|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1057489
12/10/14 06:05 PM
12/10/14 06:05 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871
Smyrna, South Carolina
STEFF
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,871
Smyrna, South Carolina
|
Quote:
The Hemi 6 can't do what the Grid can do. Its just that simple!
Well, then you're stuck with Jesel set up with two belt driven distributors and multiple ignition systems. BES did a custom Dual Belt Driven Distributor for one of their Engine Masters Engines, that they made a cam drive adapter that poked thru a modified stock cover and they used two totally independent ICE Ignition Systems and Coils....one for each distributor. And that's if you want to run both spark plugs. Not sure how much or if there would be a loss of power with only one plug.
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: STEFF]
#1057490
12/10/14 06:18 PM
12/10/14 06:18 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
|
From what I have researched so far, the horsepower loss is minimal because the second plug is only firing on the opposite cylinder to burn off excess fuel. Its design is for emissions more than anyting. Im not against using the MP distributor deal. Just seeing what, if anything, new was out there. The FAST deal is cool and all but I have my fuel setup of choice. Basically, I have the ignition and fuel setup that I believe is the better mousetrap. I just want the valvetrain longevity, horsepower, and weight savings of the Gen 3. The Gen 3 blocks are lighter than a 340 block and my block is WAY heavier than a 340 block!
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1057491
12/10/14 06:33 PM
12/10/14 06:33 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
|
And I realize its gonna go faster with EFI. No question. But I'm really not interested in going much more than a tenth faster than I am now. So if this thing makes 650-700 and I'm gonna lose 75 lbs which is my guestimate, then I will be completely happy. So in its most basic form, I wanna take the long block I have now and replace it. No different than going from a small block to a big block other than we have the same bell on the back of the Gen 3. Crank trigger and Terminator stay to feed the cylinders and light the fire. And thats what I'm thinking alot of guys want to do. The EFI seems like reinventing the wheel to most guys. It doesnt scare me; but, I already have a great working combination and not real interested in spending my season learning a whole new fuel and ignition combination.
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1057492
12/10/14 06:38 PM
12/10/14 06:38 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
|
Quote:
From what I have researched so far, the horsepower loss is minimal because the second plug is only firing on the opposite cylinder to burn off excess fuel. Its design is for emissions more than anyting. Im not against using the MP distributor deal. Just seeing what, if anything, new was out there. The FAST deal is cool and all but I have my fuel setup of choice. Basically, I have the ignition and fuel setup that I believe is the better mousetrap. I just want the valvetrain longevity, horsepower, and weight savings of the Gen 3. The Gen 3 blocks are lighter than a 340 block and my block is WAY heavier than a 340 block!
No, that is how they were back in 04-05 with the wasted spark arrangement. Now they both fire in the same cylinder. Also, have you weighed a Gen III block and a 340 block on the same scale personally? I have a 6.1 engine on my stand, and unfortunately I don't have a scale, but my hernia meter is saying the Gen III is closer to my 400 block than my 360 block.
Last edited by 72Swinger; 12/10/14 06:42 PM.
Mopar to the bone!!!
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1057493
12/10/14 07:04 PM
12/10/14 07:04 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
|
Guess I'm gonna get the 5.7 over here and tear it down and weigh the thing. Information on these things should not be this difficult to find and is the reason I havent done it to this point. I'm sure I am not alone in saying that.
One plug is still gonna fire the hole so I'm not terribly worried. Could it give up a few ponies? Probably but ain't gonna make 100HP difference.
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1057494
12/10/14 09:01 PM
12/10/14 09:01 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,410
Belpre,Ohio
CHAPPER
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,410
Belpre,Ohio
|
Quote:
Quote:
From what I have researched so far, the horsepower loss is minimal because the second plug is only firing on the opposite cylinder to burn off excess fuel. Its design is for emissions more than anyting. Im not against using the MP distributor deal. Just seeing what, if anything, new was out there. The FAST deal is cool and all but I have my fuel setup of choice. Basically, I have the ignition and fuel setup that I believe is the better mousetrap. I just want the valvetrain longevity, horsepower, and weight savings of the Gen 3. The Gen 3 blocks are lighter than a 340 block and my block is WAY heavier than a 340 block!
No, that is how they were back in 04-05 with the wasted spark arrangement. Now they both fire in the same cylinder. Also, have you weighed a Gen III block and a 340 block on the same scale personally? I have a 6.1 engine on my stand, and unfortunately I don't have a scale, but my hernia meter is saying the Gen III is closer to my 400 block than my 360 block.
 Both plugs fire,,,lights alcohol really well. 
If you like drag racing, support your local track.
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1057496
12/10/14 09:13 PM
12/10/14 09:13 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266
Renton Washington
Triple Threat
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,266
Renton Washington
|
Please share info as you come by it Eric, I have picked up a 5.7 as well and will use mine in a similar fashion to how you plan.
-Dustin
67 Dart, 9 second, 392" G3 Hemi
68 Barracuda 340 F/SA
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1057497
12/10/14 10:00 PM
12/10/14 10:00 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,989
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,989
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Quote:
Quote:
Guess I'm gonna get the 5.7 over here and tear it down and weigh the thing. Information on these things should not be this difficult to find and is the reason I havent done it to this point. I'm sure I am not alone in saying that.
One plug is still gonna fire the hole so I'm not terribly worried. Could it give up a few ponies? Probably but ain't gonna make 100HP difference.
I totally agree about the lack of info. I wouldn't knock anyone wanting to run only 8 plugs, if its a race motor on race fuel I doubt it would matter. The reason you mentioned about weight info is the reason I questioned your guesstimate. I think a 6.4 crate has a shipping weight of 485lbs. A long block from PWR has a shipping weight of 500lbs. I think Jegs shows a shipping weight of a DP 5.7 at like 470lbs? I know a fellow on another site weighed his 5.7 Eagle,plastic intake,no oil, no acc truck motor himself at 512lbs. Another fellow weighed his 470 BB all aluminum except block, with oil and no acc at 519lbs. Yeah the info is all over the damn place!
ALPAR lists the 6.4 weight somewhere around 550?
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: gregsdart]
#1057498
12/11/14 01:49 AM
12/11/14 01:49 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
|
Ive seen a lot of people that think or assume they are gonna get a weight break going to a new Hemi. I wish this was true, im afraid though that if you're already running an aluminum headed SB you should plan on adding about 30-50 lbs to the nose.
Mopar to the bone!!!
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1057499
12/11/14 04:02 AM
12/11/14 04:02 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
|
The info or lack thereof is maddening. I dont have an exact weight but I can basically tell you from lifting my block versus my brother's 340, there is gotta be 70 lbs difference between the two. He dang near crapped himself when he helped me lift it. Now I'm gonna have to find out. I appreciate the info that you have shared though. I'm gonna hit up my three guys that I know that are racing these things and see if any of them weighed the engines and/or cars.
Dustin, I think alot of guys are in the same boat we are. They want to know that they can take the stuff they have and drop one in their car without the learning curve of the EFI. Granted the FAST stuff is self learning; but, its a $3000 investment from what I have been told. The distributor deal is like 900 and you dont have to rewire your car.
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: gregsdart]
#1057501
12/11/14 11:02 AM
12/11/14 11:02 AM
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
|
One of my spare bare 6.1 blocks with main caps was 190-195 on two cheap bathroom scales. Probably 30 lb heavier than a 340 block and 30 lb lighter than an RB block. Lighter than an R3 I believe. For you guys afraid of computer controlled spark or fuel- look at megasquirt. EFI source is $1300 and you can run just ignition control if you want. 4 wire hookup. It offers everything the FAST does, and in some cases more. Or you could buy the box for ~$650 and wire it yourself. My megasquirt install: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=226125Launch control, 2 step, no lift shifts, nitrous control, boost control, etc. Don't know what all is available without fuel control. You can read it all here. Or just search what you're most interested in. http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/Megasquirt3_TunerStudio_MS_Lite_Reference-1.3.pdf
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Quickrunner]
#1057503
12/11/14 09:47 PM
12/11/14 09:47 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!
340RICK
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!
|
Things I'm still up in the air on: Where to get a motorplate for the front? What water pump to run? Which intake to run? Drag Pak, Ritter, etc. Get the motor plate from AEI inc. He has it for a E body get it with provision for small chivy water neck. With that motor plate you can use a Big Block Chivy electric water pump which are cheap. If you are going to use a Dominator flange I would by Muscle Motors intake. The drag pak does not have enuff meat to convert from 4150 to 4500 flange. You can mill the top off of a Drag Pak manifold and then put a 4150 to 4500 adapter on it like Barton has on his car. But this is obviously costly and is not needed for a 650 to 700 HP motor I am not familiar with your current ignition system. But I would rethink your initial plan.  The HEMI 6 from MSD has a lot features has a nice wiring harness utilizes the factory cam and crank sensor and stock front timing cover. NO need to reinvent the wheel with belt drives and a freakin dinosaur dizzy. Theres a reason NO car on the road has one  KEEP it simple Oh and as far as the weight loss deal going from my R Block W9 motor to the 6.I HEMI I saw NO weight loss. But the added weight of the wiring from the EFI to carb might have killed the slight weight loss of the 3G
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Moparmal]
#1057505
12/12/14 04:55 AM
12/12/14 04:55 AM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
Irun5snd8th
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,864
IN
|
Thanks for all the info Rick. You are the man that already took this on. Without the weight savings, I'm not sure this is the correct route for me since I really don't want to go alot faster than I am now. If I was lookin for more power, this would definitely be the route to go.
AFCO, Rons Fuel Injection sponsored Dodge Challenger
Mention Street Lethal Motorsports
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: Irun5snd8th]
#1057507
12/13/14 12:58 AM
12/13/14 12:58 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
|
Quote:
I see my thread got resurrected from the dead. I'm ready to pull the trigger. Looks like I'm going with a 5.7 block and 6.4 heads. Callies stuff on the bottom end and I'm guessin probably a custom Diamond piston.
Mr Wheatcraft informed me that Coan makes the adapter to get my glide attached to the crank.
Things I'm still up in the air on:
Where to get a motorplate for the front?
What water pump to run?
Which intake to run? Drag Pak, Ritter, etc. Gonna be running my Ron's Terminator on top of it and it has a Dominator base.
Here is my biggest quandry though. I refuse to give up the abilities of my current ignition system so I'm gonna have to run a distributor. Does anyone besides Jesel make a belt drive for the front of one of these? The Jesel one is pretty pricey ($2200 last I checked). Plus the Jesel deal has two distributors and I don't have a clue how you would fire both of them? The Mopar deal is kinda ugly with that thing sticking so f
I'm not sure if it will be much help but I am getting ready to walk through taking a junkyard 5.7 through somewhat of a similar process. It's going in an altered that came with a poweglide. I purchased a JW ultra bell (that was supposed to be here a week ago) a crank adapter and a flywheel. I will be testing a few things on our dyno as time permits. I am planning on the following tests so far:
Convert to the EFI Source ignition
Testing stock 5.7 vs. 6.1 exhaust manifolds
Testing a few different cams
testing the truck intake, 5.7 car intake and a 6.1 intake. I also have a "high rise" dual throttle body intake I may test.
I may even test different fuels (we have some MS109, C16, Q16 and E85 here at the shop)
Then the plan is to build a stout, high compression 5.7 based engine, Thitek heads, appropriate cam, drak pack intake and go racing.
|
|
|
Re: Design me a late model Hemi bracket engine
[Re: 1badx]
#1057508
12/13/14 02:29 PM
12/13/14 02:29 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
|
|
|
|
|
|
