Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035675
07/26/11 12:33 PM
07/26/11 12:33 PM
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HYPER8oSoNic
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Lets not forget, Jim Scortino, and W7 both stated, HP is HP, with the same HP if optimized it should run the Same ET. Its Physics, right.!
Rehr/Morrison says no, I say no!
I think you might wanna reread my posts.
Two 500hp engines......engine one peaks at 5000 and is down 50hp by 5500. Engine two makes 500hp at 6000 and is down 50 hp by 7000.
I'll take engine two.
Great point!! And, I respect your opinion as well as the example you've provided. The point of higher rpms = more power, VERY debatable. Doesn't WORK for every scenario and WEIGHT is the determining factor. Lesser vehicle weight that the crank moves (in shorter stroke motors), more vehicle speed is gained as rpm increases. Now, if engine #1's TORQUE peak starts early in the rpm scale and peaks in the upper midrange, keeping an average of ABOVE 500+ ft/lbs of torque, geared CORRECTLY it may offset the smallblocks' topend charge. (Hint: 440 Six Pack).
Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 07/26/11 12:35 PM.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: HYPER8oSoNic]
#1035676
07/26/11 01:34 PM
07/26/11 01:34 PM
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Posts: 2,028 Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
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Great point!! And, I respect your opinion as well as the example you've provided. The point of higher rpms = more power, VERY debatable. Doesn't WORK for every scenario and WEIGHT is the determining factor. Lesser vehicle weight that the crank moves (in shorter stroke motors), more vehicle speed is gained as rpm increases. Now, if engine #1's TORQUE peak starts early in the rpm scale and peaks in the upper midrange, keeping an average of ABOVE 500+ ft/lbs of torque, geared CORRECTLY it may offset the smallblocks' topend charge. (Hint: 440 Six Pack).
Ahhhh...but I did not say higher rpms "always" equal more power. I simply state that higher USEABLE rpm is more desireable because it allows for the advantage of higher stall speeds and more gear ratio to accelerate the vehicle.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035677
07/26/11 11:56 PM
07/26/11 11:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
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Great point!! And, I respect your opinion as well as the example you've provided. The point of higher rpms = more power, VERY debatable. Doesn't WORK for every scenario and WEIGHT is the determining factor. Lesser vehicle weight that the crank moves (in shorter stroke motors), more vehicle speed is gained as rpm increases. Now, if engine #1's TORQUE peak starts early in the rpm scale and peaks in the upper midrange, keeping an average of ABOVE 500+ ft/lbs of torque, geared CORRECTLY it may offset the smallblocks' topend charge. (Hint: 440 Six Pack).
Ahhhh...but I did not say higher rpms "always" equal more power. I simply state that higher USEABLE rpm is more desireable because it allows for the advantage of higher stall speeds and more gear ratio to accelerate the vehicle.
That's my point, you didn't say it. with ya, on the useable rpm it makes good sense.
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Sport440]
#1035679
07/27/11 01:55 PM
07/27/11 01:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 781 MD
HEMI472
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How 'bout this though We have 2 cars, both weigh 3000lb, both go 11.00 @ 125mph. One has a B/B, the other a S/B. Which one makes the most power?
Based on Physics.
If you run the numbers on 3 different HP calculaters they should all be dead nuts on But they wont!
Should be simple math right
Based on Physics,
If both combos are optimized, they should have the exact same HP right, its simple Physics as posted earlier by others
Now comes Theory,
Rehr Morrison theorizes, that if you take the Same HP but apply it at a higher RPM with more mechanical leverage. You will be faster!
Since the SB should rev higher in the above said combo. It therefore must have Less HP then the BB since it ran "only" the same number and not faster!
So the same exact HP, wont produce the Same ET, based on this.
I theorized, as others have that the BB with its wider torque/HP band would be faster then the SB at the same HP. So therefore the SB must have More HP then the BB to run the same number!
So the same exact HP, wont produce the Same ET, based on this.
No Doubt Physics are involved, it just seems to be to hard to nail down with just the Simple, "MPH to Weight" , "Power band to Stroke" theorys.
IMO, Rehr/Morrisons theory has merit @ 10,000 RPM with more gear leverage.
But, so does the broader powerband scenario @ 6000 RPM, Take your choice with this 11.00 combo.
For the record, 500 HP @ 10,000 RPM is 263# of torque. 500 HP @ 6000 RPM is 438# of torque.
Please Tell me Tig, that you have some Dyno numbers to toss in. And that the Dyno was the same Dyno, not two across town that are a 100 HP different from one another.
Lets not forget, Jim Scortino, and W7 both stated, HP is HP, with the same HP if optimized it should run the Same ET. Its Physics, right.!
Rehr/Morrison says no, I say no!
These combos dont race down the track at a Fixed RPM HP level!
The easiest Physics of all should be the "weight vs MPH = xxx amount of HP". Why cant All of the various HP calculators agree?
After all, Its simple Physics right.
did any one see the post B1Johnny's 588 B1 PSO Engine on the dyno today?
bring on them n/a small blocks all thats right they cant make that kind of power n/a.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: w7smallblock]
#1035682
07/27/11 09:03 PM
07/27/11 09:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028 Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.
When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.
If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.
Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035683
07/27/11 09:06 PM
07/27/11 09:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225 Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.
When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.
If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.
Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.
i need to hit the lottery
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135 Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1035684
07/27/11 09:44 PM
07/27/11 09:44 PM
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Posts: 2,028 Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.
When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.
If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.
Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.
i need to hit the lottery
All ya gotta do is.....
No wife, no kids, no vacations for at least 35 years and spend every spare penny on car stuff. That'll get most of the way there. Supermarket coupons will take ya the rest of the way.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035685
08/11/11 04:05 PM
08/11/11 04:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275 Desert Tracker
HYPER8oSoNic
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I wouldn't bet on that I think the right combo with p5 heads could be very close to that with 100 less CI.
When I wear out our Craftman Truck knock-off W8 engine that my brother threw together, we're building a new deal with our "beautiful" raw W8s that will get the latest CFE treatment, or....if we can manage to score an XR block with a blank deck, we'll see if it can take an MBE P5, so we can build it in the mid 400ci range.
If that direction is doable, we'll see what a 470+cfm pro style head can do at 4.250 x 3.875, at 10k rpm, with a couple Braswells on a nice manifold.
Maybe we'll see if a small block can get close to 1200 or not.
i need to hit the lottery
All ya gotta do is.....
No wife, no kids, no vacations for at least 35 years and spend every spare penny on car stuff. That'll get most of the way there. Supermarket coupons will take ya the rest of the way.
How true!
"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids" "Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: instigator]
#1035687
08/11/11 11:27 PM
08/11/11 11:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 415 Peru
cbarracuda
mopar
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But you stated Power not ET in your statement....I am just stating the facts that that old statement of you can not replace cubic inches is old school and antiquated.....
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: BobR]
#1035688
08/12/11 09:46 AM
08/12/11 09:46 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112 LONG ISLAND
fishy340
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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.
thats why were mopar guys and not ford
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: fishy340]
#1035689
08/12/11 11:13 AM
08/12/11 11:13 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.
thats why were mopar guys and not ford
Our little Ford was never beaten by any type of Mopar. NEVER. We went to the hemi for two reasons. One, it's a purpose built engine that was intended to live with the kind of abuse we give it and Two, I'm a Mopar guy.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: cbarracuda]
#1035690
08/12/11 11:14 AM
08/12/11 11:14 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
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But you stated Power not ET in your statement....I am just stating the facts that that old statement of you can not replace cubic inches is old school and antiquated.....
Then why does the NHRA have a cubic in limit for all of their pro classes?
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: BobR]
#1035691
08/12/11 04:50 PM
08/12/11 04:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112 LONG ISLAND
fishy340
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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.
thats why were mopar guys and not ford
Our little Ford was never beaten by any type of Mopar. NEVER. We went to the hemi for two reasons. One, it's a purpose built engine that was intended to live with the kind of abuse we give it and Two, I'm a Mopar guy.
easy big fella i was being a wiseguy,,lol
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: BobR]
#1035692
08/12/11 09:36 PM
08/12/11 09:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 415 Peru
cbarracuda
mopar
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mopar
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But you stated Power not ET in your statement....I am just stating the facts that that old statement of you can not replace cubic inches is old school and antiquated.....
Then why does the NHRA have a cubic in limit for all of their pro classes?
Sure, since 1960 and no turbos allowed, all school also.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1035693
08/15/11 05:47 AM
08/15/11 05:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 883 Affton MO
qwkmopardan
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Which one will last longer at the 500hp level? My vote goes to the BB.
The 360 will last longer at the 500hp level. Why? The pistons are 300+ grams lighter, the rods are 150+ grams lighter, the crankshaft is 12 to 13 pounds lighter.
And for the original posters question. Both sb and bb properly set up and at the same weight and the same 500hp, the small block will be the quicker of the two for the same reason that it will last longer, because the lower end rotating parts are lighter, therefore it will accelerate quicker and because the valves and valve train parts are also much lighter, the sm block RPM range will far out extend the RPM range of the big block.
Now you could get some expensive, lightweight parts for the BB but then it will make far more than 500HP.
It is very cheap and easy to make a near stock 500HP 440 with mild porting, cam, and bolt-ons, but it is like a hand grenade with the pin out.
On the other hand it is probably not likely to get 500hp from a near stock 360 with mild porting, cam, and bolt-ons as none ever came factory with any compression, much better chance with a 340, but would be a much more difficult task, [extensive porting] than the big block.
There are some very wicked small blocks that can lay down some unbelievable numbers but if the same effort is applied to a larger c.i. big block it will most definetly out perform the small block. A good example is the 500c.i. prostock engines, Pre--HEMI 99, cause were not talking HEMIS here.
Alot of different views and opinions for a simple post and I see i am very late to this much debated topic.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: fishy340]
#1035694
08/15/11 11:16 AM
08/15/11 11:16 AM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165 Left Coast
BobR
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We went from a very strong SB Ford to a BAE Chrysler based Hemi with hopes of picking up 300 or more HP. What we also hope to get is more reliability and less maintenance costs. Our SB made amazing power but it ate itself up at the boost(45#+) and RPM levels(over 10 grand) that it took to be competitive.
thats why were mopar guys and not ford
Our little Ford was never beaten by any type of Mopar. NEVER. We went to the hemi for two reasons. One, it's a purpose built engine that was intended to live with the kind of abuse we give it and Two, I'm a Mopar guy.
easy big fella i was being a wiseguy,,lol
Sorry. I got carried away.
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