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Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: Cab_Burge] #1052047
08/13/11 03:20 PM
08/13/11 03:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
FastmOp Offline
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Hot Rod Ridge
Nice car. Looks and sounds good going down the strip. Keep up with everything in a log book. It's nice to see what works and what don't.

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: Cab_Burge] #1052048
08/13/11 03:53 PM
08/13/11 03:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,295
U.S.
M
moparniac Offline
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congrats


Mopar Performance
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1052049
08/13/11 04:05 PM
08/13/11 04:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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mshred  Offline OP
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Toronto
Quote:

Right now your off about 1/2 a second for the ET to MPH...
as you seen with the increase in RPM your 60' was getting
better so continue in that direction and that should
take care of the bog(small block doesnt have a ton
of torque)... once you get the best 60' with RPM then
start changing the preload on the caltracs to tweek
it in more..... you slowed the 60' by dropping the tire
pressure so you know you went the wrong way, so start
going up..... also the jetting you have should be
higher on the secondaries (about 7 jet sizes bigger
than a PV jet setting)...... keep playing





Hey Mr. P, thanks for the input!
Does the bog look like a traction issue to you, or a power issue from the engine i.e. launch rpm not high enough. It doesnt look like its smooth after the hook. But your advice was exactly my plan last night- I wanted to see just how much launch rpm would help me out before touching the bars. What about shock settings? I had them on full stiff on rebound/compression on my last pass- does that sound about right to ya?

Also, when you say jet up on the secondaries 7 jets higher than the PV, im assuming you mean power valve? If so, I have a 3.5 pv in there now, so what would 7 sizes up from that be?

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: Cab_Burge] #1052050
08/13/11 04:08 PM
08/13/11 04:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
M
mshred Offline OP
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Toronto
Quote:

I would try putting in smaller squirters to get rid of the bog, smaller will squirt longer, bigger squirts shorter, with the same pressure stick shift cars eat parts,what are you ging to feed it But they sure are fun BTW, make sure the accelerator pump arms are adjusted properly also You should have .015 to .20 of clearance left in the travel at WOT on both arms to the adjusters, IE slip a feeler gauge in between them or use the calibrated finger feel




funny you say that about the squirters. The squirters were 28's on this carb when i got it, but I had some hesitation until i upped the squirter to the 35's (this was with my old milder 340 last year). I will try different squirters though next time out. I will also double check the clearance on the accelerator pump arms, didnt even think of that

And trust me, i know all about the stickshift eating parts since last year I broke enough stuff. With the caltracs controlling any wheelhop or axle windup and the dana out back with the 4 speed up front, im not too concerned about breaking. I didnt miss any gear at all last night, and i powershifted the whole time, and the car took it like a champ....I was very pleased

Thanks to all for the compliments! All input for next time out is appreciated

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052051
08/13/11 04:09 PM
08/13/11 04:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
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Brian Hafliger  Offline
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SoCal
Quote:

Quote:

If it bogged you might need more pump shot???




pump shot as in squirter, or as in pump cam?

its got 35 squirters in it right now, primary and secondary. 3.5PV and 75 primary jet, 76 secondary jet. Used to have a 78 secondary in it, but it was running quite a bit richer with that in it. Once I get some solid AFR numbers I think I will have a better direction for jetting




Try a 4.5 PV, 74P and 80S. Then try a Blue pump cam and .031 squirters. Make sure you adjust the pump arms. Blue cam in the front and rear!
Make sure your mixture screws are about 1 1/2 to 2 turns out even if it idles a bit rich. That helps your throttle transition out also.
Looks good!!


Brian Hafliger
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052052
08/13/11 06:05 PM
08/13/11 06:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Hey Mr. P, thanks for the input!
Does the bog look like a traction issue to you, or a power issue from the engine i.e. launch rpm not high enough. It doesnt look like its smooth after the hook. But your advice was exactly my plan last night- I wanted to see just how much launch rpm would help me out before touching the bars. What about shock settings? I had them on full stiff on rebound/compression on my last pass- does that sound about right to ya?

Also, when you say jet up on the secondaries 7 jets higher than the PV, im assuming you mean power valve? If so, I have a 3.5 pv in there now, so what would 7 sizes up from that be?




Your gonna have to tell me if the bog is a traction
issue... does the engine bog when you jump on the
gas or does it bog when you dump the clutch... if
its bogging on the hit of the gas then its more
of a carb issue... at the dump of the clutch its
a torque issue and higher revs can fix that... as
to the jets try it like Brian is saying

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052053
08/13/11 06:20 PM
08/13/11 06:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines Offline
master
CompWedgeEngines  Offline
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Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
Why is there a guy even touching your car during a burnout?..not very wise...

Car looks nice.


RIP Monte Smith

Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.

WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #1052054
08/13/11 06:47 PM
08/13/11 06:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406 Offline
I Live Here
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Overpriced Housing Central
First off, it's doing really well on the 60's for your first night out. Especially for a 4 gear. Nice work there. Keep chipping away at it.

Paint a BIG, WIDE white stripe on your rear tires. Looks like they are spinning to me. May be an illusion from lighting and camera frame speed.

Jet it up until it slows down. I bet there's another 1.5-2 mph in it. If it's in the 13.2 range it's lean. Use the meter as a guide and let the car tell you what it wants. Don't go with some predetermined number.

Set up your initial to get the vacuum up. I'll guess it's a little low and could be bumped up some. Just make sure you adjust mechanical to hit the total you want. Move the total around a bit at the track too. Again, let the car tell you what it likes. I'll guess around 33-35 because the compression isn't as high as it could be. May want more. Luckily, it's quick and easy to change.

Nice job and have fun with it.

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1052055
08/13/11 07:05 PM
08/13/11 07:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
M
mshred Offline OP
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mshred  Offline OP
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Toronto
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If it bogged you might need more pump shot???




pump shot as in squirter, or as in pump cam?

its got 35 squirters in it right now, primary and secondary. 3.5PV and 75 primary jet, 76 secondary jet. Used to have a 78 secondary in it, but it was running quite a bit richer with that in it. Once I get some solid AFR numbers I think I will have a better direction for jetting




Try a 4.5 PV, 74P and 80S. Then try a Blue pump cam and .031 squirters. Make sure you adjust the pump arms. Blue cam in the front and rear!
Make sure your mixture screws are about 1 1/2 to 2 turns out even if it idles a bit rich. That helps your throttle transition out also.
Looks good!!




Thanks for the advice Brian...is this a jetting combination that you have done on similar builds to mine? That jetting is actually close to what I was going to try again when rejetting (stock was 75p, 80s). Right now my idle screws are about 1/2 to 1 turn out respectively since that was where the best idle and highest vacuum was..should I still try and back them out more even if it compromises idle quality? Or will the different jetting, pump cam, and pv allow it to idle ok with 1.5-2 turns out?

I don't know much about pump cams, but what exactly do they do, and when tuning with them, what do they change exactly? Thanks again as usual..like i said before, I am very happy with the way this engine works, and I think I can hit a low 12 with further tuning, which I will be extatic about considering how little I have into this motor


Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1052056
08/13/11 07:06 PM
08/13/11 07:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
M
mshred Offline OP
master
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Toronto
Quote:

Hey Mr. P, thanks for the input!
Does the bog look like a traction issue to you, or a power issue from the engine i.e. launch rpm not high enough. It doesnt look like its smooth after the hook. But your advice was exactly my plan last night- I wanted to see just how much launch rpm would help me out before touching the bars. What about shock settings? I had them on full stiff on rebound/compression on my last pass- does that sound about right to ya?

Also, when you say jet up on the secondaries 7 jets higher than the PV, im assuming you mean power valve? If so, I have a 3.5 pv in there now, so what would 7 sizes up from that be?




Your gonna have to tell me if the bog is a traction
issue... does the engine bog when you jump on the
gas or does it bog when you dump the clutch... if
its bogging on the hit of the gas then its more
of a carb issue... at the dump of the clutch its
a torque issue and higher revs can fix that... as
to the jets try it like Brian is saying





The engine is bogging under the hit of the throttle, so I guess it is more of a carb issue. Maybe once I get the bog sorted out the 60's will improve and the car will still leave hard, but will leave smoother...Can't wait to get back out to the track and find out, just sucks its a 2 hour drive away lol

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: CompWedgeEngines] #1052057
08/13/11 07:07 PM
08/13/11 07:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
M
mshred Offline OP
master
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Toronto
Quote:

Why is there a guy even touching your car during a burnout?..not very wise...

Car looks nice.




I know i know....the burnout before the car was going totally sideways, so one of the track guys suggested we try that...but as you can see it wasn't nescessary on that pass

not sure why it went sideways to begin with on the one burnout...maybe one tire wasnt wet enough?

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: RobX4406] #1052058
08/13/11 07:14 PM
08/13/11 07:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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mshred Offline OP
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Toronto
Quote:

First off, it's doing really well on the 60's for your first night out. Especially for a 4 gear. Nice work there. Keep chipping away at it.

Paint a BIG, WIDE white stripe on your rear tires. Looks like they are spinning to me. May be an illusion from lighting and camera frame speed.

Jet it up until it slows down. I bet there's another 1.5-2 mph in it. If it's in the 13.2 range it's lean. Use the meter as a guide and let the car tell you what it wants. Don't go with some predetermined number.

Set up your initial to get the vacuum up. I'll guess it's a little low and could be bumped up some. Just make sure you adjust mechanical to hit the total you want. Move the total around a bit at the track too. Again, let the car tell you what it likes. I'll guess around 33-35 because the compression isn't as high as it could be. May want more. Luckily, it's quick and easy to change.

Nice job and have fun with it.




Thanks Rob! The 60's are alot better than the 2.2's I was getting last year with stock springs and a snubber lol...I think I may need more tuning in the caltracs, but im going to sort out the carb first and see if that helps...As soon as I saw that 107mph on my first pass I was extatic because I knew even though I ran a high 12, the car definitely had more in it...im chasing it down slowly though

About the tires, do you mean the tire is spinning on the rim? I had actually put tape on the rim and tire to see if it spun, but on the 2 hour drive to the track with the car the tape went flying off, and I didn't bring anymore, so i couldnt really see if it did. If its spinning though, should I try airing the tires up a tad, or do i need screws?

I am definitely going to play with the jetting since the car was pulling 107 and then all of a sudden a 108.43 trap speed...so i think its definitely leaving some on the table, plus I already knew that the 75p 76s jet wasnt exactly ideal, but i was waiting to get out to the track to see and then get some ideas and input

Currently initial timing is at 18, and total is 36 all in by about 2300rpms...Im running basic pump puke gas, and it does not ping at all..My dad suggested I bring a timing light and then up the gas to the best stuff, but I insisted the car go down the track the exact same way i run it on the street, gas type and all. I will definitely try playing with the timing though as I may be leavin some on the table (not sure I can get away with it with the gas im running though)...Im just big into the whole it runs on the street the exact same way it does on the track- people couldnt believe that I drove 2 the hours there and 2 hours back with the e/t streets and a dumped exhaust on the car LOL

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052059
08/13/11 08:30 PM
08/13/11 08:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 469
Tennessee
S
steeldust Offline
mopar
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 469
Tennessee
Nice looking MOPAR and it sounds good way to go and good luck.

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052060
08/13/11 08:36 PM
08/13/11 08:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
I Live Here
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State of confusion
Good job........... Bangin gears is cool for sure and it`s running good w/more to come!


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052061
08/13/11 08:55 PM
08/13/11 08:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Gainesville,FL
Sounds like a decent first track visit. I assume you have secondary jet extentions?

6776993-IMG_0886.JPG (62 downloads)
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052062
08/13/11 10:20 PM
08/13/11 10:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,205
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,205
Bend,OR USA
All of the stocker and bracket race SB with iron heads I've help on like 30 to 33 egree total timing, pump gas or race gas Have you treid less timing? As far as the bog my first NHRA legal stocker was 1970 Cuda 4 sped with the 426 street Hemi motor, it would bog on a good track with 4.10 and 28 inch tall M&H slicks letting the clutch out at 6500 RPM back in 1974 I switch rear gears(4.88 and then 5:13 and started spinning the tire on the starting line but it went a tiny bit quicker and faster, my thoughts are to put the throttle on the floor on the last yellow and then let the clutch pedal out If it bogs work on it I owned a 340 4 speed street Duster later that I fed it some of the parts from my racer, it would bog with NHRA legal 9x30 stick shift slicks on it on the street letting the clutch out at over 6500 RPM I never got beat on the street with that car, it only ran in the high twelves back then. It beat many cars that had raced cars that knew sombody who knew somebody who had a car that ran in the nines I now put white shoe polish on the rims and tires so I can have some one video the car, when you play the video back on a TV with slow motion you can see if the tire spins on the line or not, and if so how much


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: mshred] #1052063
08/13/11 10:21 PM
08/13/11 10:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Brian Hafliger Offline
master
Brian Hafliger  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,486
SoCal
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If it bogged you might need more pump shot???




pump shot as in squirter, or as in pump cam?

its got 35 squirters in it right now, primary and secondary. 3.5PV and 75 primary jet, 76 secondary jet. Used to have a 78 secondary in it, but it was running quite a bit richer with that in it. Once I get some solid AFR numbers I think I will have a better direction for jetting




Try a 4.5 PV, 74P and 80S. Then try a Blue pump cam and .031 squirters. Make sure you adjust the pump arms. Blue cam in the front and rear!
Make sure your mixture screws are about 1 1/2 to 2 turns out even if it idles a bit rich. That helps your throttle transition out also.
Looks good!!




Thanks for the advice Brian...is this a jetting combination that you have done on similar builds to mine? That jetting is actually close to what I was going to try again when rejetting (stock was 75p, 80s). Right now my idle screws are about 1/2 to 1 turn out respectively since that was where the best idle and highest vacuum was..should I still try and back them out more even if it compromises idle quality? Or will the different jetting, pump cam, and pv allow it to idle ok with 1.5-2 turns out?

I don't know much about pump cams, but what exactly do they do, and when tuning with them, what do they change exactly? Thanks again as usual..like i said before, I am very happy with the way this engine works, and I think I can hit a low 12 with further tuning, which I will be extatic about considering how little I have into this motor






The pump cam is responsible for the volume/time the squirter sees. Trust me, get 2 blue cams, and go back to .031 squirts. Go up to 4.5 PV, and set the mix screws at 1 1/2 for now.
Yes it will be a tad rich, that's the cam and that's OK.
Very nice looking car and very good for a 9:1 360 4 row!!


Brian Hafliger
Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: Brian Hafliger] #1052064
08/13/11 10:47 PM
08/13/11 10:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 348
South Lyon, Michigan
6
6bblRoadrunner Offline
enthusiast
6bblRoadrunner  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 348
South Lyon, Michigan
First off...good first outing. My opinion is that you need to increase your launch rpm (I ran into the same issue early on with my 4spd Demon). Like Mr P stated the small block doesn't make a lot of torque, so it needs rpm. You've stated that you have a 2-step in the car so I would keep increasing launch rpm (at the time I was tuning I would go up in increments of 400), then back off when your '60s start going the wrong way. The reason I say this is that (I'm assuming your leaving with the pedal on the floor) you've used your pump shots. The video camera is a great tuning aid for this. I found that what I thought was a clean leave still had a slight bog when reviewing the video.
Keep testing...you'll get it.

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: goldmember] #1052065
08/14/11 10:24 AM
08/14/11 10:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
M
mshred Offline OP
master
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Toronto
Quote:

Sounds like a decent first track visit. I assume you have secondary jet extentions?




nope, I actually don't...that could actually be a real problem...man im out of it.

Going to order some first thing tommorow morning

Re: Finally got out to the track last night!!... [Re: Cab_Burge] #1052066
08/14/11 10:26 AM
08/14/11 10:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
M
mshred Offline OP
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mshred  Offline OP
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Toronto
Quote:

All of the stocker and bracket race SB with iron heads I've help on like 30 to 33 egree total timing, pump gas or race gas Have you treid less timing? As far as the bog my first NHRA legal stocker was 1970 Cuda 4 sped with the 426 street Hemi motor, it would bog on a good track with 4.10 and 28 inch tall M&H slicks letting the clutch out at 6500 RPM back in 1974 I switch rear gears(4.88 and then 5:13 and started spinning the tire on the starting line but it went a tiny bit quicker and faster, my thoughts are to put the throttle on the floor on the last yellow and then let the clutch pedal out If it bogs work on it I owned a 340 4 speed street Duster later that I fed it some of the parts from my racer, it would bog with NHRA legal 9x30 stick shift slicks on it on the street letting the clutch out at over 6500 RPM I never got beat on the street with that car, it only ran in the high twelves back then. It beat many cars that had raced cars that knew sombody who knew somebody who had a car that ran in the nines I now put white shoe polish on the rims and tires so I can have some one video the car, when you play the video back on a TV with slow motion you can see if the tire spins on the line or not, and if so how much




I havent tried any less timing, maybe I guess I should. Im really thinking I should be able to tune this bog out with some carb tuning and the right launch rpm. Shoe polish is a good idea for marking the tire and rim to see if its spinning..thanks man!

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