big block VS small block

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Imo if everything was built ideally for either motor and weight being the same, a big block would out run a small block all day. Simply because it has more torque.

I disagree! Say the big block has 3.91 gears ideally because its gonna peak at 5600.
The 360 is gonna need say 4.88s ideally because it will peak about 6500. The 440 is gonna have a 3800 stall vs the 360s 4800. I think the torque will be equalized at the rear tires. And at this point what role does the rotating mass inside the engine play. Not to mention 100 less pounds of engine.

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Question one-yes
Question two- yes
question three - maybe?
For number three, it is all about the most efficient way to get the most average hp to the track the full length of it.
Odds are the small block will have a narrower power band than the BB, and will have more flash and stall. So, it kinda doesn't matter. You build the converter and pick the gear ratios to make the power band you have work.
When you say both making 500 hp, I assume you also mean they will average the same hp over a wide enough range so that they will be competitive.

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500 hp is 500 hp. if both cars are optimized, the small block car will go faster (less weight). the two engines will have different torque curves, because it will take a bigger and/or better head and cam for the 360 to make that number, not because of shorter stroke. torque is a factor of cubic inches more than anything else. the 360 won't need to make (and won't make) as much torque to make 500 hp, because it will be higher up in the rpm range. the cars being optimized will level the playing field. that's where the weight advantage will win the game for the small block, imo.

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500 hp is 500 hp. if both cars are optimized, the small block car will go faster (less weight). the two engines will have different torque curves, because it will take a bigger and/or better head and cam for the 360 to make that number, not because of shorter stroke. torque is a factor of cubic inches more than anything else. the 360 won't need to make (and won't make) as much torque to make 500 hp, because it will be higher up in the rpm range. the cars being optimized will level the playing field. that's where the weight advantage will win the game for the small block, imo.

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I think that fat guys need big blocks and thin guys need small blocks, and when you put a fat guy in a small block you need a fatter wallet.... and that's all there is too it

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If you take the best factory 440 (sixpack) you should be able to get 500 with a cam and intake , rockers, headers.Throw in some cylinder head work too.. for laughs.

I can't see that happening with a 360. And if I'm right, there goes the budget deal. (which wasn't really in the original question)

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Lets say you build a 440 and a 360 both stock stroke to make the same horse power (500hp). Do you agree the 440 will make more torque given the larger stroke? Do you think with properly matched gear and converter for the engines in say a 3000lb car will run the same ET? If they do run the same ET does this mean the smallblock would recover in between gear changes quicker to make up for being down on torque. I am trying to end an argument, so your thoughts please.

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The 440 will have the larger more average power band over the 360. Hands down in the above senario it would be the winner.

Further, any mopar SB stroked bigger then 3.379 is a BB IMO

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Lets say you build a 440 and a 360 both stock stroke to make the same horse power (500hp). A.- Do you agree the 440 will make more torque given the larger stroke? B.- Do you think with properly matched gear and converter for the engines in say a 3000lb car will run the same ET? C.- If they do run the same ET does this mean the smallblock would recover in between gear changes quicker to make up for being down on torque. I am trying to end an argument, so your thoughts please.

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http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm



Wallace Racing - ET/MPH/HP Calculator Weight is as the car sits on the line: driver and gas in it.
Calculate ET and MPH from HP and Weight
Weight HP

Your ET / MPH computed from your vehicle weight of 3000 pounds and HP of 500 is 10.58 seconds and MPH of 126.58 MPH.

It doesn't ask if it is a 360 or 440.. Guess What.. It Doesn't Care..




Chris..

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look out for the im gone lol mike

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I'm gonna join earthmover here.

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I think that fat guys need big blocks and thin guys need small blocks, and when you put a fat guy in a small block you need a fatter wallet.... and that's all there is too it

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this

who could have ever thought that BB vs. SB discussion could turn out worse than kids fighting for candy on the playground?

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what would a 340 30/over factory 3.31 stroke be 344cubes?
3100 barracuda with driver.been 6.84 et @98mph 1/8 mile/ with otb eheads/rpm air gap/750 carb/258*/268*@50 roller cam/kb pistons/10.0 compression/power glide trans.Bring the big block on with = parts and watch what happens.

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I just pulled some time slips from june of 05 this was a very mild 440 build using the stock crank, stock rods,.030 over TRW pistons with 10.3 to 1 comp. with out of the box eddy heads and a mopar .590 solid flat tappet cam in a 69 valiant street car 3115 race weight set up for 1/4 went 6.739 @ 102.66 in 1/8. So there's a big block = parts so what would happen??

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Luckily for the big block guys we are talking about straight line acleration here because if we talk road racing there is no way to make a turn with a boat anchor in the front

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Makes sense. The big block makes it a muscle car. Muscle cars weren't meant to go road racing.

I agree 5oo hp is 5oo hp. But my opinion is, that if both cars are same hp, at same weight, and properly geared with all the right parts in all the right places, they should be very close the same ET. Because the small block will have a more aggressive cam and wider rpm ramge to make 5oo hp, and also use a steeper converter. But because of the wider torque range, the big block "should" 60 ft better, and the small block "should" mph better, so I think it will equal out. My

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Oh by the way my car can beat your car and I could beat you at arm wrestling and my dad can beat up your dad.

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1. I'll race ya! spot me to the 60 ft, my car is heavier with the trans hanging in it,
2. I'll arm wrestle you! spot me 45* and let me use two arms,
3. My Dads car has a WEDGE with a TORQUEFLITE, what's your Dads got?

later Buddy
and btw, who is arguing with you?

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Lets say you build a 440 and a 360 both stock stroke to make the same horse power (500hp). Do you agree the 440 will make more torque given the larger stroke? Do you think with properly matched gear and converter for the engines in say a 3000lb car will run the same ET? If they do run the same ET does this mean the smallblock would recover in between gear changes quicker to make up for being down on torque. I am trying to end an argument, so your thoughts please.

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if they are the same weight (which i don't think was mentioned by the op), they'll run real close. real close.

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They BOTH have to make 500 HP AND weigh 3000 lbs.

Looks like the original poster isn't going to settle
any argument and started one here.

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There are a lot of POT STIRRERS on this site.

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I guess this will never be settled so my argument with my buddies will just go on. But it dosen't matter he knows deep down inside that he's wrong and I'm right

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Which one weighs more..

A: 1 pound of Lead...

B: 1 pound of feathers...




Maybe that will help..

Has nothing to do with "Big or Small" blocks..


Chris...

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Heres my comparison analogy

Witch one hits the ground first.., from a 1320' drop!

A: 1 pound of lead..

B: 1 pound of feathers..

Has nothing to do with "Big or Small" blocks..

Mike

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If you take a car with a 500 hp 360 and take it to the track it'll run a number. Now, if you take that same car, pull the 360, stuff a 500 hp 440 in it and take it back to the track (traction not being an issue), it will go faster.
I had a 408" (I know that's not a 360) small block, 11.2:1 cr, 270 cfm eddie heads, torker II intake, cam was 231/237, .560 lift on a 108. Based on others' builds, I would say it was pushing 475-485 hp. The cheap POS eagle cast crank broke after 6000 miles (rated to 500 hp and 7000 rpm!!) ((my own fault, shoulda known better)) so I built a 440. Stock crank, stock rods, KB flat tops, ported 452 heads that were also in the 270 range on the intakes. Don't know what the compression is (don't care, it runs on pump 87 at 5500 ft) 228/236 cam (TQ50), less lift 110 lobe sep. Torker II intake and I dynoed this one. 485 hp, 507 tq. Everything else was the same. Truck is faster with the BB. Same 750 carb as well. 440 needs more timing, sounds pretty good, 408 had a wicked exhaust note with that compression and a little more overlap.
My point being, car being the same, the 440 will start pulling harder, sooner due to the extra cubic inches, no so much because of the longer stroke, which is only .160" longer. Start changing the car to favor each specific engine and the results may be different.



You need to go back and reread my post it says 500hp each with converter and gears to match the motors rpm range. You put a 440 where you had a 408. You also said you never dynoed the 408 but did the 440 so this tells me you got everything out of the 440 being dyno tuned and the 408 was not to it's full potential. Correct me if my statement is not true.

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440 would win. Longer power band, better torque and you don't need no stinking stroker crank, high stall or much gear to do it. The 440 will launch better, pull harder and et better.

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I completely disagree.

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Hypothetical....

Engine A, makes 500hp @ 6000 and drops 50hp by 7000, w/380tq @ 3800.

Engine B, makes 500hp @ 5200 and drops 80hp by 5900, w/450tq @ 3200.

If geared, convertered and shifted correctly, with traction NOT a factor, in the same style and weight car........who wins???

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"Seeing" low shifting BBs out ETing SBs is irrellevant. You have no idea the power #s, weights and the million other factors responsible for ET.

We are talking SAME weight AND HP. With that being the case, the engine with more useable rpm can be geared and stalled to create a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to accelerate quicker. 3000-6000 powerband is a non-starter, as shift rpm fallback that wide means you need a new converter guy. So who cares what's happening at 3000???

Do you realize how much more flash stall and rear ratio you can use with an engine that hangs on till 7000 vs 6000??? Remember.....same weight car and peak HP.

I see your point but WHY would you go that route if you could do it with less stall and gear? Maybe the post should be which costs less to build... anyway both will work just a matter of how you want to get there.

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"Seeing" low shifting BBs out ETing SBs is irrellevant. You have no idea the power #s, weights and the million other factors responsible for ET.

We are talking SAME weight AND HP. With that being the case, the engine with more useable rpm can be geared and stalled to create a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to accelerate quicker. 3000-6000 powerband is a non-starter, as shift rpm fallback that wide means you need a new converter guy. So who cares what's happening at 3000???

Do you realize how much more flash stall and rear ratio you can use with an engine that hangs on till 7000 vs 6000??? Remember.....same weight car and peak HP.

I see your point but WHY would you go that route if you could do it with less stall and gear? Maybe the post should be which costs less to build... anyway both will work just a matter of how you want to get there.

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"have a screw blown HEMI in my Cuda' to get the ice cream home before it melts"

well what good is melted ice cream?

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No good....

That's the reason for the screw.

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Pretty hard to build a 440 with only 500 HP. We would have to go to the junk yard for a set of 906 heads.

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ok since you guys want to fight about big and small block lets try this.


lets say you have a 360 with 500 hp and 200 foot pounds of torque and you put in a 4 inch crank and now it still has 500 hp but now it has 400 foot pounds of torque. you are saying it will run the same?? same 3000 pound car.

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maybe a better post would be "practical" What's the easiest/cheapest block to make 500 hp? Any block big/small can make power if you toss enuff money into it.

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nobody cares what it costs or how to get 500hp the question is what is the differece in torque going to do

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YES!
Fully optimized!
YES!
Less cubes will make the horsepower at higher rpm, thus requiring a lower rearend gear, which multiplies torque. And I'm not talking out my ego like half you guys here. I am small block converting big block guy. Mostly cuz the aftermarket has made it cheaper and easier.

So YES guys your 500 cubic inch engine making 550 horsepower doesn't run any quicker than a 550 horsepower smallblock. Is it more streetable with 3.55 gears and 3k stall? Yes. But its not gonna be any faster then the 550 hp 340 that's running 5.13s.

If you don't get it by now maybe go back to school and take a physics class.

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This is Gettin' GOOD!

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i got it

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So using some of you guy's theory any engine 500 hp no matter what the torque "say one is 500 the other 700" they will run the same if every other aspect of the combination is optimized? not trying to argue just trying to understand.

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sorry I'm out. Just trying to inject some logic into the conversation. By the way I'm not the only one who disagrees with you. I'll stand by what I said. A car that makes 500hp and over 570lbs of torque (and a 440 will) would beat a 500hp SB that makes maybe 500lbs of torque. geared and stalled correct blah blah blah

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i am glad i read this

now i am going to tear out my 488 inch v-10 and put in a stock 340 they both make around 300 hp so there will be no difference.

i am liking the small blocks

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Not a bad idea. Come to think of it I wasted the money on my cummins should have just got the 360 same hp, just a gear change from same performance.

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It's not a Mopar comparison but it is somewhat relevent to the arguement.
I think it was Hot Rod a few years back that built two engines, a small block 406 and a big block 406, same cam profile.
I cant remember the Dyno numbers but the big block heads flowed better so it kicked butt on the small block. They both went in the same Chevelle with the weight the only difference,
the smallblock managed 12.50's I think and the big block ran 12.30's or 12.20's, even with the weight disadvantage and the same cubes.

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The only reason the big block won was because the gear and converter favored it. You cant use the same gear and converter becuase the big block made more torque.

472HEMI you might as well pull the v-10 and put in a 340 because when you don't get the truck out of the garage it doesn't really matter. They both will rust away to nothing at the same rate.

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i am glad i read this

now i am going to tear out my 488 inch v-10 and put in a stock 340 they both make around 300 hp so there will be no difference.

i am liking the small blocks

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just get the 358 ci nascar motor there going for about 6 g's..and they only make 850hp

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One thing that is almost always left out of these conversations is the torque curve. Another argument that comes down to do you want a slip to say my engine made xxx horsepower or do you want an et slip that shows how well the engine makes power over a broad range and is utilized.

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no matter the argument no substitue for cubic inch. no matter what u do to the smallblock if you do the same mod to the big block the big block will make more power

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ok put a turbo on a 360 that makes 500 horsepower and 440 that makes 500 horsepower same difference i will play your silly game

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such entertainment for free.

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and if this is correct i could get a srt4 motor make it 500 horsepower put it in a 3200 lb race car and spank all the small blocks and big blocks

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231/237 cam in that 408 and 480ish HP ??? sounds more like maybe a 430hp engine

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Hopefully, all the engine builders who deal in max N/A engines are keeping tabs of this thread. All these years of trying to shift power UP was an excersize in futility. They should have been trying to increase TQ at 3000rpm.

Who knew that all they were doing was abusing the valve springs.

Perhaps this will signal the wave of the future......turbo diesels in Pro Stock, with 1000tq @ 1800rpm and 300hp @ 1801rpm.

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The diesel analogy took the cake.

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and if this is correct i could get a srt4 motor make it 500 horsepower put it in a 3200 lb race car and spank all the small blocks and big blocks

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Lets say you build a 440 and a 360 both stock stroke to make the same horse power (500hp). Do you agree the 440 will make more torque given the larger stroke? Do you think with properly matched gear and converter for the engines in say a 3000lb car will run the same ET?
If they do run the same ET does this mean the smallblock would recover in between gear changes quicker to make up for being down on torque. I am trying to end an argument, so your thuoghts please.

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First, never said anything against power adders.
Second, stock strokes, NO stroker combos

Yes, they would run close in times.
Yes, A smallblock would recover a bit quicker (depending on equipment). Again, depending on eeqipment and tune, top end hp rules, (shorter strokes) if torque peaks late in the midrange.
However, a high but nearly flat torque peak in the lower midrange, (longer strokes) can be equally as strong. There is another factor in trying to measure an engines performance potential. Rod/stroke ratio. Although NOT 100% accurate, but it gives an indicator of the engines basic potential for performance, (equipment being not part of equation). 340's, for example, have a 1.84 ratio - which lends them nicely to higher rpm power.
360's on the other hand, have a 1.71 - which gives them a GREAT advantage as a midrange high hp/high torque motor. SOLID base for a stroker or "standard arm" HOT street/strip.
440's have a 1.80 - which is nearly equal in performance as the 360, but with a slightly BETTER potential for higher rpm hp.
Not to say 360's can't rpm up but it also about the equipment (parts) which makes it all happen. Given both at the 500hp level, again, they would be nearly equal. A point about the 360's rev drop, it would NOT be the same as a 340's, unfortunately! It would be at slightly lower rpm than the 340's, characteristic to the 440's (again, equipment depending!). If the 440 has a balanced bobweight LESS than the 360's, it's a wrap!! But it's not needed for a 440 at the 500hp level. 500hp 440 engine builds are standard "street-level" combos, they are unnecessary, unless you WANT TO spent a bit more money on
the parts/balance job just to "maximize" that particular combo at THAT level!! At 550-600hp or MORE, IT IS absolutely beneficial!! It would be routine for the 360 (at 500hp) since the nature of smallblocks are to rpm quicker/higher than their big block counterparts. And you would want maximum hi-rpm reliablity from your smallblock!! Anytime you can REDUCE reciprocating weight, you are adding rpm and possibly more torque.

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http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?p=201

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What does he know????

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It is funny all this talk of 45yo ancient big and small block engines when these modern cars with tiny cid engines like the Boss 302 can kick ass to the tune of 11.70 stock with just drag radials

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Umm... I do think Chrysler made the slant six motor. Has two LESS cylinders than YOUR Boss 302. They're ALSO ancient, (in YOUR words). Would you run it against this 45-46 year (young) old ancient engine? I doubt it!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuudC21ScB4&feature=related

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http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?p=201

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Quite interesting!!
Good article and it does hold some truth and merit! But, there are cam/head combos, that will produce good airflow VELOCITY for more effective power at lower rpms in some engine combos. Better burn, in cylinders, more midrange hp/torque so you won't buzz the engine as high to get an identical rate of velocity in the manifold/heads/cylinders. To do the latter you would need more port VOLUME (bigger ports) which rquires MORE engine rpm to be effective. Great for racing, not so good for "street/strip" which would lean towards a bit "wider" powerband.

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another factor is the bore size relative to the valve size and placement.

440s dont open on center but the smallblocks due iirc.
valve shrouding comes into play.

big or smallblock aside,

the largest bore with the most advantageous valve location with the most cycles going thru it will be the better performer when comparing equal size pumps.

Its all about passing the most air. Imo

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on the passing air concept. Everything else is just a "pathway" into the cylinders. Some designs are more "frictional" to the airflow than others. In light of your "large bore" theory, which is well-documented , the theory of a "longer" cylinder
stroke which increases the volume at LESS operating speed, holds truth too!!

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It's amazing that in 2011, people still don't understand important things, like "shift recovery" and "useable rpm".

It has nothing to do with....."my big block is better than your small block, or vice versa.

Pity, I tell ya.

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There are no given right or wrong answers here,
just opinions and facts. Both can be useful to learn from.

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I have the BADDEST big-block on my street............PERIOD.

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you have a very impressive bigblock for sure

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I said "my street" cos there`s always someone around the corner who`s faster. This topic is good for both sides big and small blocks guys and gals alike as for me; I`d rather have the big block torque in a street/strip car and keep the r`s down than have a small block high revving monster that taxes even the best of parts.

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I agree the big block torque curve will be broader, but I said with gear and converter to match the combo's.


With that said a big block with a 275/60/15 tire with 3.23 shifted at 6000 rpm would fall back to 3500 in second, then back to 6000 and fall back to 4000 in drive. While a small block with the same tire and with 4.10 shifted at 7500 would fall back to 4500 in second and back to 7500 then fall to 5200 in drive. That small block would have 500rpm more pull in 1st-2nd shift and 300rpm more pull in 2nd-drive thats 800 rpm more total. This is figured on both cars with a 727 and stock gear ratio's. This would also be with the converter dead locked which we know don't happen, but still more useable rpm from the small block.

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You stated matched optimized combos between the two. A 500 HP BB is not optimized with a 3.23 gear. Further, it wouldnt fall back to 3500 rpm in second with the right vert.


The original question, 500 HP BB 440 vs 500 HP SB 360 in a 3000# car. In this case alone, at this level of performance, the broader torque range of the BB,s extra stroke should win.

The argument of Mechanical advantage with more gear has merit. But you can overgear IMO, Ive found that with my 500HP combo, it likes to dwell a little in first gear with the verts torque multiplications aspects.

Ive tested 3 gears with the same HP. RPM and gear multiplication isnt always the fastest way to the stripe at these 500 hp levels.

Pro stocks 500CI and 10,000 rpm,s sure different story.

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A 500hp BB has torque around 3000-3800 rpms. Would
need traction aids to hook well in a #3000lb car.
A 500hp SB has torque around 4000-4500 rpms. Needs traction aids also, but a bit EASIER to hook
in a #3000lb car, due to it's higher peak, not wider. Wider or broader torque band are great for
slightly heavier cars, but at #3000lbs, so much torque is there down low, tires are overwhelmed and they spin. During the run, things may or DO get "close" midtrack, but to the finish it's usually a "leg" race, with the one who has the higher rev potential winning.

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That's another thing, to get a decent tire on an a-body you have to start cutting.

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Not on a Duster you don't. I have 275/60/15 drag radials on 15X8 rims with 4.5" backspacing and they fit perfectly with no rubbing.

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Yeah, but a Duster is just a Nova rear with a Valiant front clip..

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I agree the big block torque curve will be broader, but I said with gear and converter to match the combo's.


With that said a big block with a 275/60/15 tire with 3.23 shifted at 6000 rpm would fall back to 3500 in second, then back to 6000 and fall back to 4000 in drive. While a small block with the same tire and with 4.10 shifted at 7500 would fall back to 4500 in second and back to 7500 then fall to 5200 in drive. That small block would have 500rpm more pull in 1st-2nd shift and 300rpm more pull in 2nd-drive thats 800 rpm more total. This is figured on both cars with a 727 and stock gear ratio's. This would also be with the converter dead locked which we know don't happen, but still more useable rpm from the small block.

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You stated matched optimized combos between the two. A 500 HP BB is not optimized with a 3.23 gear. Further, it wouldnt fall back to 3500 rpm in second with the right vert.


The original question, 500 HP BB 440 vs 500 HP SB 360 in a 3000# car. In this case alone, at this level of performance, the broader torque range of the BB,s extra stroke should win.

The argument of Mechanical advantage with more gear has merit. But you can overgear IMO, Ive found that with my 500HP combo, it likes to dwell a little in first gear with the verts torque multiplications aspects.

Ive tested 3 gears with the same HP. RPM and gear multiplication isnt always the fastest way to the stripe at these 500 hp levels.

Pro stocks 500CI and 10,000 rpm,s sure different story.

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It's amazing that in 2011, people still don't understand important things, like "shift recovery" and "useable rpm".

It has nothing to do with....."my big block is better than your small block, or vice versa.

Pity, I tell ya.

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You can talk to some people till your blue in the face and in the end all you got was blue in the face If they don't get it by now 2011 they will never get it and thats why most are still stuck thinking it's the 1970's with .590 cams and TRW pistons. If the last statement offends you then you are who I'm talking about.

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It's amazing that in 2011, people still don't understand important things, like "shift recovery" and "useable rpm".

It has nothing to do with....."my big block is better than your small block, or vice versa.

Pity, I tell ya.

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You can talk to some people till your blue in the face and in the end all you got was blue in the face If they don't get it by now 2011 they will never get it and thats why most are still stuck thinking it's the 1970's with .590 cams and TRW pistons. If the last statement offends you then you are who I'm talking about.

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It's called being "caught up in a time warp". But.. they ARE entitled to think that way and can refuse to "roll with the times", by choice. 1970's, 590 cams and TRW pistons? TWO parts of the previous statement, you can still buy today, BUT the '70's, you can never get BACK to!! FWIW, Do not waste time trying to "educate" those NOT willing to learn OR, at least, listen!

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Hyper, No my 248* cam is not a solid. Its the old MP .509 I am stepping up to the MP .590 though with the new combo. Also #3000

And not to be left behind or caught up in the old time warp. Im going to test a modern comparable Comp cam. It does look much better on paper Im coming out of time warp, maybe.

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That's another thing, to get a decent tire on an a-body you have to start cutting.

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Not on a Duster you don't. I have 275/60/15 drag radials on 15X8 rims with 4.5" backspacing and they fit perfectly with no rubbing.

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Yeah, but a Duster is just a Nova rear with a Valiant front clip..

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My DUSTER is not a NNOVEE i can`t say it it`s a MOPAR please tail me you are a MOPAR guy and you joking because that hurts but cubic inchs makes horse power ..THANKS

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