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Lets not forget, Jim Scortino, and W7 both stated, HP is HP, with the same HP if optimized it should run the Same ET. Its Physics, right.!

Rehr/Morrison says no, I say no!

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I think you might wanna reread my posts.

Two 500hp engines......engine one peaks at 5000 and is down 50hp by 5500. Engine two makes 500hp at 6000 and is down 50 hp by 7000.

I'll take engine two.

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Great point!! And, I respect your opinion as well as the example you've provided. The point of higher rpms = more power, VERY debatable. Doesn't WORK for every scenario and WEIGHT is the determining factor. Lesser vehicle weight that the crank moves (in shorter stroke motors), more vehicle speed is gained as rpm increases. Now, if engine #1's TORQUE
peak starts early in the rpm scale and peaks in the upper midrange, keeping an average of ABOVE 500+ ft/lbs of torque, geared CORRECTLY it may offset the smallblocks' topend charge. (Hint: 440 Six Pack).

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Great point!! And, I respect your opinion as well as the example you've provided. The point of higher rpms = more power, VERY debatable. Doesn't WORK for every scenario and WEIGHT is the determining factor. Lesser vehicle weight that the crank moves (in shorter stroke motors), more vehicle speed is gained as rpm increases. Now, if engine #1's TORQUE
peak starts early in the rpm scale and peaks in the upper midrange, keeping an average of ABOVE 500+ ft/lbs of torque, geared CORRECTLY it may offset the smallblocks' topend charge. (Hint: 440 Six Pack).

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Ahhhh...but I did not say higher rpms "always" equal more power. I simply state that higher USEABLE rpm is more desireable because it allows for the advantage of higher stall speeds and more gear ratio to accelerate the vehicle.

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Great point!! And, I respect your opinion as well as the example you've provided. The point of higher rpms = more power, VERY debatable. Doesn't WORK for every scenario and WEIGHT is the determining factor. Lesser vehicle weight that the crank moves (in shorter stroke motors), more vehicle speed is gained as rpm increases. Now, if engine #1's TORQUE
peak starts early in the rpm scale and peaks in the upper midrange, keeping an average of ABOVE 500+ ft/lbs of torque, geared CORRECTLY it may offset the smallblocks' topend charge. (Hint: 440 Six Pack).

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Ahhhh...but I did not say higher rpms "always" equal more power. I simply state that higher USEABLE rpm is more desireable because it allows for the advantage of higher stall speeds and more gear ratio to accelerate the vehicle.

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That's my point, you didn't say it. with ya, on the useable rpm it makes good sense.

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I remember, quite a while ago, it was desired to have an engine be capable of operating at 10% higher rpm than the optimum intended rpm range.

I expect that percentage is somewhat higher nowadays.

reason was.... better performance.

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You are probably right. With all these newer "fast action" type cams out there, the "rule of thumb" for rpm definitely changed somewhat.

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How 'bout this though
We have 2 cars, both weigh 3000lb, both go 11.00 @ 125mph. One has a B/B, the other a S/B.
Which one makes the most power?

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Based on Physics.

If you run the numbers on 3 different HP calculaters they should all be dead nuts on But they wont!

Should be simple math right

Based on Physics,

If both combos are optimized, they should have the exact same HP right, its simple Physics as posted earlier by others



Now comes Theory,

Rehr Morrison theorizes, that if you take the Same HP but apply it at a higher RPM with more mechanical leverage. You will be faster!

Since the SB should rev higher in the above said combo. It therefore must have Less HP then the BB since it ran "only" the same number and not faster!

So the same exact HP, wont produce the Same ET, based on this.


I theorized, as others have that the BB with its wider torque/HP band would be faster then the SB at the same HP. So therefore the SB must have More HP then the BB to run the same number!

So the same exact HP, wont produce the Same ET,
based on this.

No Doubt Physics are involved, it just seems to be to hard to nail down with just the Simple, "MPH to Weight" , "Power band to Stroke" theorys.

IMO, Rehr/Morrisons theory has merit @ 10,000 RPM with more gear leverage.

But, so does the broader powerband scenario @ 6000 RPM, Take your choice with this 11.00 combo.

For the record,
500 HP @ 10,000 RPM is 263# of torque.
500 HP @ 6000 RPM is 438# of torque.


Please Tell me Tig, that you have some Dyno numbers to toss in. And that the Dyno was the same Dyno, not two across town that are a 100 HP different from one another.

Lets not forget, Jim Scortino, and W7 both stated, HP is HP, with the same HP if optimized it should run the Same ET. Its Physics, right.!

Rehr/Morrison says no, I say no!

These combos dont race down the track at a Fixed RPM HP level!

The easiest Physics of all should be the "weight vs MPH = xxx amount of HP". Why cant All of the various HP calculators agree?

After all, Its simple Physics right.

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did any one see the post B1Johnny's 588 B1 PSO Engine on the dyno today?

bring on them n/a small blocks
all thats right they cant make that kind of power n/a.

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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.

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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.

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When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.

If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.

Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.

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i need to hit the lottery

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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.

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When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.

If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.

Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.

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i need to hit the lottery

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All ya gotta do is.....

No wife, no kids, no vacations for at least 35 years and spend every spare penny on car stuff. That'll get most of the way there. Supermarket coupons will take ya the rest of the way.

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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.

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When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.

If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.

Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.

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i need to hit the lottery

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All ya gotta do is.....

No wife, no kids, no vacations for at least 35 years and spend every spare penny on car stuff. That'll get most of the way there. Supermarket coupons will take ya the rest of the way.

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How true!

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But you stated Power not ET in your statement....I am just stating the facts that that old statement of you can not replace cubic inches is old school and antiquated.....

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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.

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thats why were mopar guys and not ford

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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.

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thats why were mopar guys and not ford

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But you stated Power not ET in your statement....I am just stating the facts that that old statement of you can not replace cubic inches is old school and antiquated.....

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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.

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thats why were mopar guys and not ford

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Our little Ford was never beaten by any type of Mopar. NEVER. We went to the hemi for two reasons. One, it's a purpose built engine that was intended to live with the kind of abuse we give it and Two, I'm a Mopar guy.

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But you stated Power not ET in your statement....I am just stating the facts that that old statement of you can not replace cubic inches is old school and antiquated.....

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Then why does the NHRA have a cubic in limit for all of their pro classes?

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Which one will last longer at the 500hp level? My vote goes to the BB.

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The 360 will last longer at the 500hp level. Why? The pistons are 300+ grams lighter, the rods are 150+ grams lighter, the crankshaft is 12 to 13 pounds lighter.

And for the original posters question. Both sb and bb properly set up and at the same weight and the same 500hp, the small block will be the quicker of the two for the same reason that it will last longer, because the lower end rotating parts are lighter, therefore it will accelerate quicker and because the valves and valve train parts are also much lighter, the sm block RPM range will far out extend the RPM range of the big block.

Now you could get some expensive, lightweight parts for the BB but then it will make far more than 500HP.

It is very cheap and easy to make a near stock 500HP 440 with mild porting, cam, and bolt-ons, but it is like a hand grenade with the pin out.

On the other hand it is probably not likely to get 500hp from a near stock 360 with mild porting, cam, and bolt-ons as none ever came factory with any compression, much better chance with a 340, but would be a much more difficult task, [extensive porting] than the big block.

There are some very wicked small blocks that can lay down some unbelievable numbers but if the same effort is applied to a larger c.i. big block it will most definetly out perform the small block. A good example is the 500c.i. prostock engines, Pre--HEMI 99, cause were not talking HEMIS here.

Alot of different views and opinions for a simple post and I see i am very late to this much debated topic.

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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.

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thats why were mopar guys and not ford

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Our little Ford was never beaten by any type of Mopar. NEVER. We went to the hemi for two reasons. One, it's a purpose built engine that was intended to live with the kind of abuse we give it and Two, I'm a Mopar guy.

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easy big fella i was being a wiseguy,,lol

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