will respond if they have been told that partially painted cables are the ONLY correct way. I personally think the judges should accept either as the "accepted norm" as it has been proven that they came both ways. And again, was there a "Specific Specification" from the factory? Probably not.
I hope the judging criteria will change next year to reflect the acceptance of the variations from the 60's and 70's so the participants have an opportunity of presenting their cars as they came from the factory, with variations. I think this can happen if they have judges that are truely experienced with MOPARS and not just a general knowledge of some classic cars.
OMG you really are a piece of work. For the last time!
NO ONE EVER TOLD the judging team anything regarding painted cable!!!!!!!! AGAIN you say "judges" lumping all of the knowledgable judges with ONE knowledgeable judge who has a certain opinion, based on what he has seen and is on 99% of the cars that have been restored. Don't do it again! You have a beef with ONE judge, don't put all of us in your infantile generalization.
I say it AGAIN for the upteenth time. I nor any other of the judges would count off for an entirely painted battery cable. ONLY ONE GUY DID AND HE CAN DEFEND HIS DECISION BASED ON PLENTY of documentation. There is as I have already posted MANY examples of entirely painted cables and partially painted. Since all of them are different it proves that it was random when they were painted, therefore no points should be deducted for any amount of color. Only lack of color. Same as exhaust manifolds. He said "never" and he should not have said that. There you happy! Go pat yourself on the back, just don't hurt your arm.
You guys act like you just discovered the cure for cancer. All you have done is shown examples of what we already knew. If someone who is restoring a car now paints his cable entirely that's great, if only partial that's great. Paint it the way your car came! If you don not know how your car came AGAIN you are just guessing.
God for a guy who would never ever show again,(from one of your posts) you sure were proud of your Best of Show. Oh but I forgot you don't care about awards.
I am glad you decided to show the Jacobs restored car again why should everyone be denied access to the Jacobs work because you, the caretaker, can't handle the SUBJECTIVE world of car showing. I already posted the magazine article showing that even the BEST in the business once said that all A12 tags were painted, we know they weren't but I didn't take my toys and go home. And I sure as Hell didn't say "that the judges at the Nats do not know Mopars, just a general knowledge of classic cars." You are so far out of your league with a stupid statement like that.
Bring that car back next year and we will give it another best shot at being judged. No wait never mind, since you will "never show again"
I said I would not waste anymore time dealing with you. But you just made some statements that are not true so quit blowin smoke and stick to the facts.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 02:56 PM
Notice the paint that is missing in the middle of the cable and notice the paint on the manifold
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 02:57 PM
Manifold paint
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 02:58 PM
Same manifold
Posted By: DPelletier
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 04:10 PM
Quote:
He said "never" and he should not have said that.
Agreed; he made a mistake. all the 
aside, that is really the only thing that needs to be said
Dave
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 05:15 PM
Quote:
If you don not know how your car came AGAIN you are just guessing.
......as did the judges.
Every judge should be lumped together because they are all suppose to be experts in what they are doing. Whether it be 1 or 100, their authority should be exactly the same for what they are overseeing. When you put yourself in the position to be an expert then you had better be just that; an Expert. There is no excuse for someone who puts themselves in a position to judge others when they do not know what they are judging. People get fired for obtaining jobs that they are not qualified to perform. They get a position based on false pretenses and slick talk during an interview, only to be exposed as a fraud when the time comes to prove their abilities. Pseudo Judges make excuses and defend their ignorance by deflecting the attention toward the complaining participant. The bottom line is that the original poster was RIGHT. It doesn't matter if getting an award was important to him or if he chooses to ever show his car again. Trying to prove inconsistencies with his attitude does not justify the mistakes that the so called experts made while judging his vehicle.
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 05:35 PM
So MOPARMIKE69, tell me....How did the judging team for the B body Plymouths give a car a PERFECT score, no deductions at all, when the car had the wrong year wheels and radial tires? Did they BELIEVE that particular car came from the factory that way?
It appears that they didn't judge that car correctly either. Was it an oversight or intentional? Think the obvious is obvious?????
This thread was pretty informative, I'm sorry it got corrupted.
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 05:53 PM
PLEASE, PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE take the judging opinions here:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1Thanks, now back to "positive" negative (battery cable) discussions and sit back
grab a
and enjoy the show and look for the missing "Air Grabber" and check out the negative battery cable that looks.....well you decide and report back after the show
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=1969...0&FORM=LKVRMikeR
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 06:14 PM
Quote:
report back after the show
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=1969...0&FORM=LKVR
MikeR
Thanks for the neat video. I never heard the GTX refereed to as a "Gitix". It looked like the cable was painted all the way up to about 4" away from the connector head. There was about 4" of black cable showing.
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 06:25 PM
Really cool video and I especially liked the part where the guy says " this dash makes the driver feel like he's in control instead of a computer." My how things have changed.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 06:31 PM
Quote:
This thread was pretty informative, I'm sorry it got corrupted.
You corrupted it when you went back to about the Nats judging and as usual you have to keep .
And escargo... you obviously know nothing about how judging works. Sign up to be a judge I would love to give you an education!
Wow a partially painted battery cable from the day. Imagine that 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 06:43 PM
Quote:
And escargo... you obviously know nothing about how judging works.
According to your statement above, I already have exactly what it takes to be on your judging team!
Posted By: A12
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 06:59 PM
Quote:
Wow a partially painted battery cable from the day. Imagine that
Not so fast, don't be so quick to judge. That's just one person's "opinion" take a look at it from another angle and show me where it is missing 4" of orange engine paint.................
MikeR
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 07:01 PM
Quote:
Quote:
And escargo... you obviously know nothing about how judging works.
According to your statement above, I already have exactly what it takes to be on your judging team!
There you go again talking out of ignorance. The judge we have been talking about WASN'T on my team. I didn't judge that class. I don't put together any teams. I speak for myself alone. My team is me and one other guy who have forgotten more than you'll ever know about these cars. So keep showing your extreme knowledge we are all in awe.
Posted By: MOPARMIKE69
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 07:06 PM
Last night I looked at an original survivor 26,000 70 coronet. Picture I took was too dark to see , but the neg cable was entirely painted but the ground on that cable was only painted about 1/4 of the way. Try to do that with a spray gun.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 07:37 PM
Quote:
I speak for myself alone.
Which is exactly what I was basing my comments on. Evidently, you "judges" are also experts at accessing and assuming the knowledge held by people that you don't even know. That is probably part of the reason for the constant judging errors similar to the ones described in this thread. By all means, continue your lecture on the "stupid" statements being made by us peons. We're listening. 
Posted By: Mopar Grandpa
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 10/26/11 08:22 PM
Quote:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE take the judging opinions here:
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=1&vc=1
MikeR
I agree 100% which is why I apologized for your thread becoming something other than what you intended. So if your comments are not for constructive purposes please feel free to "spice up" the Mopar Nats Judging thread in the General Forum, which is where they belong IMO.
Posted By: moparcanuk
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 04/27/12 10:17 PM
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 04/28/12 03:07 AM
Sports Car Graphic magazine road test of a 340 and 318 Barracuda....
The road test cars were many times very early production cars. So they are not always the best cars to use as examples.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 04/28/12 03:09 AM
318
Posted By: clownin mopar
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 04/29/12 12:14 AM
Is that an ORANGE 340 in a 69 car?? Impossible....
One major magazine we all know it said that never happend!
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Negative Battery Cable How much of it should be PAINTED - 04/29/12 12:24 AM
Quote:
Is that an ORANGE 340 in a 69 car?? Impossible....
One major magazine we all know it said that never happend!
No.
The motor is red. The car in red too, just a little different red than the motor.
It's a picture of a picture in a 40 year old magazine. Some colors are a little off. When the red small blocks get baked from heat, the get more orange. The cooked paint on the exhaust manifolds look a more red-orange shade than the motor.
