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Infrared exhaust temp gun #2019592
02/25/16 05:34 PM
02/25/16 05:34 PM
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SCATPACK 1 Offline OP
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IF you are using an infrared exhaust temp gun to check the headers;
Do you check it right after you make a run?
What RPM do you check them at?
What header temp would be ideal for the perfectly jetted carb?
I am assuming there is a percentage you want each header tube to read in relation to the other header tubes?
How do you use yours?
thanks
Jerry


Old Geezer Racing
Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2019598
02/25/16 05:43 PM
02/25/16 05:43 PM
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pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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I just bought one of these to ease tuning with alcohol. O2 works ok with gas but I think this will help more and it records the run

image.jpg

1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2019823
02/25/16 10:29 PM
02/25/16 10:29 PM
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TRENDZ Offline
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A gun will only help you in idle areas of the fuel curve. Unless you can drive under load with a guy reading the gun in a dynamic state.
Reading header temps with a gun after a run will tell you nothing... other than if you have a stone dead hole.


"use it 'till it breaks, replace as needed"
Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: pittsburghracer] #2019837
02/25/16 10:54 PM
02/25/16 10:54 PM
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racerx Offline
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Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
I just bought one of these to ease tuning with alcohol. O2 works ok with gas but I think this will help more and it records the run

pitts is this for the new small tire car if so, what fuel r you planning with nos?...........Thaxs

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2019838
02/25/16 10:54 PM
02/25/16 10:54 PM
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Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Originally Posted By SCATPACK 1
IF you are using an infrared exhaust temp gun to check the headers;
Do you check it right after you make a run?
What RPM do you check them at?
What header temp would be ideal for the perfectly jetted carb?
I am assuming there is a percentage you want each header tube to read in relation to the other header tubes?
How do you use yours?
thanks
Jerry


You cant get a good reading with a temp gun.. as
soon as you let off the pedal its cooling.. on the
race car I run 8 egts with a data logger... if you
can log the data you would like in the 1350- 1450
range at full power.. this can change some... I take
ALL my reading exactly 1" from the head surface.. have
been reading at that point even when I was working in
the exhaust lab so all of us would get the same data..
I finally got that as a standard point at work.. took
a while to finally get everyone to agree to a set point..
when I say 1" I measure that with a caliper so each is
right on the money(on the inside of the tube to the tip
of the probe.. thats where the reading is taken)
wave

W9_6.jpg
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 02/25/16 10:59 PM.
Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: racerx] #2019845
02/25/16 11:03 PM
02/25/16 11:03 PM
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Posts: 20,173
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pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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"Little"John

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Originally Posted By racerx
Originally Posted By pittsburghracer
I just bought one of these to ease tuning with alcohol. O2 works ok with gas but I think this will help more and it records the run

pitts is this for the new small tire car if so, what fuel r you planning with nos?...........Thaxs



I bought this for my black bracket Duster and have another Racepak coming tomorrow for the small tire car. I will be running VP to start in the small tire car but not sure what octane yet as I haven't figured out numbers yet. They sell VP by the gallon or barrel at my local track.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2019904
02/26/16 12:25 AM
02/26/16 12:25 AM
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racerx Offline
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thumbs

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020087
02/26/16 12:17 PM
02/26/16 12:17 PM
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Posts: 714
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sr4440 Offline
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When I have a engine on my dyno, I DO NOT use EGT’s to tune a engine. I use BSFC and O2 sensors (with ALL fuels) but even with that, I pull the plugs ever time I make a timing change. I use EGT probes to tell fuel distribution and other things, I never use or heavily rely on EGT as A/F Ratio determination
Using the EGT probes for fuel distribution studies is their greatest value.
You can't ask some other racer what EGT is best for you .
example= no matter how well you tune a 9:1 normally
aspirated engine, its EGT's will be higher than a similar
properly tuned engine with 15:1 Compression Ratio .
....no matter what you do , the 9:1 CR engine is going to have
higher EGTs because it will waste heat out exhaust more than
a 15:1 engine, or any CR higher than the 9:1 CR reference point .

If you asked a group of racers that all had their engines
perfectly tuned and maxed out with the best possible ignition
timing curve and A/F Ratio ....
one racer might say 1350 deg F ,
another might say 1250 deg F ,
another might say 1150 deg F,
another might say 1050 deg F
.....they could all be correct and have the very same A/F Ratios
.....the varying EGTs depending primarily upon Compression Ratio,
Volumetric Efficiency percent % , Combustion Chamber/Piston
top design and camshaft design.

Another thing you have to watch out for is
where are you placing the EGT probe??
1-at 12 o'clock or so ...
2-How far away from heads exh port flange ???
3-How deep is the EGT probe protruding into header pipe diameter ????
4-EGT probe type and response time

all these factors greatly influence EGT temps making
it very much impossible to directly compare EGTs between racers
if no standards are set to probe placement

So basically , if you walk around the pits at a National Event
and ask the SS racers that have CR from 9 to 11:1 mostly ,
they'll tell you 1250 to 1350 EGT and maybe a few at 1450

you ask the ProStock and Comp guys with 16+:1 CR
they'll tell you 1000 to 1150 deg F
maybe some of the very large Mountain type engines
with HiCr tell you 850 to 1000 deg F EGTs

Hi Compression Ratio = Lower EGT temps

Lo Compression Ratio = Higher EGT temps

Correct ignition advance(32+ to 40+ ign deg range)= Lower EGT temps

Wrong ignition advance ( below >25 or so deg range)= High EGT temps
..... burn slower and later in stroke , continuing to burn
while exhausting and if severe...cycling/snowballing into rising
coolant temperatures, preignition, then detonation.




bottom line is you need to tune your car by reading plugs and adjusting from there.


Joe

sorry for the rant


Without Data, you’re just another guy with an opinion.
Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020167
02/26/16 01:42 PM
02/26/16 01:42 PM
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Monte_Smith Offline
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You can NOT tune a gas car by EGT numbers. They mean nothing. It's just a number. Seen stuff run fine at 1600 and stuff burned up at 1200. It's just a number

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020174
02/26/16 01:47 PM
02/26/16 01:47 PM
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Bad340fish Offline
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Is it still a good indicator to use for cylinder balance/distribution?


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: Bad340fish] #2020178
02/26/16 01:52 PM
02/26/16 01:52 PM
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MR_P_BODY Offline
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Originally Posted By Bad340fish
Is it still a good indicator to use for cylinder balance/distribution?


I just use the EGTs for intake work.. as the others
have said.. it varies on egt... just use the MPH and
watch the plugs then see what the O2 says for WOT tuning
wave

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: Monte_Smith] #2020180
02/26/16 01:54 PM
02/26/16 01:54 PM
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pittsburghracer Offline
"Little"John
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The O2 readings from the Racepak worked VERY good with my pump gas combos. Now that I switched over to alcohol and even after switching the Racepak over to read alcohol I'm missing something on the read-outs. I leaned out my carb last October to try something and even with the colder temps it loved it and ran great. Lots of my Friends now run alcohol and suggest I aim for 1150 degrees and forget about it till I have a BIG weather change. Alcohol is more forgiving.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020188
02/26/16 02:02 PM
02/26/16 02:02 PM
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Bad340fish Offline
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One of the guys I talk with about my EFI setup recomends I go with 8 EGTs vs another 02 sensor. It costs a little more money to do that but it gives me more data, but that data needs to be useful to do me any good haha.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020194
02/26/16 02:04 PM
02/26/16 02:04 PM
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Monte_Smith Offline
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More forgiving in what way? Rich is rich and most alky guys run their stuff WAY rich. It just doesn't show up on the plugs or out the exhaust as being rich

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: Monte_Smith] #2020202
02/26/16 02:14 PM
02/26/16 02:14 PM
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"Little"John
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
More forgiving in what way? Rich is rich and most alky guys run their stuff WAY rich. It just doesn't show up on the plugs or out the exhaust as being rich



Its way more forgiving as far as small race day weather changes. Humidity affects it more than anything else once you have the tune right. And you are right about many being rich.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020205
02/26/16 02:23 PM
02/26/16 02:23 PM
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Monte_Smith Offline
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I always hear that, but I don't buy it. From my own experience and observations, a PROPERLY TUNED alky car is no more forgiving of weather than gas. Meaning if the tune is spot on, weather affects both, but as stated, most alky tunes are not sharp.

Good friends with Mike Laws, owner of BLP. His sentiments are the same as mine

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: Monte_Smith] #2020214
02/26/16 02:35 PM
02/26/16 02:35 PM
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"Little"John
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
I always hear that, but I don't buy it. From my own experience and observations, a PROPERLY TUNED alky car is no more forgiving of weather than gas. Meaning if the tune is spot on, weather affects both, but as stated, most alky tunes are not sharp.

Good friends with Mike Laws, owner of BLP. His sentiments are the same as mine



When I took a 2 day head porting class from Darrin Morgan he HATED alcohol and said a properly tuned race gas engine will out perform one on alcohol 9 times out of 10. But for me in a bracket car its a perfect fit. Racing as often as I do high priced racing gas would kill my budget. In my limited run small tire car no problem. Round robin is so easy with alcohol. Make a pass, and turn off the water pump and fan to build heat, less battery drain in the pits cooling, and 165 dollars a barrel.


1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27

Livin and lovin life one day at a time




Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: SCATPACK 1] #2020226
02/26/16 02:50 PM
02/26/16 02:50 PM
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Monte_Smith Offline
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Oh, I understand it runs cooler and is cheap, but those are it's only two redeeming characteristics to me. Darrin is absolutely right that gas makes more power and that is proven time and again. Alky can also be hard on fuel system parts and motors, as rich as some guys run it. Just not a fan unless you have one of those big sliver boxes on top, that is turned with a wide belt.........LOL!!!

Re: Infrared exhaust temp gun [Re: sr4440] #2020230
02/26/16 02:53 PM
02/26/16 02:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
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SCATPACK 1 Offline OP
pro stock
SCATPACK 1  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By sr4440
When I have a engine on my dyno, I DO NOT use EGT’s to tune a engine. I use BSFC and O2 sensors (with ALL fuels) but even with that, I pull the plugs ever time I make a timing change. I use EGT probes to tell fuel distribution and other things, I never use or heavily rely on EGT as A/F Ratio determination
Using the EGT probes for fuel distribution studies is their greatest value.
You can't ask some other racer what EGT is best for you .
example= no matter how well you tune a 9:1 normally
aspirated engine, its EGT's will be higher than a similar
properly tuned engine with 15:1 Compression Ratio .
....no matter what you do , the 9:1 CR engine is going to have
higher EGTs because it will waste heat out exhaust more than
a 15:1 engine, or any CR higher than the 9:1 CR reference point .

If you asked a group of racers that all had their engines
perfectly tuned and maxed out with the best possible ignition
timing curve and A/F Ratio ....
one racer might say 1350 deg F ,
another might say 1250 deg F ,
another might say 1150 deg F,
another might say 1050 deg F
.....they could all be correct and have the very same A/F Ratios
.....the varying EGTs depending primarily upon Compression Ratio,
Volumetric Efficiency percent % , Combustion Chamber/Piston
top design and camshaft design.

Another thing you have to watch out for is
where are you placing the EGT probe??
1-at 12 o'clock or so ...
2-How far away from heads exh port flange ???
3-How deep is the EGT probe protruding into header pipe diameter ????
4-EGT probe type and response time

all these factors greatly influence EGT temps making
it very much impossible to directly compare EGTs between racers
if no standards are set to probe placement

So basically , if you walk around the pits at a National Event
and ask the SS racers that have CR from 9 to 11:1 mostly ,
they'll tell you 1250 to 1350 EGT and maybe a few at 1450

you ask the ProStock and Comp guys with 16+:1 CR
they'll tell you 1000 to 1150 deg F
maybe some of the very large Mountain type engines
with HiCr tell you 850 to 1000 deg F EGTs

Hi Compression Ratio = Lower EGT temps

Lo Compression Ratio = Higher EGT temps

Correct ignition advance(32+ to 40+ ign deg range)= Lower EGT temps

Wrong ignition advance ( below >25 or so deg range)= High EGT temps
..... burn slower and later in stroke , continuing to burn
while exhausting and if severe...cycling/snowballing into rising
coolant temperatures, preignition, then detonation.




bottom line is you need to tune your car by reading plugs and adjusting from there.


Joe

sorry for the rant


Joe
Thanks for the Rant. That is exactly the info I was looking for. The reason I asked about the infrared gun in the first place, the last race I went to, I saw several Chevy guys using the temp guns on the headers and when I asked why they said to determine if it was jetted correctly. I thought they knew something I did not.
But thanks for the above info as it clears up a lot of things and re affirms that I have been doing it the right way all along.
thanks
Jerry


Old Geezer Racing






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