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Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? #1025218
07/03/11 05:57 PM
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crazytrain Offline OP
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My combination is a 383 block, bored .030 with a Muscle Motors 489 stroker kit. I have studs and a girdle in the bottom end, we are using a Bullet hydraulic roller cam with 573 lift, and 242, 247 duration @ .050, and a 110 LSA. 440 Source Stealth heads, Crane adjustable rockers in a 1.5 ratio, and a Mopar M1 with a Holley 750DP. This is all going in a 4200lb car with a Turbo Action 3500 stall converter and manual valve body. I have 4.30 locked 8 3/4 with 29.5" tires. My goal is 600hp and a 12 sec time slip, is it possible with this combo? I had issues the first time this motor went together, and now we are on to round 2, and my problem is that the engine builder has noticed that the rocker arm position in relation to the head of the valves is not constant, and it is actually off by quite a bit(almost on the edge of the valve). I don't know if I just by a quality set of roller rockers if this will solve the problem. So what I am asking is will good rockers solve this issue, or should I buy better aluminum heads, and if so, which ones? It almost seams like a casting defect to me in regards to the heads I have, what does everyone think? I am also torn between the Eddy performer rpm heads, or a set of Indy EZ's. Any and all suggestions and opinions will be grately appreciated.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025219
07/03/11 06:16 PM
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Hot 340 Offline
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I would just bolt on the shafts without the rockers on and use it for a reference to measure to the far side of the valve stem. Find out of its a gradual taper or what. Measure the the rockers up also to find the inconsistency. No way would I just start buying parts till I figured out what was wrong with what I have. Basically find out if the problem is with the heads or the rockers, Im betting the heads.

Last edited by HOT 340; 07/03/11 06:19 PM.
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025220
07/03/11 06:21 PM
07/03/11 06:21 PM
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Jacksonville, FL
Chris2581 Offline
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I took a set of Crane iron rockers off of a set of older 452 heads I had and put them on my Stealths,using the stamped steel hold downs,They fit perfect as they did on the 452's.When I changed the hold downs for billet steel parts,I had to use spacers to get everything back in alignment.It's not a problem with the heads.


Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: Chris2581] #1025221
07/03/11 06:55 PM
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crazytrain Offline OP
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Thanks for the replies, I will definately measure them up before I go buy more parts.

These rockers are held down with the steel retainers, and they still don't line up.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025222
07/03/11 07:14 PM
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Quote:

Thanks for the replies, I will definately measure them up before I go buy more parts.

These rockers are held down with the steel retainers, and they still don't line up.


Crane ductile iron rockers have probally been made by several different vendors over the years I have had Isky, Cranes and Erson ductile iron orkers that fit correctly out of the boxes and some that didn't fit with the stock holdowns Some times you need to trim the tabs off of the stock hold downs and sometimes you have to add spacers between then and the rockers to get the rockers aligned properly, take your time and get them right You can buy small valve spring shims, .015, .030 and in .060 that work great on the rocker shafts and rocker arms as spacers I've spent many afternoons doing rocker arm spacing, grinding and cussing them Welcome to the world of custom engine building Make sure and check your pushrod to head clearances, especially on the intake pushrods before final assmbling also I am getting ready to go out in my shop and remove a Eddy RPM head from my newest motor so I can grind some out of one intake walls due to one pushrod rubbing, this is with a set of Harland Sharp 1.6 ratio rocker assemblys on the same heads that I have ran on another motor Lifter boss alignement isn't exactly the same on every Mopar 400 block


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1025223
07/03/11 07:41 PM
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After reading the replies, I can see I misunderstood the alignment problem,... I was thinking "not enough reach from the rocker" to the valve stem, not "laterally". My bad.

Last edited by HOT 340; 07/03/11 07:44 PM.
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025224
07/03/11 07:49 PM
07/03/11 07:49 PM
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Move the rockers to other positions and see if the
problem moves also... if it seems to be at one end
of a head the rocker stands could be milled wrong
which is easy to fix

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1025225
07/03/11 08:47 PM
07/03/11 08:47 PM
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clovis Offline
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Is the misalignment on the valve left to right (follows the shaft) or is it front to back (intake to exhaust)? I am thinking from your comment of "on the edge of the valve", that you are talking front to back. If that is the case then you can try shimming the shaft. The decision to shim or not to shim is a debate within itself, but if you will add shim to the shaft it will begin to move the tip of rocker toward the center of the valve. You want as little movement across the valve as you can. You ideally want the rocker tip in the middle of the valve at mid lift of the valve. I just finished mocking up some new rockers and here are some pictures of the rockers at zero, mid and full lift (go clockwise).


'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: clovis] #1025226
07/03/11 09:11 PM
07/03/11 09:11 PM
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Make sure the pushrods aren't rubbing the heads. Stealths will have to have some clearance ground for the intake pushrods.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: Hot 340] #1025227
07/03/11 09:24 PM
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I tried switching rocker assemblys from right side to left side to see if it was the rocker assemblying causing the push rod rubbing problems(different width rockers) no luck I then treid a longer pushrod that I had here and bingo, a winner The originals pushrods that I had made for this motor when I was using a set of CAT brand aluminum roller rockers where a little to long I thought for the Harland Sharp rockers so I had Smith Bros make me a custom length set. The old Mantons are 8.663 long overall and the Smith Bros. are 8.400 overall long. The Smith pushrods allowed two to three threads to show under the rocker bodys on the bottom, but they rubbed the heads The Mantons allow no threads to show but there is at least .150 from the pushrod cup to the rocker body and they don't rub so I'm going to use them Sometimes the little things will bite you and sometimes they will help you BTW, RAS(Rocker Arm Specialitys, 530-378-1075) blueprints rocker arms which will fix the length problem, not cheap but diffinetily worth doing if you want all the rocker ratio to be dead on they can also change the ratio to 1.6 instead of 1.42 to 1.58 like I have seen in same set

Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/03/11 09:27 PM.

Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025228
07/03/11 09:43 PM
07/03/11 09:43 PM
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One other question... are you SURE you have B engine
rockers... I had this problem on a A engine... Crane
had them labeled WRONG and they were B-engine rockers
that I put on my A-engine... they sorta fit but were
long on the tip

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: Hot 340] #1025229
07/04/11 01:58 PM
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crazytrain Offline OP
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Quote:

After reading the replies, I can see I misunderstood the alignment problem,... I was thinking "not enough reach from the rocker" to the valve stem, not "laterally". My bad.




You were correct originally, most of the misalignment is from intake manifold to exhaust header, with a slight bit of lateral misalignment.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1025230
07/04/11 02:00 PM
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crazytrain Offline OP
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Quote:

One other question... are you SURE you have B engine
rockers... I had this problem on a A engine... Crane
had them labeled WRONG and they were B-engine rockers
that I put on my A-engine... they sorta fit but were
long on the tip




I will try moving the rockers, thanks. Also these rockers came off of a 440.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025231
07/04/11 02:05 PM
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We used the 3/8 pushrods and yes we clearanced the head before we installed them. I really appreciate all the help guys as this is my first serious engine build.

If I find that there is a problem with the heads that is not easily fixed, what would you suggest for a replacement head, Indy, Eddy, ?, I know there are alot of options, but I would like to get something with excellent performance out of the box with room to expand later and not have to change alot of my existing setup. For example, I have super comp headers and I would like to not have to replace them due to getting raised port heads.

Thanks again.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: clovis] #1025232
07/04/11 02:08 PM
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Quote:

Is the misalignment on the valve left to right (follows the shaft) or is it front to back (intake to exhaust)? I am thinking from your comment of "on the edge of the valve", that you are talking front to back. If that is the case then you can try shimming the shaft. The decision to shim or not to shim is a debate within itself, but if you will add shim to the shaft it will begin to move the tip of rocker toward the center of the valve. You want as little movement across the valve as you can. You ideally want the rocker tip in the middle of the valve at mid lift of the valve. I just finished mocking up some new rockers and here are some pictures of the rockers at zero, mid and full lift (go clockwise).




Clovis, My actual location on a few rockers is close to your first big picture, only mine actually sit farther towards the edge of the valve, closer to the shaft.

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025233
07/04/11 02:25 PM
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Quote:

We used the 3/8 pushrods and yes we clearanced the head before we installed them. I really appreciate all the help guys as this is my first serious engine build.

If I find that there is a problem with the heads that is not easily fixed, what would you suggest for a replacement head, Indy, Eddy, ?, I know there are alot of options, but I would like to get something with excellent performance out of the box with room to expand later and not have to change alot of my existing setup. For example, I have super comp headers and I would like to not have to replace them due to getting raised port heads.

Thanks again.


Two options on fixing the problem, buy a better set of rockers, Harland Sharps, T&D , send yours to RAS for fixing or whatever you decide to do. If you switch heads you may have the same problem still and have to switch rockers also The better heads will make more power on your motor, no matter which heads you switch to, Eddy RPM, Eddy Victors, Eddy Super Victors, CNC ported Eddy RPM, or Indy M.W. EZ heads. I think all of those heads will work with the headers you have now, maybe not If you decide to go to a Max wedge intake port size you will also need a intake manifold to match the heads, if never ends I have started using rockers with 1.6 or 1.65 ratio instead of the stock 1.5 ratio. That is worth some power as the motor thinks it has a bigger cam than it does with the stock ratio Try checking the ratio on your rockers now, set the lash at zero with a solid lifter and then rotate the motor through the complete cycle, put a dial indicator on the retainer(make sure and align the indicator stem exactly with the valve stem) and check the net lift at the retainer If the cam has .400 lobe lift then it should have(1.5x.400 =.600) .600 lift at the retainer, if it has more then the ratio is bigger, if less then it is less. I have seen stock Mopar 1.52 ratio ductile iron rockers that are 1.42 ratio and some have been as much as 1.58 ratio, on the same 426 street hemi motor It pays to know what you have on all race parts


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1025234
07/04/11 06:29 PM
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crazytrain Offline OP
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I was thinking if I have a head issue of going with either the ported Eddy RPM heads, or the Indy-EZ, both with a 1.6 roller rocker arm. If I was to do this swap, how much horsepower could I gain over what I have now say with a new set of 1.5 H-S rockers?

Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: crazytrain] #1025235
07/04/11 08:27 PM
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I have not ran the Stealth eads on any motor yet so I can't say about the power differences bewteen them and the Eddy RPM, sorry


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1025236
07/04/11 09:41 PM
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Mine were back further than that, what you see in the above pictures includes a .030 shim under the shaft. I tried up to .045, but the .030 seem to provide a little less scrub.

You can get a better idea by trying to capture the pattern on the valve tip. I sometimes color the end of the valve with a marker to see the pattern but often times it will not show a good pattern because the check springs do not provide enough tension. I usually go and get a check that has the duplicate behind it, cut off a portion of it and use that, just be sure to run around the edges of the valve with a pencil while the paper is on the valve tip so that you can see where your pattern is in relation to perimeter of the circle (valve tip).

Here is a picture without any shims.

Last edited by clovis; 07/04/11 09:50 PM.

'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
Re: Head and valve train issues, Help! Suggestions? [Re: clovis] #1025237
07/04/11 10:22 PM
07/04/11 10:22 PM
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clovis Offline
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Here is a picture of the pattern.


'75 Plymouth Duster
Phase I 451 906/590/2-660 10.75/126
Phase II 451 Stage VI/590/1050 9.82/135
Phase III 383 906/Victor-Pump gas 11.30/119

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"
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