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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Scotts71chall]
#1055017
08/17/11 10:41 PM
08/17/11 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
A very high quality engine machine shop wants $799 to assemble a Hemi short block, labor only!
Its a 572" world iron block. Includes fit cam but not deg. it.
Seems high $$$ to me?
They do alot of big inch mopar work including making there own BIG billet blocks & billet heads.
What ya think of that price, should I say some thing about it being to high?
I kind of really want them to do it instead of shipping it some where.
that's a little more than we charge, but it's not out of line for the work involved if it's done right. i would expect all critical dimensions are checked and documented. rings are file fit, etc. etc. who is supplying the parts for the build? sometimes that figures in to the cost of assembly as well.
engine assembly is usually one of those things that many people feel they can do themselves, and some can. in fact a lot of people can bolt parts together and the engine will run. now, how long it'll run and how well it'll run may be a different story altogether. 
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: dOc !]
#1055018
08/17/11 10:51 PM
08/17/11 10:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,045
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,045
Shelby Twp. Mi
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I would suggest you take the time and do it yourself. Buy the necessary tools (installers, all measuring equipment, grinding and tapping, files, picks, a few good how-to books, sealants, lubes, etc.) and now you have everything the next time you do it. And in that one time you have learned all the knowledge that the spendy 'big-time' shop knows and then applies. I don't know. I'm sorry but I think you get my point. The only way you'd know for sure is to do it successfully yourself. Hypothetically, if you sold it, the buyer is likely to pay you more for the big-name assembled engine. IMO it's even worth something IF you mention the shops name in vanity once you've patronised them.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#1055023
08/18/11 04:05 AM
08/18/11 04:05 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
The owner/instructor of the school I went to charged 1000 bucks for assembly of a long block. This was assembly and adjustment for anything that isn't in specification for the application the engine will be used for. Make sure they specify whether or not it's just assembly or if it includes adjustments at that cost.
How far and extensive does the "adjustment" phase go ?
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: dOc !]
#1055024
08/18/11 07:25 AM
08/18/11 07:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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MY machinist assembled my last short block.He also did all the machine work.Bored and plate honed it,turned polished crank,resized rods and installed new ARP bolts,drilled 1/2 inch pickup and opened up oil passages,balanced, blueprint,deck block and square,supplied a few parts, file fit rings,clearanced it,turned flywheel degreed cam and some more stuff.My total bill was under $1300.He also did the build for my sons 360 that he built.That was about 14 years ago.So it would be more now.He is one of those guys that you just trust to get it right and know that it is.Been a one man shop for 30 years plus.That and he has more work than he can handle.Most repeat customers.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Scotts71chall]
#1055027
08/18/11 10:26 AM
08/18/11 10:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
A very high quality engine machine shop wants $799 to assemble a Hemi short block, labor only!
Its a 572" world iron block. Includes fit cam but not deg. it.
Seems high $$$ to me?
They do alot of big inch mopar work including making there own BIG billet blocks & billet heads.
What ya think of that price, should I say some thing about it being to high?
I kind of really want them to do it instead of shipping it some where.
That's fair, don't complain unless you know what to check for.
Knowledge is power and $$. I bet you would have to spend $500 bucks to buy the tools needed.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1055028
08/18/11 10:46 AM
08/18/11 10:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
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Quote:
Quote:
A very high quality engine machine shop wants $799 to assemble a Hemi short block, labor only!
Its a 572" world iron block. Includes fit cam but not deg. it.
Seems high $$$ to me?
They do alot of big inch mopar work including making there own BIG billet blocks & billet heads.
What ya think of that price, should I say some thing about it being to high?
I kind of really want them to do it instead of shipping it some where.
That's fair, don't complain unless you know what to check for.
Knowledge is power and $$. I bet you would have to spend $500 bucks to buy the tools needed.
and about $100,000 buying the machinery to correct some of the items that might need to be corrected...
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Scotts71chall]
#1055030
08/18/11 12:17 PM
08/18/11 12:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
maximum entropy
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,080
organ
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the price is what ever the market will bear. is he busy? does he have a waiting list? good reputation? personally, i couldn't imagine installing a cam but not degreeing it. mocking up a new combination takes a lot of time to do properly. 799.00 is cheap, imo, if they're really doing it right.
for what is the good life if not doing things thoughtfully?
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Scotts71chall]
#1055032
08/18/11 01:11 PM
08/18/11 01:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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You want this guy to do the work, so you must trust him, BUT, you want him to negotiate his price for his years of experience, and 100,000s + dollars of machinery and so forth. Why should he? He gave you a price, that he feels he NEEDS to make to do the job. He has overhead, anticipated " trouble" with parts ( I dont care who you are, unless you've done this, you dont understand how many things you need to fix during assembly) and other wages and bills to pay. As mentioned above, at $75.00 an hour, and 10 hours labor ( which it can very easily go over), he is being fair. You dont like his price, but it is what he needs to make. Would you like to go to work today and have your boss ask you to take a lesser wage, because he " thinks" you are getting paid too much, and he'd like to save some money this week and pay you a little less ? He likes you and everything, but hey, he's trying to crunch some numbers for corporate. Each job you do he wants to negotiate a better hourly wage from you. Do you go to the grocery store, and start negotiating for a better price on apples and fruit? You get what I am saying. I dont know why it is, that engine shops are considered scoundrels and thieves if they actually charge for about 75% of the actual time they put into a build, and most usuallly go above and beyond, and give way more than they charge, and are expected to be " on call" 7 days a week for free. I could go on and on...  Pay them man, get the job done right, and trust the shop to supply you with a well built engine. Thats what you ultimatley want right or you'd be doing it yourself ? My 
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: fishy340]
#1055034
08/18/11 06:16 PM
08/18/11 06:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
do like i did,i got banged in the u know what..
I talked to a Bud down-the-street ... BBC guy .... who got  -also.
He supplied all-the-parts to this famous HP rebuilder for his dually. He was charged for ring filing/fitting ... yet the rings he supplied were std 30 over.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: fishy340]
#1055035
08/18/11 06:26 PM
08/18/11 06:26 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,113
Lost in Pooler, GA
Gumbydammit
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,113
Lost in Pooler, GA
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Compwedge, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY there.  For a performance engine build, 800 is not out of line. Checking clearances, maybe needing to get + or - .001 bearings, deburring parts, file fit and deburr rings, install cam bearings, wash the block and all the parts ( properly ), final assembly, it all adds up and when its done properly, it takes TIME. Add setting up the top end, checking valve spring pressures and installed heights, valve to guide clearance, rocker arm alignment, etc. and it should easily be another $500. I'm not an engine guy, but I am in a trade-type business. IF someone wants me to provide a service, and stand behind my work, sure no problem. Knock me down on my price, no thanks, go somewhere else. BTW, if it's a Hemi, and you are having him assemble the short block only, I don't blame him for not degreeing the cam without having the Heads. He could set it at the cam grinder's spec with out having the heads, but to me that's only part of the degree job. With the heads on he can check piston to valve clearance at different degrees of crank rotation. I wouldn't degree it without the heads either. If he did, you bolt the heads on, and fire it up only to have the valve hit the pistons, you'd come back with your head on fire accusing him of not doing his job. There's more to it than bolting stuff together. I know this, and I'm no expert. The real pros know.
Last edited by Gumbydammit; 08/18/11 06:33 PM.
I'm Gumby dammit!
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1055045
08/19/11 08:53 AM
08/19/11 08:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,045
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,045
Shelby Twp. Mi
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Quote:
800 is fair... you could ask for the cam degree job to be thrown in.
I agree...burn that bridge over $1-200. There are just some people you shouldn't do business with until their perception changes IMO. Let him take it to this other shop that is cheaper, I say. I like Todd's explanation/reasoning; How would you feel if daily, your boss adjusted (only downward) your wage based on your performance? As mentioned, I would also have the same shop do the entire assembly. But, if I were this original shop and happened across this post, I would not take the job. IMO the OP is unfamiliar with the work required. Also, you are unable to recognize accurate advice from respected/sucessful members. You even contradict yourself. I honestly hope you get this worked out and all parties win. But, again no self-respecting shop would do business with you in your current state of mind IMO.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: hemi-itis]
#1055047
08/19/11 12:11 PM
08/19/11 12:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Something smells FISHY,and I now HATE the smell of fish!! 
I agree ....verrry FISHY-itis ! 
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Scotts71chall]
#1055048
08/19/11 01:41 PM
08/19/11 01:41 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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To me it sounds a bit on the high side, but not unreasonable. It takes a few days to correctly check and assemble, mock up, tear down, correct, clean, and re-assemble an engine. The question is what exactly are they checking, and correcting? How are they fitting the cam? How many times are they torque the studs and bolts? What will they correct for free, or charge extra for? What block prep are they doing? Are they installing the frost plugs and painting the block? What oiling system, how complicated a system (If they are installing it?) I think for the price they should degree the cam too?
I can see a long block costing more. It takes a bit of time to disasemble all the valves, check spring pressures, measure and correct spring install heights, mock up rocker gear, measure for pushrods, check and correct intake manifold fit, ect. I was thinking more like 16 hours at $50/hour = $800?
Last edited by 451Mopar; 08/19/11 01:58 PM.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1055050
08/19/11 05:41 PM
08/19/11 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
To me it sounds a bit on the high side, but not unreasonable. It takes a few days to correctly check and assemble, mock up, tear down, correct, clean, and re-assemble an engine. The question is what exactly are they checking, and correcting? How are they fitting the cam? How many times are they torque the studs and bolts? What will they correct for free, or charge extra for? What block prep are they doing? Are they installing the frost plugs and painting the block? What oiling system, how complicated a system (If they are installing it?) I think for the price they should degree the cam too?
I can see a long block costing more. It takes a bit of time to disasemble all the valves, check spring pressures, measure and correct spring install heights, mock up rocker gear, measure for pushrods, check and correct intake manifold fit, ect. I was thinking more like 16 hours at $50/hour = $800?
is 50.00 bucks an hour the going rate where your located for a premier engine builder?
keep in mind that the OP is supplying the parts, so if they don't fit right, he has to pay for the correction also. those parts as delivered fitting properly is NOT the responsibility of the builder. it is his job to catch any problems and correct them though. after all, that's worth paying for, right???
Last edited by Performance Only; 08/19/11 08:34 PM.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: prostreet68]
#1055051
08/19/11 05:57 PM
08/19/11 05:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
Oyvind Mopar
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
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The assembling cost is then appx 10% of the engine value, in parts. So it is no big deal. More important is to have it properly done, and documented, and a warranty in some way against assembly errors if something bad happens at a later stage. An unskilled assembler can easily destroy your high value parts, or set them up so they self-destruct. I think that will be all the difference. Saving 2-300$ is no deal if the 10-15k$ engine fails.... If it is a bread and butter sbc, then it is a completely different story. But, you got a Hemi....Keep it living, too many Hemis went down the drain. The worst engines I work on are Hemis that have had multiple repairs/overhauls. My
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Oyvind Mopar]
#1055054
08/19/11 09:36 PM
08/19/11 09:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
But, you got a Hemi....Keep it living, too many Hemis went down the drain. The worst engines I work on are Hemis that have had multiple repairs/overhauls.
I agree 101% ....those HEMIroids are a PITA ! ...and many owners are the same way - 'specially ones in early Bee bodies with huffers on them.
I say ...charge them DOUBLE the labor-rate and let us poor-church-mice(with the lowly 413's and 440's) get-a-break on the machine work and labor rates ...
 
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: HardcoreB]
#1055056
08/20/11 12:14 AM
08/20/11 12:14 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
Quote:
800 is fair... you could ask for the cam degree job to be thrown in.
I agree...burn that bridge over $1-200. There are just some people you shouldn't do business with until their perception changes IMO. Let him take it to this other shop that is cheaper, I say.
You aren't a business guy and it shows. If the competition is charging less locally, any business owner will tell you that is what determines the price. Might not even be aware he is losing business over a small amount of $$$. That is what sways the buying public many times.
200 bucks for a degree job? Send them all to me.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055059
08/20/11 02:17 AM
08/20/11 02:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
800 is fair... you could ask for the cam degree job to be thrown in.
I agree...burn that bridge over $1-200. There are just some people you shouldn't do business with until their perception changes IMO. Let him take it to this other shop that is cheaper, I say.
You aren't a business guy and it shows. If the competition is charging less locally, any business owner will tell you that is what determines the price. Might not even be aware he is losing business over a small amount of $$$. That is what sways the buying public many times.
200 bucks for a degree job? Send them all to me.
really? so basically your saying everyone should shop by price alone?
i think some people do that, others shop by reputation and experience. which would you rather have?
Depends. You were the one that was charging a ton for stuff a few years ago and got put off by others delivering quality work for much less. So I would expect your outlook to be different, based on the explosion you had then.
I deal w/ many different industries/trades in my work. It's always possible to find people doing quality work for less than you were paying for quality work. Not everyday, but if you keep an eye out, you will find what you need. Letting the same guy charge whatever he feels just 'cause he does good work is a good way to get gouged.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: sasquatch]
#1055060
08/20/11 02:24 AM
08/20/11 02:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 781
MD
HEMI472
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 781
MD
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if the machine shop does all the machine work on the engine and you get most or all of the parts from them i dont think thay should charge that much. if they did the machine work right it should bolt togather why should they check there own work?? and i havent found one yet with a warranty. but i have heard thousands of reasons why it blowed up.and none of them was because the builder or the machine shop screwed up
Last edited by HEMI472; 08/20/11 02:39 AM.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: sasquatch]
#1055061
08/20/11 02:28 AM
08/20/11 02:28 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Anybody on here know any rich machine shop owners? Most engine builders I know are barely getting by. We are charging the same rates for machine shop labor that we were almost 20 years ago and people still hollar. Most guys do it because we love it, it sure ain't for the cash and glory.
Todd 
BARELY GETTING BY ...on $ 50.00 PLUS an hour ? ...I would like some of that "action" ...
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: dOc !]
#1055062
08/20/11 03:12 AM
08/20/11 03:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 833
MN
hemidup
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 833
MN
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Assembling an engine is a love of God and mine. Not by how much money you make in an hour. There's days I make money. There's days I break even. There's day's I loose money, just like tonight and can't sleep over a 350 hp 340 build.
Last edited by hemidup; 08/20/11 03:13 AM.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: hemidup]
#1055063
08/20/11 07:37 AM
08/20/11 07:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,065
Niles , Ohio
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My machinist isnt getting rich.He makes a good living but he isnt rich.Doc 50 an hour sounds like big $$$$$.But there are expenses that have to be paid.The guy working at Gov Motors making 30 an hour and bennys for installing an emblem is doing better.That and when you add OT he makes more than 50 an hour.Now consider the shop owner has to pay taxes on the shop equipment SS FICA health insurance retirement property insurance and taxes etc.See how much comes out of that 50 an hour.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1055064
08/20/11 09:03 AM
08/20/11 09:03 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
800 is fair... you could ask for the cam degree job to be thrown in.
I agree...burn that bridge over $1-200. There are just some people you shouldn't do business with until their perception changes IMO. Let him take it to this other shop that is cheaper, I say.
You aren't a business guy and it shows. If the competition is charging less locally, any business owner will tell you that is what determines the price. Might not even be aware he is losing business over a small amount of $$$. That is what sways the buying public many times.
200 bucks for a degree job? Send them all to me.
really? so basically your saying everyone should shop by price alone?
i think some people do that, others shop by reputation and experience. which would you rather have?
Depends. You were the one that was charging a ton for stuff a few years ago and got put off by others delivering quality work for much less. So I would expect your outlook to be different, based on the explosion you had then.
what in the world are you talking about? what kind of stuff and what explosion? have you been hanging around the fiberglass fumes with Doc or something?
speaking of Doc, you want some of the action for 50.00 an hour? go get some. i'm betting you have no idea of the investment it takes to equip a machine shop and keep the doors open. 500K will barely get you started with equipment, add the tooling and supplies, specialized hand tools, maintenance, rent, tangible taxes, employee payroll, (more taxes) electricity, chemicals, etc. etc. and see how that works out for you. you'll work the first 10 hours of the day just to meet expenses, if your lucky. at 50 .00 an hour you'll be out of business in a hurry.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055065
08/20/11 09:38 AM
08/20/11 09:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
800 is fair... you could ask for the cam degree job to be thrown in.
I agree...burn that bridge over $1-200. There are just some people you shouldn't do business with until their perception changes IMO. Let him take it to this other shop that is cheaper, I say.
You aren't a business guy and it shows. If the competition is charging less locally, any business owner will tell you that is what determines the price. Might not even be aware he is losing business over a small amount of $$$. That is what sways the buying public many times.
200 bucks for a degree job? Send them all to me.
really? so basically your saying everyone should shop by price alone?
i think some people do that, others shop by reputation and experience. which would you rather have?
Depends. You were the one that was charging a ton for stuff a few years ago and got put off by others delivering quality work for much less. So I would expect your outlook to be different, based on the explosion you had then.
what in the world are you talking about? what kind of stuff and what explosion? have you been hanging around the fiberglass fumes with Doc or something?
speaking of Doc, you want some of the action for 50.00 an hour? go get some. i'm betting you have no idea of the investment it takes to equip a machine shop and keep the doors open. 500K will barely get you started with equipment, add the tooling and supplies, specialized hand tools, maintenance, rent, tangible taxes, employee payroll, (more taxes) electricity, chemicals, etc. etc. and see how that works out for you. you'll work the first 10 hours of the day just to meet expenses, if your lucky. at 50 .00 an hour you'll be out of business in a hurry.
50 bucks an hour is nothing, we charge $65. an hour for our labor at work and we are not getting rich.
The computer guy charges 120 an hour...
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055066
08/20/11 09:42 AM
08/20/11 09:42 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
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I'll add a few more things  What about the time put into a job that just is never billed?You might have 10 hours on a particular job and only bill for 10. The other thing is that @#$%^^& phone & peeps coming in the door  You'll be lucky to get 4 hours outta an 10 hour day 
HEMI-ITIS has no cure.
My condition is fully BLOWN!!
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055067
08/20/11 11:00 AM
08/20/11 11:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 740
Anderson, IN
1969RR
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 740
Anderson, IN
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speaking of Doc, you want some of the action for 50.00 an hour? go get some. i'm betting you have no idea of the investment it takes to equip a machine shop and keep the doors open. 500K will barely get you started with equipment, add the tooling and supplies, specialized hand tools, maintenance, rent, tangible taxes, employee payroll, (more taxes) electricity, chemicals, etc. etc. and see how that works out for you. you'll work the first 10 hours of the day just to meet expenses, if your lucky. at 50 .00 an hour you'll be out of business in a hurry.
:iagree
I'll work out of my garage at home for $50.00 and hour....I own a business and have 7 employees, $50.00 an hour labor will in no way cover expenses. At $50.00 an hour, you will have all the WalMart mentality people with their "junk" beating down your doors! Then, come back complaining about everything!! I don't want that kind of work. The shop owner knows what he/she needs to make to be able to keep the doors open, so he/she will be there the next time you need them. How many times have you seen the "low ball", fly-by-nite, places come and go??? If you think shop A is too high, quit complaining, and go to shop B..he might be there the next time you need him....just my opinion. Jeff
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: 1969RR]
#1055068
08/20/11 11:54 AM
08/20/11 11:54 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
speaking of Doc, you want some of the action for 50.00 an hour? go get some. i'm betting you have no idea of the investment it takes to equip a machine shop and keep the doors open. 500K will barely get you started with equipment, add the tooling and supplies, specialized hand tools, maintenance, rent, tangible taxes, employee payroll, (more taxes) electricity, chemicals, etc. etc. and see how that works out for you. you'll work the first 10 hours of the day just to meet expenses, if your lucky. at 50 .00 an hour you'll be out of business in a hurry.
:iagree
I'll work out of my garage at home for $50.00 and hour....I own a business and have 7 employees, $50.00 an hour labor will in no way cover expenses. At $50.00 an hour, you will have all the WalMart mentality people with their "junk" beating down your doors! Then, come back complaining about everything!! I don't want that kind of work. The shop owner knows what he/she needs to make to be able to keep the doors open, so he/she will be there the next time you need them. How many times have you seen the "low ball", fly-by-nite, places come and go??? If you think shop A is too high, quit complaining, and go to shop B..he might be there the next time you need him....just my opinion. Jeff
Sorry I threw out the $50/hour rate. I was tring to say $800 to do a job that will likely take 16 hours is only $50/hour.
I think someone else quoted 10 hours at $75, but noted it can take several more hours, but most shops will stay at the quoted price and not charge the extra time or consumables used.
The interesting part is the OP is supplying "all new parts". Because they are all new, and a stroker, the parts have never been fitted, checked, clearanced, corrected, ect, so it will take longer to assemble than if it was a rebuild.
Don't get me started on how our government is unfriendly to small business. We have taxed and regulated most manufacturing jobs out of the country.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055069
08/20/11 11:58 AM
08/20/11 11:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
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800 is fair... you could ask for the cam degree job to be thrown in.
I agree...burn that bridge over $1-200. There are just some people you shouldn't do business with until their perception changes IMO. Let him take it to this other shop that is cheaper, I say.
You aren't a business guy and it shows. If the competition is charging less locally, any business owner will tell you that is what determines the price. Might not even be aware he is losing business over a small amount of $$$. That is what sways the buying public many times.
200 bucks for a degree job? Send them all to me.
really? so basically your saying everyone should shop by price alone?
i think some people do that, others shop by reputation and experience. which would you rather have?
Depends. You were the one that was charging a ton for stuff a few years ago and got put off by others delivering quality work for much less. So I would expect your outlook to be different, based on the explosion you had then.
what in the world are you talking about? what kind of stuff and what explosion? have you been hanging around the fiberglass fumes with Doc or something?
You had a full meltdown explosion on here a few years back over engine labor costs. It was pretty funny.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055070
08/20/11 01:30 PM
08/20/11 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
speaking of Doc, you want some of the action for 50.00 an hour? go get some. i'm betting you have no idea of the investment it takes to equip a machine shop and keep the doors open. 500K will barely get you started with equipment, add the tooling and supplies, specialized hand tools, maintenance, rent, tangible taxes, employee payroll, (more taxes) electricity, chemicals, etc. etc. and see how that works out for you. you'll work the first 10 hours of the day just to meet expenses, if your lucky. at 50 .00 an hour you'll be out of business in a hurry.
 Dan .....
I would agree ...if you want to equip a machine-shop with the top-of-the-line 2012 equipment it might cost a little bit MORE than that. But who does that? ... NOT the wise business person.
The shop that I have used since I have been up-here uses old-school YESTERtech equipment that may not be as speedy as the new-stuff ... but is just a good -- it just takes a better operator.
I will bet that if all his old-school equipment sold at an auction ... it might be worth 30k$ ...and that is a stretch. There have been many auction/sales listing I have seen in the past couple of years ...and even stuff on CL ...
Sure .. you can spend 500k$ ... and you can buy a new building with 20k$ a month overhead .... but most do not do that if you want to stay-in-biz.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1055071
08/20/11 01:46 PM
08/20/11 01:46 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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[quote You had a full meltdown explosion on here a few years back over engine labor costs. It was pretty funny.
you obviously have me mixed up with somebody else. 
do a search and find it...
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: B G Racing]
#1055073
08/20/11 03:12 PM
08/20/11 03:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
Engine assembly labor and machine shop labor are two different animals.One relys on precision machine work that sometimes take a lot of setup and check/recheck time,assembly and engine build time should be pretty much basic,checking the clearences and fit and putting everything together correctly.Based on the amont of machine work needed a estimate of cost can be established and quoted within reasonable+- dollars and the same with the assembly or build.The customer shouldn't have to pay for dead time or problem solving issues that arise.I personally would never have work done based on an hourly shop time,if someone is charging by time and materials in any industry someone is getting screwed.I can understand that if someone brings a job in that will only take a few hours then it would be appropiate to charge a flat hourly rate since it is taking you away from shop productive time.Both partys should have a clear understanding of the the cost before entering into an agreement and if something unexpected comes up discuss it and come to terms as how to proceed.Too many times when the job is done and the cost is over the agreed amont it's too late salvage a relationship and both partys feel cheated.With this economy any good customer and business relationship is important to maintain. 
i agree with some of what your saying here. one of the problems that can come up is when a customer brings in his own parts and drops them off, you don't really know all that might need to be done in order to be assembled correctly with the right clearances, etc. to find that out, the "assembler/ machinist" will need to spend some time measuring and mocking up those parts first. time is money.
if you have two different rates for engine assembly and engine machining, i would only ask why? basically your saying your time is worth either more, or less, depending on the job your doing. both are very detail oriented jobs when done properly and both take time. most machine shops know how much per billable hour they need to charge in order to be profitable. of course if the "assembler" is just farming out the machine work, rather than doing it in house, that's another story altogether since he'll be doing other work in his shop while someone down the road does the machining.
i do agree that communication is the key to success. without that, your customer can feel isolated, confused, irritated, etc. etc. when all is said and done.
the reality is that most parts out of the box simply don't fit the way they were intended to and require extra work.
all i can tell you is this, in my shop, if we supply the parts generally very little if any extra work is needed. if a customer buys/ supplies a bunch of low end budget parts, alll bets are off.
Bob, i know you've seen that type of stuff first hand and know just how bad some parts can be.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055074
08/20/11 04:20 PM
08/20/11 04:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
B G Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,910
Eighty Four, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Engine assembly labor and machine shop labor are two different animals.One relys on precision machine work that sometimes take a lot of setup and check/recheck time,assembly and engine build time should be pretty much basic,checking the clearences and fit and putting everything together correctly.Based on the amont of machine work needed a estimate of cost can be established and quoted within reasonable+- dollars and the same with the assembly or build.The customer shouldn't have to pay for dead time or problem solving issues that arise.I personally would never have work done based on an hourly shop time,if someone is charging by time and materials in any industry someone is getting screwed.I can understand that if someone brings a job in that will only take a few hours then it would be appropiate to charge a flat hourly rate since it is taking you away from shop productive time.Both partys should have a clear understanding of the the cost before entering into an agreement and if something unexpected comes up discuss it and come to terms as how to proceed.Too many times when the job is done and the cost is over the agreed amont it's too late salvage a relationship and both partys feel cheated.With this economy any good customer and business relationship is important to maintain.
i agree with some of what your saying here. one of the problems that can come up is when a customer brings in his own parts and drops them off, you don't really know all that might need to be done in order to be assembled correctly with the right clearances, etc. to find that out, the "assembler/ machinist" will need to spend some time measuring and mocking up those parts first. time is money.
if you have two different rates for engine assembly and engine machining, i would only ask why? basically your saying your time is worth either more, or less, depending on the job your doing. both are very detail oriented jobs when done properly and both take time. most machine shops know how much per billable hour they need to charge in order to be profitable. of course if the "assembler" is just farming out the machine work, rather than doing it in house, that's another story altogether since he'll be doing other work in his shop while someone down the road does the machining.
i do agree that communication is the key to success. without that, your customer can feel isolated, confused, irritated, etc. etc. when all is said and done.
the reality is that most parts out of the box simply don't fit the way they were intended to and require extra work.
all i can tell you is this, in my shop, if we supply the parts generally very little if any extra work is needed. if a customer buys/ supplies a bunch of low end budget parts, alll bets are off.
Bob, i know you've seen that type of stuff first hand and know just how bad some parts can be.
Dan,
Your right when it comes to a customer bringing parts especially if he has purchased them from different sources and even after someone else may have butchered them.That's when it's is most important to set down and explain to the customer the issues and the cost to correct everything.I've seen a lot of stuff purchased from E-bay and Racingjunk that is garbage to work with and a lot of wrong combo of parts that just won't work.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055075
08/20/11 08:19 PM
08/20/11 08:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
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You had a full meltdown explosion on here a few years back over engine labor costs. It was pretty funny.
you obviously have me mixed up with somebody else.
do a search and find it...
You used to go by "Dram", correct?
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1055076
08/20/11 08:38 PM
08/20/11 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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what a way to muck up a thread.
yes, i went by dram until this site got hacked some time ago. i'm waiting to see the "full meltdown explosion " your referring to.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: dOc !]
#1055077
08/20/11 11:02 PM
08/20/11 11:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 276
Temecula, Ca.
zzyzxpat
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 276
Temecula, Ca.
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That has to be the stupidest comment I have ever read "Doc". Try running a business sometime. You haven't a clue...
Pat
" The last official act of any goverment, is to loot the treasury" George Washington
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: Performance Only]
#1055078
08/21/11 12:22 AM
08/21/11 12:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,201
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
what a way to muck up a thread.
yes, i went by dram until this site got hacked some time ago. i'm waiting to see the "full meltdown explosion " your referring to.
Well, it's already starting again. Thanks for the bench racing fodder. We already got a good laugh out of you last time. The only thing mucking anything up is you and your attitude.
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Re: engine assembly labor
[Re: zzyzxpat]
#1055081
08/21/11 02:40 AM
08/21/11 02:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
That has to be the stupidest comment I have ever read "Doc". Try running a business sometime. You haven't a clue...
Pat
You-dirty-Pat ! .... WHO RATtled your cage? And how many businesses have you run? ... I ran a fiberglass business - quite successfully I might add .. for well over 20 years. And I have been involved with several in a VC way.
How about YOU ? .... flip burgers much ?
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