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Re: Anti-Swaybar theory. Quick Lesson please. E-body.
[Re: cudabitten]
#1180662
02/21/12 10:38 AM
02/21/12 10:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Quote:
The front anti sway bar acts like a torsion bar from one lower control arm to the other.
yes. and its's attached to the chassis at the K frame. Rear bar is same idea.
Quote:
The front bar prevents the outside tire/body, from diving too much, while lifting the inside tire at the same time.
Basicly yes. Simplest description is that it helps fight body roll. That's not usually described as 'dive', but it sounds like you have the concept. Rear bar does the same thing but on the rear.
Quote:
A front bar tries to prevent body roll but will actually cause one of the front tires to break free of the road surface during understeer, and a rear bar could cause a rear tire to loose traction during oversteer.
You're mixing things here.
Understeer: When a vehicle doesn't turn even though you're turning the steering wheel. Plough.
Oversteer: When the when the vehicle turns more than you think it ought to. Begins a 180.
A Sway bar will increase the load on the outside tire and reduce the load on the inside tire. This will reduce overall grip when the tires are already near their limit of grip. However, this is often ofset by things like better tire geometry in relation to the road. For street use, you are not driving at the limit, and the car will feel more stable and predictable.
Too big of a front bar in relation to the rest will result in noticible understeer.
Too big of a rear bar in relation to the rest will result in noticible oversteer. If you get into an oversteer situation on the street, especially on wet, downhill or curve, you're pretty much guareteed at least 180 into the curb or ditch.
Quote:
Front sway bars are available as a bolt on after market part.
Yes. But there is some variety to how they address the attachment to the control arm. There also is variety in bar diameter. You want a diameter that is the in the ballpark of the rest of the package.
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Re: Anti-Swaybar theory. Quick Lesson please. E-body.
[Re: cudabitten]
#1180663
02/21/12 11:38 AM
02/21/12 11:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,608
Indiana
EV2DEMON
The Camaro Kid
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The Camaro Kid
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,608
Indiana
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Quote:
EV2DEMON, tell me more about "spring rate". How does that apply to me with front shocks/torsion bars and rear shocks/leaf springs?
A spring is a spring is a spring. The car doesn't care that it has torsion bars on one end and leaf springs at the other. For all intents and purposes, they both do the same thing. Shocks are dampers that have no effect on spring rate, though spring rate will determine what shocks to use.
Sway bars can be used to limit body roll, but a sway bar big enough to make a stock sprung car corner flat will lead to excessive understeer, even more than what the car was originally built with. By increasing spring rate (stiffer torsion bars in this case) to limit body roll/suspension compression, the sway bars can be used to tune under/oversteer based on the rest of the combination.
Now, obviously a classic Mopar has it's limits and will never be a Viper, but by matching components (springs, shocks, sway bars, alignment...) you can end up with a reasonably neutral driving car that will hold it's own against many more modern rides.
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Original E-body Sway bar packages
[Re: Mattax]
#1180664
02/21/12 11:49 AM
02/21/12 11:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Below are roughly what the factory offered in the better handling packages for the e-bodies. These can serve as reference points. 'Cuda with rear sway bar: 0.90 T-bar (111 lbs/in) 0.94" front anti-sway bar 0.75" rear anti-sway bar Heavy Duty rear springs with 4.5 Leaf (132 lbs/in ) Although non-rear sway bar package seems to have been more common: 0.90 T-bars 0.88 front anti-sway bar heady duty rear leafs. A slightly larger t-bar came on Hemi 'cudas and maybe other options. A stiffer 150 pound/in rear spring came on Hemi and maybe other options A .88 T-bar and 115 lbs/in leafs came on 2 barrel 383s Someone who is into restoration will know exactly the options and what came with what. But this should give you some idea of what you're aiming for. Most important, if you stiffen the rear with more spring rate or rear sway bar, you definately want to increase the front t-bars and sway bar at the same time. You pretty much can't go wrong increasing the front t-bars to .90 -1". But if you're staying with smaller t-bars than that, be conservative on the front anti-sway bar. edit: Fixed decimal places!!  See AMX's post below
Last edited by Mattax; 02/21/12 10:47 PM.
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Re: Anti-Swaybar theory. Quick Lesson please. E-body.
[Re: cudabitten]
#1180665
02/21/12 02:16 PM
02/21/12 02:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Irving, TX
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These guys have given you good info.
There is an easy way to think about (anti-)sway bars.
They are indeed a spring running side to side. Being springs, they don't want to be twisted. They want both sides of the suspension to be at the same height.
If you compress one side and they try to compress the other side to match.
Pull one side down and they will try to pull the other side down.
As for how they affect handling, think of them as tightening up the other end of the car.
The front bar makes the rear tires bite harder. Rear tires don't turn so you're going to go straight.
The rear bar makes the front tires bite harder. Front tires turn so you're going to turn too much.
Too much of either bar can cause trouble. it's all about balance.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Original E-body Sway bar packages
[Re: Mattax]
#1180666
02/21/12 03:00 PM
02/21/12 03:00 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,658
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,658
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Acually that would be the following; .940" not .094" front anti-sway bar. .094" is about the dia of 7 strands of red hair. .750" not .075" - same thing as above .880" not .088" - same as above Gotta watch those decimal point placements. 
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Original E-body Sway bar packages
[Re: shakerjoe]
#1180668
02/21/12 05:58 PM
02/21/12 05:58 PM
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Irving, TX
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Treat it like tuning an engine. Only make one change at a time unless everything's blown up or used up.
Many times you can find what you're looking for without throwing thousands of dollars worth of parts at the car.
What do you want?
Firmer ride with less squish to the suspension? Go for T-bars.
Ride is fine but you don't want to lean? Go for sway bars.
Ride and roll are okay but you want less bounce? Go for shocks.
Take a step here then a step there until you get where you want to be.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Anti-Swaybar theory. Quick Lesson please. E-body.
[Re: cudabitten]
#1180670
02/21/12 07:04 PM
02/21/12 07:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
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Marlboro, NY, USA
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Pretty much everything covered -- well! --above. Just my 2¢...understeer is reduced with speed, and any oversteer increases. For the 99%, you want enough understeer so that there's always some. Yes, a neutral or slightly tail-happy car can be loads of fun (and fast) if you have the skill (and runoff room...), but for general use, as I said...
Rick
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Re: Original E-body Sway bar packages
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1180671
02/21/12 07:05 PM
02/21/12 07:05 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,658
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Posts: 96,658
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Leaf spring car as the leaf will 'bow' more on the inside as the weight is taken off, same as when you jack up the rear of the car with the floor jack under the center of the pumpkin/differential/ rearend, the leafs will bow and pull the rearend forwards a little, and yes it is a measurable amount. As the front of the springs are bolted to a non-moving anchor.
That will still occur with an anti-sway bar as the links will still allow that shift as the link bushings will 'pivot' in their holes and the link will move forwards and rearwards somewhat.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Original E-body Sway bar packages
[Re: amxautox]
#1180672
02/21/12 07:08 PM
02/21/12 07:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
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Quote:
Leaf spring car as the leaf will 'bow' more on the inside as the weight is taken off, same as when you jack up the rear of the car with the floor jack under the center of the pumpkin/differential/ rearend, the leafs will bow and pull the rearend forwards a little, and yes it is a measurable amount. As the front of the springs are bolted to a non-moving anchor.
That will still occur with an anti-sway bar as the links will still allow that shift as the link bushings will 'pivot' in their holes and the link will move forwards and rearwards somewhat.
But the rear swaybar should reduce lean on the rear of the car and reduce that phenomenon, no?
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Re: Original E-body Sway bar packages
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1180673
02/21/12 07:11 PM
02/21/12 07:11 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,658
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,658
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Quote:
Quote:
Leaf spring car as the leaf will 'bow' more on the inside as the weight is taken off, same as when you jack up the rear of the car with the floor jack under the center of the pumpkin/differential/ rearend, the leafs will bow and pull the rearend forwards a little, and yes it is a measurable amount. As the front of the springs are bolted to a non-moving anchor.
That will still occur with an anti-sway bar as the links will still allow that shift as the link bushings will 'pivot' in their holes and the link will move forwards and rearwards somewhat.
But the rear swaybar should reduce lean on the rear of the car and reduce that phenomenon, no?
MAYBE a little, but I wouldn't count on it as the strength of the flat large spring is greater then the hardness and friction of the link bushings pivoting in the hole in the ends of the bar and around the link shaft.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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now Leaf Springs and rear axle steer
[Re: Fury Fan]
#1180675
02/21/12 10:44 PM
02/21/12 10:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,645
Phila. Pa.
Mattax
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Re: Leaf Springs and rear axle 'steer' Although pretty well answered, the steer of the axle can be changed. For passenger cars, Chrysler set the springs up flat at normal ride height so the rear tracks in on a turn. You may find this MTCS pamphlet from 1968 interesting. http://www.imperialclub.org/Repair/Lit/Master/253/Page02.htmProbably should start a new thread on leaf spring suspensions...
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