Quest for 1000 hp, slow going!

Mainly due to not getting parts, like intake valves, pistons. The new build is using the crower 4.315 stroke ccw crank i have had since 2005. It started life at 4.15 but was offset ground. I ordered 572-13 385cnc heads , pistons and valvetrain from Todd at Marsh Performance, along with a BME aluminum block in 4.500 bore. Todd has been great to work with, but like everybody else is waiting on parts.
My heads are going to get a little extra TLC to add a few more cfm flow.
The cam will be the same Mike Jones inverted radious cam that made 926 hp with 440-1 heads. The 3X intake got ported by Wilson manifolds, the compression will be as close to 15/1 as i can get, rings are .9mm(.036). Line2line skirt coating on the pistons, dlc coated .205 wall piston pins. Molnar 7.1 long rods, 2.2 rod bearings.
I have a 4.5 inch vacuum pump pulley which will turn the pump as fast as suggested max.
Terminater fuel injection, methanol fuel . I am hoping to see 1030 hp out of this deal, and my dart should weigh 2870 at the line. Hoping to run sub 8.50.

Is the terminator EFI the throttle body system or port EFI? If it is a throttle body system do you have a carb to compare with it?

I hope you get your numbers!

That 1000 hp level is tough in a typical normally aspirated engine.
extra CID, vacuum pump, windage control, gas ported pistons, Wilson ported intake, etc.... These things all help.

I think you have a chance. Some engines make 930 others 1030 and they may not seem all that different in "specs".

Are you waiting on all those parts? Where do the heads and prep stand?

Terminator pic from Ronsfuel website.

Yeah slow going for parts almost everywhere. We haven't run a Mopar yet that was over 1000 hp but I'm sure it is just a matter of time. We have a 632 inch BB Chevy on the dyno this week and it should be over 1000 hp. It is a single 4 bbl cast intake with a 1250 carb. The engine could use a bigger carb but we have to use what he has since otherwise he'll need to wait 6 weeks for a new carb.

HA, I forgot about THAT Terminator Fuel Injection.....no need to have a carb on hand for comparison I am sure!

thanks!
The injection is constant flow mechanical. No electronics involved. This type of injection is dirt symple, pretty much. The pump is engine driven at camshaft speed, and pumps twice what the motor needs. Eight hoses to nozzles of . 038 size, and a nineth hose with a pill of . 080 to dump off the excess fuel. A tenth hose is set up to open at above peak torque as pressure rises, pushing through a spring loaded poppet valve with a small pill sized to keep the afr in range.

time will tell, right? Right now we are waiting on intake valves and pistons. Heads wrre cnc'd, then off to get some extra tlc.

Good luck.
Thing is gonna fly.
Where are you getting weight off from?

2x3 frame, heavy ms cage and 265 lb driver.

Buddy of mine just had a 572 built at Best Machine. They wanted to build one of their cookie cutter engines with 1030 HP. 600-13 heads. He had them detune it, lower compression ratio, smaller cam, made 925.

Yep. I get that philosophy. But some of us just want to go faster. I have built some great bracket motors over the years. But, the itch to go faster has always been there.

Boost

^^^^

I would bet you get your 1000hp +.

Its certainly not impossible to get over 1000. Here is our pretty pedestrian 600-13 BBM out of our dragster, single 4bblunder 14-1compression and a smallish cam. Dynos are dynos, some are happy some are not. So FWIW the car has been 4.53 153 here in Las Vegas at 1920lbs with a 4.10 gear. We are in the middle of making it a bit more racey now with a couple points of compression and more aggressive camshaft. Will be posting results of that deal when and if we ever get the parts.

Currently along with the redo of this one we are working on a new Predator bracket piece for my truck. Time will tell what it makes but we expect it to make over 1100.

Al, i assume that was a 600 cube motor? Great powerband. I am guessing the Predater deal will be well above 1100.

I just put fresh valves in my junk. Took a week to get them from Manley

Yes this one is 622" the torque and where it all occurs certainly gives away the stroke, but this thing is very conservative on compression and camshaft. Also needs a much bigger carb.. But I have made more power at 525" with a B1MC, never scanned the sheet though. Again dynos are dynos but that car went 170 at 2975lbs. Did ET worth a poo as it was set up for stop racing. The Predator will likely make more power than this 600-13 piece at a lot less cubes. But it is a better head, similar internals on each, both built for bracket and stop racing.

Got a little more done today. Finished installing alL four brake calipers after draining the whole system.
Finished installing the belt drive. The belt drive wasn't too tough, just a challenge to not hurt the upper seal for the cam. It has to slide over a key on the cam adapter and i hope it will relax because it did show a mark after installing and removing a couple times during mock up.
After measuring all four open /close events, it came in at 110.5 on the intake and 117 exhaust. A half degree advanced at zero on the cam plate. Nice.

Lots of duration at . 200 tappet lift. 205 intake, 213 exhaust

Is that .050 before closing ABDC or what

Nice work Greg, keep plugging along. We're all in the same slow boat because of delays beyond our control.

cam card shows . 050 lobelift points. Lash ramps are long.

Finally got all my parts, today I measured pushrods. With 10.720 deck,.051 head gasket, heads cut to 74.5 cc, (572-13) Isky EZroll bushed lifters and standard core . 510 intake lobe lift .920 base circle cam, pushrods were ordered 10.080 long intakes, 10.050 long exhaust 7/16 dual taper from Manton. I think the cam is a bit tight, so that may hold up progress till I get that corrected. Not sure how long it will take me to get this thing back together. My beautiful bride of 30 years is battling serious illness, and obviously she gets the attention she needs, this deal comes in a distant second. But this is my sanity project, helping by giving me an outlet from time to time.
Link to companion thread,,,;

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthread...news-guess-potential-hp.html#Post3061757

Compression works out to 15.61/1 with 74.4 cc heads, positive volume of 3.8cc on piston, .051 x 4.600 bore head gasket, piston above deck . 012 cold. 4.50 bore, 4.560 stroke for 580 cubic inch. Hoping to see some great torque numbers from 6300 rpm up, as converter flashed to 6200 with the 15/1 550 cube 440-1 head combo.
As the aluminum block warms, the piston to head distance should grow . 008 to . 010, dropping running compression to 15.16 and raising piston to head clearance from . 039 to . 047 to . 049. Comments welcome.

Hope your wife gets better. Will add her to my prayer list

Thankyou Thelma!

Building a 572 like you Greg, so following you closely

What are your goals? Fuel? I am willing to share any info I can. 0M if you like.

I am too
I'm waiting on the crank to get balanced; it is an older used KB top fuel crank with full counterweights on every throw an it has a lot of heavy Mallory metal welded into it for previous balancing.
The machine shop is telling me that they can't add any more heavier metal to it now so I need to get a external balanced ATI balancer for it
Of course, no one has sone in stock and ATI does not have them schedule to be made this year
I have ordered that shell and the hub separately, their supposed to be available now, and I'm hoping to be able to make one soon
It is 14,4 to 1compressionn with B1 heads and two kits of NOS on a sheet metal tunnel ram with two Mark Sullens E85 Dominators carbs
I'm hoping and expecting 1000 HP with motor only and about 450 HP with the two kits on
Scat forged steel power adder H beam rods with L19 bolts with Icon coated shelf pistons and hellfire rings
Come on balancer parts

Ive got my heads at BES now getting their excellent workover. He said it would take them 5 months. UGHHH. They said 900hp, is very doable, and that’s more than adequate for my bracket motor. I’m wondering how big a carb, or maybe 2 instead of one. I’d post a picture but ill have to have my son help me. I’m building Indy tall deck.

10.080/10.050, Why would you not split the diff and order them all 10.065 ?

pushrod length is critical, or more critical, the higher the lift . Jesel rockers need to be no less than 1/2 turn from the rocker, and not over 1 1/2 turns out. That is only a . 040 window. If the heads or block get cut, or I choose to run my other rotating assembly, I may not be able to stay inside that 1 turn window on the adjusters.

Keep grinding away Greg! You'll have ignition before long and the HP goal met buddy! Nice chatting the other day - always a great conversation! Thoughts and prayers for Sandy/you/family.

Wes

We just got dad's 588 with 572-13 385's dyno'd and picked up from Best Machine a couple weeks ago. Pretty similar build besides we are running a 1250 gas carb setup. You should get close to your goal depending on the dyno.

do you have cam specs and fuel type? Compression?

Did you get to find out what that motor would make at peak RPM on the HP?
I'm wondering why the oil pressure started going down before the motor reach peak HP?

Cab, I bet it is the vacuum of 14 inch, which would drop the observed on the gauge by about 7 psi.

it looks like the vacuum readings stayed pretty steady to me
Same thing on the BSFC dip, I wonder why? The AFR on both sides stayed pretty steady, maybe a little rich on the BSFC depending on which fuel they were using

Greg, you could always have Brett Miller build you a raunchy 1000hp small block.

This was posted in jest of course.

Let's see, 75 lbs less on a frontend that will be too light by 200 lbs, already, 30 Gs for the motor? It would be fun!

They asked we didn't share all the cam specs. We'll just say that Lift is over the mid .800's and duration close to 300. We brought our own fuel, Renegade 116 Pro +. It made power identical to VP C14 & is about $100 a barrel cheaper. Motor ended up real close to 15.5 on compression, but chambers were clear down to 58cc for that.

They fought oil pressure with vacuum on this motor from the start. Dad had sent them a brand new Moroso enhanced 4 vane, and it was struggling to stay in the 50's down lower on pressure. Talked to some different reputable builders and they said they have had motors that just don't like vacuum pumps and never can figure out why. They made a pull without the belt on the pump and pressure started in the upper 70's and made it into the 80's later in the pull. So we just sent them his old 3 vane we have been running. And no, they never pulled it any farther, kind of 1 of those caught up in the moment things where I wish we would have had them so I knew how many hp difference per 100 it was going to be in case I missed a shift by just a little (As far as consistency goes). Will see how it runs hopefully tomorrow, hope the chassis handles it ok and we are able to get it down the track with rebound adjustments on the shocks and not get into 4 link bar changes.

Well, back at it. A little at a time. It is hard to focus at times, so i am taking it slow. Got the cam dialed back in, after finding i had to clearance the block more for pushrod clearance. I didn't expect this, after running half inch and 7/16 pushrods in my megablock. But it took removing about . 060 in a couple of spots for intake pushrods, less in others. Not sure how 440-1 heads and pusheods would fit, never checked. Compression will be 14.6 to 1. The cam is in at 111 int C L, where Jones spec'ed it. Valve to piston clearance is very generous, at . 180 intake, .165 exhaust.
The . 9 mm rings are definately delicate, not like the older combos! At . 036 thick, i worried about breakinng one! But onward to finishing the assembly. Then dyno time!

Glad to see you back at it Greg. I had to clearance my INDY block as well for the intake pushrods. Hope to see you at the track this next year.

Does anyone know why - what the ( X ) is for in Greg's picture on his CNC heads ? This is also on my CNC heads but never knew why Indy placed it there . Gary

Keep plugging away at it Greg! Excellent results and HUGE smiles coming.......

Here is the place I clearanced my BMP block for 7/16" dia pushrod clearance, B1 offset rockers (1.7), and lifters with the offset pushrod seat.
It took a couple mockups and checks to get this right. Even the amount of rocker adjuster sticking out changes the clearance.

Jim, same exact clearance problems. I missed your post, so had to back up. Pull the cam and crank, grind away, clean up, re assemble. Wes, thanks for the encouragement. It has been a battle to mentally get going after losing the love of my life, 😥, but i will get going again. Jeff, that sure is the goal! See you at BIR?

I was once told by Indy or an Indy dealer it stood for "experimental"

Inching forward, slowly. I managed to get the shortblock rotating assembly together, and found the passenger side deck is . 007 higher than the drivers side. Cylinders 1,3,5,7 are - . 007 to -. 010 deck height, cylinders 2,4,6,8 are -.014 to -.017 below deck. I swapped cylinders 2 and 3 rod and piston, but things changed less than . 0005. So i have . 036 head gasket for the low side, .027 for the other side. So thats the way it will be.
I found i had a left over circlip when i installed the last piston. What the hay? So, after fretting about it, and not taking a chance, ( i had found an extra clip days ago) i started to pull the pistons and rods back out to find the piston missing a lock. I got lucky. It was #1 cylinder, first one i pulled.
I was surprised to see the 1.600 long ARP rod bolts only needed 80 to 82 ft lb torque to reach . 0064 to . 0065 stretch.
Tomorrow i can start putting the heads together, and hopefully the rest won't take to long. No dyno date set yet, but i should have everything i need finally!

It's coming around nice! Keep busy Greg, nice work.

Wonder what they were experimenting on ?? I have seen this on several sets of heads going back a couple years . Gary

Thanks for the response .

The torque is what it is. That is why we use the stretch gauge.
FWIW, my Molnar 7.100" rods with ARP 2000 bolts (1.60" under head length) needed 87 ft-lbs to reach the spec stretch.

Jim, i use an old beam type torque wrench, which might explain the torque difference.
Got the heads together, I switched to intake springs from pac , 948 triples in at 2.060, 350 lbs seat pressure. Exhausts use Pac 1247 springs, in at 2.005, with 330 seat pressure. Matt at PAC said i am good to 8500, but i never want to twist it beyond 7600 rpm.
I ordered parts to go dual lines from pan to pump since i wanted to upgrade to a new hose, figured i might as well add the second line.

I want to caution everyone reading this pos that I had one of the same Molnar ARP 2000 rod bolts overstretch on the length at 55 Ft. Lbs.
Those instructions siad to use the torque plus 30 degrees more travel. I called Tom and he ended up saying to use between .0057 up to .0064 stretch method instead of using a straight torque setting. I called ARP and they told me to call Tom, they said his bolts are custom made to his specs and they wouldn't say anything else about replacing the bad one. I ended up buying a complete set of those bolts from him and started torquing them to 35 04 40 Ft. lbs to begin with and then work my way up to get between .0059 up to .0063. My message is start low on the torque settings and go up to from there to get the lengths you want in 3 to 5 Ft. Lb increases
That one bolt was the only one that did that I suspect the heat treating was bad on that one ONLY

Cab, sounds to me like your plan of starting at 55 ft lbs will show a bad bolt instantly . If it is stretching a lot at 55, the material isn't up to spec, period. Sound right? The steel bolt is just a lineir spring, and bolt to bolt should be quite close in stretch per lb of torque, given properly lubed bolts.

Got a bit closer today. All that is left is to mount the fuel pump and vacuum pump, prime the oil system,
install distributor and rear cam plug. Check the lash again and make sure oil is flowing where it needs to be. Then off to the dyno!

Good to hear.
I look forward to the dyno numbers.
As you said, don't forget that rear cam plug...
From your other thread/topic you decided to build the 550 CID not the 580, right?

Well Greg, it sure looks like it should make 1000hp

Those 572-13 exhaust ports look much bigger than 440-1.
What size are yours ?

Thanks Dwayne! I sure hope it does!

Jim, my header flanges are for the 572-13 heads, and gaskets will be fit to the ports if need be.

Yes Jim i decided to go with the center weighted crank and less stroke. My main thought was the weight of the 580 rotating assembly. I hope the CW crank will produce less bore distortion and provide better ring seal as a result. The thought just crossed my mind, how many new v8 performance motors have center weighted cranks? I bet almost all.

Greg glad to see you are back at it and getting close..

As for CCW cranks look at any professional race engine in any racing series From F1 to WOO to Trophy Truck and you will find them in every engine. You main bearings and caps will thank you...

I have notes on several intake port sizes, but not much on exhaust ports. Some port jobs will be a little different, too. I was going to compare your finished exhaust port dimensions (572-13 CNC 385) to what the guy put on my B1 heads.

Thanks Al. Once i quit overthinking it, the cw crank was the only choice. Your comments carried a lot of weight. On top of it being easier on bearings and crank, i assume it is much better for an aluminum motor.

Jim, 572-13, 1.90 wide, 1.60 tall.

The rest is easy, right? Well. Not quite. The Jesel belt drive spaced out the crank trigger pickup bracket. No oroblem. Make a spacer, done. BUT the injection pump is now interfering with the extra oil line for the dual pickup system. And i have no idea why the 255 mm belt that drives it is now too tight.
That port in the block right by the 2nd line i believe is for use with that line? Anyone know what fitting goes with that port? It isn't pipe thread. Uses an O ring and straight threads. I ordered a fitting to extend out farther from the pump so maybe the 2nd oil line can then fit in front of the fuel pump to tank line .
Trouble is, that fitting won't get hear till January. So , i plan on capping the 2nd line if i have to to get this thing on the dyno.

FWIW Ihave never run a dual line just singles for me. Current engines are both -16 singles except the blue car which is a single -12

It is AN-12 straight thread O-ring. This is my labeled block hardware for the BMP aluminum block.

[quote=gregsdart]The rest is easy, right? Well. Not quite. The Jesel belt drive spaced out the crank trigger pickup bracket. No problem. Make a spacer, done. BUT the injection pump is now interfering with the extra oil line for the dual pickup system. And i have no idea why the 255 mm belt that drives it is now too tight [quote]

This year while working at a race engine shop I have installed 5 Blower Shop "baby blowers" on big BBC engines, all over 600 ci. Some were iron blocks, some alum, all were after market. Each one was just a little different. The blowers and related parts (pulleys, brackets, ect.) were mostly bolt on, but when it came to vacuum pumps, fuel pumps, water pumps, crank triggers and plumbing for each, that was a different song. And, with most of them going into dragster chassis, I had to be mindful of the radiator clearance up front.
Easy, bolt on. Yeah, right!

Brian

i didn't think there was such a thing as a "bolt on part".

Only on the assembly line, most of the time

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4tCuwodqqSj7joLbA
A little massaging on the fuelpump bracket got me what i needed for clearance for belt tension. I was able to run the second line under the oil pump body, allowing room for my injection pump. Luckily i didn't tear much hair out in frustration😊 i don't want to lose any more! So now i am very close. Bolt the waterpump and hoses on, put a lifting plate on the intake manifold, install the rear cam plug. Wait for R&R to open monday to get a dyno time!

Good work. Saved from using more AN-12 hose.

Dyno day is jan4, 8am to? I am starting a thread on what hp will it make?