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Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
#1023110
06/29/11 10:44 PM
06/29/11 10:44 PM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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My '63 Dodge will primarily be used as a street car.
Is there a way to install and use the shoulder harnesses without a rollbar?
I basically want something to keep my torso off the steering column if I get in an accident.
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
#1023111
06/29/11 10:45 PM
06/29/11 10:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
408strokerdart
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,456
Out West
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: Hot 340]
#1023113
06/29/11 11:27 PM
06/29/11 11:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,467
Sydney,Australia
tex013
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 2,467
Sydney,Australia
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i run mine to the parcel shelf
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: tex013]
#1023115
06/30/11 12:19 AM
06/30/11 12:19 AM
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Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Quote:
i run mine to the parcel shelf
Tex
Jeez, really? Those must be some long shoulder belts! 
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: BobR]
#1023116
06/30/11 06:04 AM
06/30/11 06:04 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,396
Pa
Hot 340
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
no.
I'm with you.
Me too. There are "other ways" as the op asked, but only one way to do it right.
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: 85_Ram_4speed]
#1023118
06/30/11 07:53 AM
06/30/11 07:53 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
Quote:
Sure. Bolt it to the floor behind the seat. Wouldnt recommend it but seen it done.
Try that some time and hit the latch for the seat back (as if the seat latch broke in an accident) while your sitting in it and see what happens. ZERO benefit. It does nothing to hold you back. Your shoulders basically become a pulley while the belt is essentially the rope. And all thats happening is the pulley is moving to a different spot on the rope. Do Not do it this way!
In a street car without a roll bar, it needs to go somewhere in the area between the rear seat cushion and rear seeat back----basically the area where the rear seat belts attach---in that same plane line---if not a little above that area---really where there is nothing to attach too. Going to the rear package shelf also works, but its alot higher than it really should be, plus you better renforce the heck out of that flimsy piece of sheet metal with some plates to spread the load. When I worked in a speed shop years ago, we sold harnesses that the upper set was a Y with a long strap on the tail of the Y. It was meant to be attached in the area I am speaking of (rear package tray and below---but way back from the drivers seat). These were basically sold to guys who did SCCA stuff with thier street cars and didn't have to or want roll bars or cages in them. I am not even sure if they sell this type of belt anymore.
Unfortunatly, I truely feel the only proper way to do a set of 5 point belts is to do it with a rollbar or cage. Anything else is really a compromise of your safety. You may be better off trying to adapt the seperate shoulder belt from a later year car and mounting it securly on the piller like they did from the factory. Or retrofit a more modern 3-point system in the car (we did this on my buddies Duster).
I agree with this...however if a race seat is used to where the shoulder belts pass thru at a higher plain than your shoulders, this will hold the person in the seat...yes its not a great idea nor the best...why not just install a 6 point bar and have the added security..
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
#1023119
06/30/11 09:23 AM
06/30/11 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,011
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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There is too little support for the belts, unless you hook them to the original seat belt bolts in the car, if possible. Or weld in supports like for a roll bar. I did that many years ago in a 70 duster. The crotch strap will need a strengthened floor area to be of use. A very large washer ( 2 + inch?) be good enough for a steel floor, NHRA calls for a .083 x 2 x 2 rectangular tube for glass cars.
Last edited by gregsdart; 06/30/11 09:26 AM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: Hot 340]
#1023120
06/30/11 12:53 PM
06/30/11 12:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
Locomotion
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master
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Posts: 5,894
Florida
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Quote:
Sure. Bolt it to the floor behind the seat. Wouldnt recommend it but seen it done.
That would be similar to a set-up using a Y-belt shoulder harness which is no longer legal in NHRA and IHRA drag racing. No sense it having a racing belt/harness system if it isn't going to properly protect you.
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: Locomotion]
#1023121
06/30/11 01:21 PM
06/30/11 01:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 248
Ohio
aquamist60
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enthusiast
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Posts: 248
Ohio
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
#1023122
06/30/11 06:49 PM
06/30/11 06:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,467
Sydney,Australia
tex013
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Posts: 2,467
Sydney,Australia
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yes they are,not a huge amount left.
i run them there as i have a stock bench seat.rules say a maximum angle down,precludes going to the floor.as i understand it this causes the belt to pull downwards possibley breaking or injuring your back.may not be such a worry with a race specific seat,supports belt over the shoulder.
here in Australia the class i run,Super Street 11.00 - 12.99,doesn't require a roll bar/cage.and for street registration with it,rollbar, i would have to engineer its safety plus remove the rear seat if it had a fixed taxi bar.defeats the purpose of running my daily driver
Tex
New best ET 10.259@129.65 .
New best MPH 130.32
Finally fitted a solid cam,
stepped it up a bit more
3690lbs through the mufflers
New World block 3780lbs 10.278@130.80 . Wowser 10.253@130.24 footbraking from 1500rpm
Power by Tex's Automotive
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: tex013]
#1023123
07/01/11 02:09 AM
07/01/11 02:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 172
Champaign IL
LXguy
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member
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Posts: 172
Champaign IL
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And wouldn't it be awesomely cool to be strapped in with a 5 point harness and no bar if the car actually did roll over?
squish
1971 Dodge Dart Swinger
5.9 Magnum, built 904
ET 11.70 / 113 mph
Want to swap a Magnum into your Mopar?
www.magnumswap.com
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: tex013]
#1023125
07/01/11 10:30 AM
07/01/11 10:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
dizuster
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Oakland, MI
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Without a doubt, the best thing you can do is to put a roll bar in the car. This gives you a solid mounting point for the shoulder belts. Protects you in a moderate to high speed crash.
There are a lot of valid points on the ineffectiveness when mounting the shoulder belts without a roll bar. As Cab mentioned, anchoring them to the floor doesn't work well if seat back latch breaks. Mounting them to the package shelf is a very long "run" for the belt and will allow a LOT of movement in a lateral hit. The risk exists for pinning you in the seat during a roll over with the roof crushing down, etc…
But basically what it comes down to is risk management. None of the alternatives mentioned are perfect. But if you chose not to think about them because they aren't perfect, what is protecting you in a 5mph bumper crash. Nothing… you will bounce your face off the steering wheel. What about 10mph, 15, 20 25… At some point there is no doubt that a shoulder belt mounted to the floor would be ineffective. However, there are MANY conditions under which it would be effective.
I'm not suggesting that you should do it any other way but get a roll bar… I'm merely pointing out though that an imperfect system shouldn't be passed up over nothing.
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
#1023127
07/02/11 10:02 AM
07/02/11 10:02 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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There is a way but you might not like it for the back seat use... weld in a cross bar from B-pillar to B-pillar at the proper height and attach to it 
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Re: Safe 5 point harness install without rollbar?
[Re: gregsdart]
#1023129
07/04/11 07:38 AM
07/04/11 07:38 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,468
Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
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Answering the call of the wild
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Yes you can bolt the shoulder belts to the top of the package tray IF you build a reinforcement and mount the attachment points properly. Due diligence is required for this modification. The cars pass "tech" for roadcourse just fine. Yes the tech folks at the road course have inspected the cars very carefully each time and give thumbs up to the install. The shoulder belts must be withing 12 degrees of being flat. The shoulder belts attach to the eye bolts so they can be removed to avoid penalties from the gestapo at seat belt check points for not being worn. There is a very manly 2x2 angle iron reinforcement built into the package tray that you can see from inside the trunk. In the pic you also see a 3 pt manual seat belt for the rear passenger. Sorry we have not crash tested it yet and don't plan on it. 
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