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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: w7smallblock]
#1035517
07/21/11 09:14 AM
07/21/11 09:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
If you take a car with a 500 hp 360 and take it to the track it'll run a number. Now, if you take that same car, pull the 360, stuff a 500 hp 440 in it and take it back to the track (traction not being an issue), it will go faster.
I had a 408" (I know that's not a 360) small block, 11.2:1 cr, 270 cfm eddie heads, torker II intake, cam was 231/237, .560 lift on a 108. Based on others' builds, I would say it was pushing 475-485 hp. The cheap POS eagle cast crank broke after 6000 miles (rated to 500 hp and 7000 rpm!!) ((my own fault, shoulda known better)) so I built a 440. Stock crank, stock rods, KB flat tops, ported 452 heads that were also in the 270 range on the intakes. Don't know what the compression is (don't care, it runs on pump 87 at 5500 ft) 228/236 cam (TQ50), less lift 110 lobe sep. Torker II intake and I dynoed this one. 485 hp, 507 tq. Everything else was the same. Truck is faster with the BB. Same 750 carb as well. 440 needs more timing, sounds pretty good, 408 had a wicked exhaust note with that compression and a little more overlap.
My point being, car being the same, the 440 will start pulling harder, sooner due to the extra cubic inches, no so much because of the longer stroke, which is only .160" longer. Start changing the car to favor each specific engine and the results may be different.
You need to go back and reread my post it says 500hp each with converter and gears to match the motors rpm range. You put a 440 where you had a 408. You also said you never dynoed the 408 but did the 440 so this tells me you got everything out of the 440 being dyno tuned and the 408 was not to it's full potential. Correct me if my statement is not true.
440 would win. Longer power band, better torque and you don't need no stinking stroker crank, high stall or much gear to do it. The 440 will launch better, pull harder and et better.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Sport440]
#1035518
07/21/11 09:33 AM
07/21/11 09:33 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
Quote:
Which one weighs more.. 
A: 1 pound of Lead...
B: 1 pound of feathers...
Maybe that will help.. 
Has nothing to do with "Big or Small" blocks.. 
Chris... 
Heres my comparison analogy
Witch one hits the ground first.., from a 1320' drop!
A: 1 pound of lead..
B: 1 pound of feathers..
Has nothing to do with "Big or Small" blocks..
Mike 
As long as they are in a vacuum they will hit then ground at the same time..
Now, if you put each into identical containers, then they would also hit at then same time.
Even if they didn't weigh they same, everything falls at the same speed. Air resistance makes the difference. 
 Just like most of this thread..
But I do "get it" 
Chris.. 
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035519
07/21/11 09:41 AM
07/21/11 09:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
S/ST 3040
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
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Quote:
440 would win. Longer power band, better torque and you don't need no stinking stroker crank, high stall or much gear to do it. The 440 will launch better, pull harder and et better.
I completely disagree.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035521
07/21/11 09:56 AM
07/21/11 09:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
440 would win. Longer power band, better torque and you don't need no stinking stroker crank, high stall or much gear to do it. The 440 will launch better, pull harder and et better.
I completely disagree.
Maybe because you drive an A-body If not then everybody would be building a high HP 383...I mean you can really spin them right?
which would be more consistant?
Why would it be any less consistant... just because
of high RPM..... NOT
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035522
07/21/11 10:01 AM
07/21/11 10:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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If the SAME HP, at the SAME weight, the engine that has the higher USEABLE rpm can be geared to accelerate quicker and stalled to leave higher, with more average HP during the run on fallback and recovery. A MECHANICAL advantage.
This is the vehicle I'd bet on. Does anyone here think a SS/AH engine actually makes peak power at almost 10,000rpm??? That's where the killers cross at. Now ask yourself why.
You can keep the torque numbers at down low and open a nice taxi company.
Last edited by jim sciortino; 07/21/11 10:08 AM.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035524
07/21/11 10:17 AM
07/21/11 10:17 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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Hypothetical....
Engine A, makes 500hp @ 6000 and drops 50hp by 7000, w/380tq @ 3800.
Engine B, makes 500hp @ 5200 and drops 80hp by 5900, w/450tq @ 3200.
If geared, convertered and shifted correctly, with traction NOT a factor, in the same style and weight car........who wins???
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035525
07/21/11 10:19 AM
07/21/11 10:19 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
theclutcher
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,172
Ohio
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I agree with those in the post that feel, everything else equal, the one with more rpm capability will win.
The more power pulses the better.
Last edited by theclutcher; 07/21/11 10:20 AM.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035526
07/21/11 10:25 AM
07/21/11 10:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Hypothetical....
Engine A, makes 500hp @ 6000 and drops 50hp by 7000, w/380tq @ 3800.
Engine B, makes 500hp @ 5200 and drops 80hp by 5900, w/450tq @ 3200.
If geared, convertered and shifted correctly, with traction NOT a factor, in the same style and weight car........who wins???
those #'s can be flip flopped. Engine A might not make any power until 5400, while engine B has been pulling since 2800???
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035527
07/21/11 10:39 AM
07/21/11 10:39 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
Quote:
Hypothetical....
Engine A, makes 500hp @ 6000 and drops 50hp by 7000, w/380tq @ 3800.
Engine B, makes 500hp @ 5200 and drops 80hp by 5900, w/450tq @ 3200.
If geared, convertered and shifted correctly, with traction NOT a factor, in the same style and weight car........who wins???
those #'s can be flip flopped. Engine A might not make any power until 5400, while engine B has been pulling since 2800???
That's what gears and converters are for.....
At "5400" to 7000, it would still have 1600 USEABLE rpm.....THAT is what wins drag races in N/A cars of same weight and HP peaks.
PERIOD....
So few have dominated drag racing with same weight cars with off idle TQ.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1035528
07/21/11 10:44 AM
07/21/11 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hypothetical....
Engine A, makes 500hp @ 6000 and drops 50hp by 7000, w/380tq @ 3800.
Engine B, makes 500hp @ 5200 and drops 80hp by 5900, w/450tq @ 3200.
If geared, convertered and shifted correctly, with traction NOT a factor, in the same style and weight car........who wins???
those #'s can be flip flopped. Engine A might not make any power until 5400, while engine B has been pulling since 2800???
That's what gears and converters are for.....
At "5400" to 7000, it would still have 1600 USEABLE rpm.....THAT is what wins drag races in N/A cars of same weight and HP peaks.
PERIOD....
So few have dominated drag racing with same weight cars with off idle TQ.
not spillting hairs but say you have a power and torque band of 3000-6000 and your set up, why would a power band of 5400-7k be any better? considering your torque is going to be less. I've seen many more low shifting BB in the 9's than high reving SB's stroked or not.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035529
07/21/11 11:25 AM
07/21/11 11:25 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hypothetical....
Engine A, makes 500hp @ 6000 and drops 50hp by 7000, w/380tq @ 3800.
Engine B, makes 500hp @ 5200 and drops 80hp by 5900, w/450tq @ 3200.
If geared, convertered and shifted correctly, with traction NOT a factor, in the same style and weight car........who wins???
those #'s can be flip flopped. Engine A might not make any power until 5400, while engine B has been pulling since 2800???
That's what gears and converters are for.....
At "5400" to 7000, it would still have 1600 USEABLE rpm.....THAT is what wins drag races in N/A cars of same weight and HP peaks.
PERIOD....
So few have dominated drag racing with same weight cars with off idle TQ.
not spillting hairs but say you have a power and torque band of 3000-6000 and your set up, why would a power band of 5400-7k be any better? considering your torque is going to be less. I've seen many more low shifting BB in the 9's than high reving SB's stroked or not.
First, let me say, I've had/have big-small-HEMI.....I love em' all.
"Seeing" low shifting BBs out ETing SBs is irrellevant. You have no idea the power #s, weights and the million other factors responsible for ET.
We are talking SAME weight AND HP. With that being the case, the engine with more useable rpm can be geared and stalled to create a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to accelerate quicker. 3000-6000 powerband is a non-starter, as shift rpm fallback that wide means you need a new converter guy. So who cares what's happening at 3000???
Do you realize how much more flash stall and rear ratio you can use with an engine that hangs on till 7000 vs 6000??? Remember.....same weight car and peak HP.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035531
07/21/11 12:00 PM
07/21/11 12:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
"Seeing" low shifting BBs out ETing SBs is irrellevant. You have no idea the power #s, weights and the million other factors responsible for ET.
We are talking SAME weight AND HP. With that being the case, the engine with more useable rpm can be geared and stalled to create a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to accelerate quicker. 3000-6000 powerband is a non-starter, as shift rpm fallback that wide means you need a new converter guy. So who cares what's happening at 3000???
Do you realize how much more flash stall and rear ratio you can use with an engine that hangs on till 7000 vs 6000??? Remember.....same weight car and peak HP.
I see your point but WHY would you go that route if you could do it with less stall and gear? Maybe the post should be which costs less to build... anyway both will work just a matter of how you want to get there.
I'm not advocating any route. I'm simply stating the obvious in relation to my interpretation of the original post. I've run around town with a low 9sec 499ci 440-1, have a screw blown HEMI in my Cuda' to get the ice cream home before it melts and as soon as my Dart gets back from paint, we'll be trying out our 417ci W8.
Like I said, I love em' all.
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035533
07/21/11 12:44 PM
07/21/11 12:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
ademon
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
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Quote:
"Seeing" low shifting BBs out ETing SBs is irrellevant. You have no idea the power #s, weights and the million other factors responsible for ET.
We are talking SAME weight AND HP. With that being the case, the engine with more useable rpm can be geared and stalled to create a MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE to accelerate quicker. 3000-6000 powerband is a non-starter, as shift rpm fallback that wide means you need a new converter guy. So who cares what's happening at 3000???
Do you realize how much more flash stall and rear ratio you can use with an engine that hangs on till 7000 vs 6000??? Remember.....same weight car and peak HP.
I see your point but WHY would you go that route if you could do it with less stall and gear? Maybe the post should be which costs less to build... anyway both will work just a matter of how you want to get there.
why are you so hung up on what cost less to build? i have a junk stock stroke/rod 360 with home ported j heads, small solid, torker II and a 750 dp, 3.91 gear, car runs 12.20 with 1.66 60' in a heavy with driver 3460lbs demon. Engine cost $3,400 thats with main studs and line hone all machine work, rods sized etc.. I have beat many 383/440's a couple of the 440's had aluminum heads, i also lost to several 440's etc, so whats your point about cost??? i'm sure i could take this engine apart stick in a 4" crank and pistons for about a grand and drop to around low 11's. With that logic why are you running your big block in that big heavy cowl hood charger? You would go much faster in a A Body or late model Daytona,
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Re: big block VS small block
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1035534
07/21/11 12:53 PM
07/21/11 12:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
jim sciortino
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,028
Trumbull,CT.
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Quote:
"have a screw blown HEMI in my Cuda' to get the ice cream home before it melts"
well what good is melted ice cream?
No good....
That's the reason for the screw.
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