Victor Gen2 Hemi heads, exhaust pushrod clearance, info

Here's a pictorial clearance study comparing clearance with 2 different rockers, mocked up using a generic 3/8 MP pushrod.

Both shown with the valve closed. The clearance opens up/improves as the valve opens and the rocker moves.

The one with a little bit of clearance is with a stock replacement MP rocker, I believe 1.52
The one with no clearance (or at least, less than a strip of notebook paper) Is with an Indy steel roller rocker, I believe 1.55

Seems to make sense it is due to the different ratio.

I'm not too worried about it, I will use the stock replacement rockers as I collected them for awhile... and will continue the project.
After sitting down with dividers and a caliper, comparing the ports to stock heads, I see why the Masters pointed me towards these victor heads for the big ci engine. They added an amazing amount of volume compared to stock. Under load, the pushrod will deflect away from the tight spot.

Without extra parts, a guy would be stuck. Being that this is a tube, it's not like I can just grind for clearance.

I haven't looked into whether tapered pushrods are available with a cup on top, and I'm kind of doubting anyone makes that...but does anyone have info on that topic?

Manton makes single tapered pushrods
On the stock rocker arms make sure and check every one of them for clearances, those stock rocker ratio vary a bunch
I check around 4 different sets of stock rocker arms back when I raced a street hemi in NHRA stock, I check all the rockers on the same cam using the same pushrods on one side of the motor NHRA allowed .484 lift at the intake valves and I think .464 on the exhaust, my finding where the exhaust varied from .430 to .530 and the intakes where as bad as the exhaust rockers where at the valves, the ratio where no where near each other
I've seen similar findings on other after market BB race rocker arms also, expensive ones too

Manton or Smith Brothers will make single or double taper pushrods for you. It looks so close I don't think they will fit. Let one of them make you heavier wall 3/8's instead.

I'm no expert,but stayed in a Holiday Express once
But I wonder if an offset pushrod seat would impove that. Terry Manton told me years back the PR needs only 10 thou clearance

Terry told me before he pass that it was okay on a 426 hemi for them to rub a little, three burnt up single tapered exhaust pushrods later I ground more clearances into the KB aluminum street hemi block so they didn't rub at all. No more issues after that.
The bad part was some one else had bought all the parts but the pushrods and they bought a set of comp Cams solid roller with the pushrod seats .250 lower than standard, wrong parts for the Hemi blocks

I've been told any rubbing at all will burn them up. I have straight 3/8" Mantons in mine, .134" wall IIRC. They are HEAVY.
I did a TON of grinding on my KB block to get them to clear. The heads were ok.

Ran out of time, still need to measure and make a judgement.
Picked up my inherited pin gauge set last night, it's nice to have a dedicated tool and all, but will probably continue to use guitar strings
as I have for quite a few years.

Trend seems to be the only company who lists where the taper starts relative to the tip, and they have 2 choices...
The largest dimension they have is 1 & 5/8, I would need more than that, like well over 2 inches, to clear the pushrod tubes.
I'll try some others but it doesn't look like going tapered will help.

Offset won't work as they have left and right, but not up and down (this would need to go up, or towards the center of the block slightly).
I know custom lifters can be had, but no thank$.

Standard pushrod seat height won't work...regular solids and Comp 829 cause worse clearance.

Best I've found is with 3/8 pushrods and +.300 seat height lifters...best mockup is with Comp 861s/oilers
but I am pretty sure the 87019 non-oiler would also do the trick.

Might look into some Manton 11/32" for a hair more clearance, if they aren't cost prohibitive.

I sure don't agree with Edelbrock's statement "all stock stuff works/is compatable".
It's not going to clear the tube with a standard hydraulic or solid flat lifter and 3/8 pushrods.

I appreciate that. Rubbing: No thanks.
(Especially not on a thin tube pressed in)

My block seems good (Although I've only checked one cylinder), but it's tight to the tube pressed into the head.

The Edelbrock heads seem like a costly change of plans, but after seeing them up close, I see why Dwayne and Chuck both steered me that way.

You didn't say if you were using a hyd, solid or roller cam. Lets says you are using a solid. I'm reaching for straws here but the Barton/Trend tool steel lifers are made to hydraulic length. This raises up the lifter cup around .200". Would this help you? I'm not sure. I've put together a few of these Victor Jr. motors and they always fit for me but I'm using Stage V rockers. YRMV. I know it's a reach. Makes me want to go home and mock up another one I have and see if I have the same problem.

Hey Rick, this one is getting a solid street roller.

The rocker type, and the ratio is probably the biggest thing.

If I'm looking at it correctly, the shorter the "arm" on the pushrod side (higher the rocker ratio), the more likely the pushrod will hit the bottom of the tube.
At least it seems this way comparing 1.52 to 1.55+

I've got good piston to valve clearance (now that I'm on my second cam), my intake valve relief has a little extra to accomodate the Edelbrock valve, so
that all seems good to go.

Pretty small bump in the road really, but something tells me I'm not the first to encounter this.

I should have mentioned that I ended up using Comp +.250 raised cup rollers on that motor on the ones rubbing, which I think was the intakes . I should have done all 16 instead of just those eight but I was trying to keep the cost down for the owner

so Zippy what was your resolution for this? Im have clearance issues too with a 3/8 pushrod and a victor head. Im thinking some .110 wall 5/16 will work. Using a small solid roller with 829b oiler rollers.

Tapered pushrods?

The interference is too far from the adjuster for those.

Push rods must clear thru all the heat ranges an engine will cycle thru...No rubbing, or you can start replacing parts right away...

Most of my push rods rub, not enough to deflect the rod but they do touch...and on purpose. The benefit of a rubbing push rod is it will dampen/stabilize out the bowing characteristics while in motion. I use 7/16th Double tapered Push rods from Manton.`

To recap, I had interference problems mocking up with the Indy high ratio roller exhaust rockers
(have seen this problem over the last few years with a couple engines on social media too...it's fairly common.
Those engines were big time pro built deals so I kept my thoughts to myself).

Stock replacement rockers did not have pushrod clearance problems.

So, the fix was simple...I used the stock replacement MP rockers on the exhaust side, sold the Indy exhaust rockers for half what the set cost+ship,
kept the Indy high ratio on the intake. This kind of thing drives some people nuts, but it's a HEMI and historically it's super common to use different rockers
intake and exhaust.

Tiny bit of experience under my belt, tiny bit of knowledge, got all my money back, I'm calling it a win.

Having the gut feeling that was probably the path I'd go with, I went and scrounged up a pile of stock replacement rockers and checked the ratios to investigate the
"hemi rocker ratios are all over the place" folklore. I did find a shred of truth to that old tale and believe it is true to a certain extent....in the sample I tested OEM stock rockers were the worst....the perennially overpriced MP replacements were definitely better and measured higher.

Here is the thread about checking OE style rockers/ cherry picking Click here

It seems now the main problem is getting Edelbrock to ship any kind of part for a Chrysler.

I might even buy another pair of Victors just to have them on hand, but they apparently aren't making anything.

I found that out the hard way years ago, if they rub at room temps fix it

How much room under the rocker for a longer pushrod? How many threads are showing under the rocker arm? Meaning can you back out the ball a couple or three turns and gain pushrod length?

That's good thinking there, I did I play with that, and my mockups showed me there was nothing to be gained where I needed it.

Using the trusty Jesel adjustable checking pushrod I tried up to 4 or 5 threads sticking out, I
also tried "the cup just barely clears the underside of the rocker" (meaning no threads sticking out at all)
and neither one really made a licks worth of difference in the area I needed it.

It was worth a try anyway, especially with the 572 being my first Gen 2 Hemi and all/not knowing what to expect.

The easy fix was to not use Indy exhaust rockers on that config

Set it up with around 1 and 1/2 sticking out if I remember correctly.

This is an older thread.......I fired this engine up 4-26-2020, it all worked out.

Oh,good. Would you buy these heads again? Gathering parts for a not stock 426 incher right now myself. I need to decide on heads.

Yes, I would buy them again for another similar built 572...(if Edelbrock would actually make and ship any, which they don't seem to be doing).

They're a pretty good value for someone who wants pretty big numbers out of the box without changing anything.

I am not 100% sure I would want them for a smaller cubic inch street combination, though, and would probably ask one of my
favored Horsepower Gods/Gurus for their opinion before proceeding. As (I believe) Edelbrock's own marketing states....designed to be
used on 528ci or larger.

I completely agree with you on the value of these,for ready to go and not "stock" per dollar spent. i just cant bring myself to buy a stock type mp aluminum head when there are these and the indy sr's and hi po's out there. It would forever be in the back of my mind wondering how much power I left on the table.

I have a pair of Edelbrock Gen 2 Hemi heads on order through Hughes Engines who is setting them up for me. Is it possible to have these push rod channels opened up a bit for more clearance? I'll put it on my list of questions to ask Hughes when / if Edelbrock finally starts up production again.

Thoughts on clearancing prior to assembly?

"i just cant bring myself to buy a stock type mp aluminum head"

I haven't personally had access to the Chrysler parts system since '13, and can no longer physically check it out myself,
but if I can believe what folks have said offhand it seems MP killed those part numbers off anyway, and that's probably no longer an option (unless you find
someone who already has them). So, one less thing to worry about I guess.


"Is it possible to have these push rod channels opened up a bit for more clearance?
Thoughts on clearancing prior to assembly?"

Sure, most anything is possible (Whether it is practical or not is yet to be determined).
It's a thin brass tube pressed in. You can potentially press or cut the tube out, machine the hole bigger, hope you don't get into water and so on, and
press something else larger in. You can CNC the holes into an oval shape, and then custom make 8 special oval shaped tubes to press in.
There are many possibilities. Just nothing that I would do.

The engine was not fully assembled in the pictures shown, it was one of many mockups. Multiple mockups and corrections were done.

With the Victor Jr, one thing a person is not going to do successfully is stick a carbide bit in there and cut away at the casting to create some more clearance.
Again, It's a brass tube.

Instead of the above, alternately, an exhaust rocker other than Indy also seems to take care of it.

I just built mine using Vic jr’s. Barton told me to run his 1.5 rocker on the exhaust. No clearance issues what so ever. .700 lift roller.

Yeah, those were also recommended to me per discussion with local race engine builder/guru.
Before I purchased my heads I was fortunate enough to be given a guided tour of new and old TD/Barton rocker setups and an explanation of how they've evolved,
they are super nice, but out of my league financially as I needed to spend that few thousand bucks on Sheetmetal for the car
more.

Indy shaft roller are the only one I know of with the interference problem shown here, it's just a certain combination of parts to watch out for,
thread was intended for information.

After a few more years, are you still satisfied with using the stock 426 non roller tip rocker arms with the Victor heads? I finally have my BMP 4.5 bore block, and have Victor Jr. heads on order... the current plan is a 10.5:1 572 for my fake 71 Cuda.

I'm very satisfied, but the statement is pretty meaningless because all the engine has done is hold down the engine dolly while I restore the car I'm installing it into.

I've fired it up without installing it, seems to run well, but that's about it, it's mothballed until the car is ready which will be awhile.

I have 7/16 D.T. X. 165 wall in my Hemi with Mopar (Edelbrock) heads with over .800 lift, street driven and strip with the RBRE rocker system with no issues shifting at 7600 thus far. The RBRE rocker system helps take out so much of the push rod angles and corrects most of the geometry.

Those blue rockers look so much sexier than the natural finish they have now.

Thanks, I like them. They accessorize and match my car nicely since it is B5 blue. Their first batches were blue, then I believe they went to red, then I am sure due to cost they decided to leave raw (and even charge more for them). Lol.
They are now over $1000.00 per set more than they were back when I bought mine.

Do they fit under somewhat stock appearing valve covers? To anyone with even minimal hemi knowledge my car will never be anything other than a fake, but to a typical 5.0 mustang owner I want them to believe it is a stock 426 with a '3/4 race' cam. I am going to be using iron exhaust manifolds, mechanical fuel pump, clutch fan, etc...

Note: I feel it is fair for me to call a 3/4 inch cam a '3/4 race' cam

I am not ready for a 1 inch cam, commonly referred to as 'full race'

Do Stage V roller rockers on an Eddy Jr head have the same push rod clearance problems, I believe their ratios start ar 1.6 but not sure if there are 1.5s or 1.55. The TD are very nice and a friend has them on he 572 Hemi in his race car with the spray bars. I believe both oil via push rod and spray bar is available from T&D just the price is higher that many want to pay. Stock Type rocker from Mopar can be an experience testing to see how close they are in Ratio. Indy is a no for this type of set up. Those guys from Canada HemiGuys that sell both a Roller and Wide pad type of Hemi Rocker anyone used them on a good roller hemi set up with lots of spring pressure and did they survive. Looks like I am going to mock up and see if there is a contact problem in the Push Rod Guide. It was easier to run a 426 Cast iron motor then to go big 572 with Aluminum. Stage V heads out of FHO likely does not have this problem do to the size of the work Banning does on the push rod bushing. This is a good read and anyone used these parts BMBlock, Eddy Jr. Heads should make this a read before ordering or assembling.

I've put several together with Victor Jrs and Stage V's. (Their standard 1.6) The engine on my test stand has that setup today. It is really, really close but I've never seen any witness marks on teardown.

Where can somebody find this read? Thanks

We used T&Ds setup for the Victor head. No spray oiling here. It's thru the cradle. Very nice. Used a factory ratio rocker arm on exhaust side. No clearance issues. Very quiet. I'd take it over the Barton setup tbh.

T&D makes the Barton set up also.

Yes. They do. These are set up differently tho

What I am saying is this thread is a good read. When Banning lived in Bewley, Ontario we would go there a lot. He would put those tubes in the Stage V Heads but were much bigger for a larger push rod.

So the problem seems to be on the Exhaust side of the push rod tube. Lowering the ratio seems to fix the problem with some rockers. I wanted to go the Stage V rockers way and might have to give Banning a call and see what he thinks and if Stage V has a 1.5 exhaust Rocker or something atleast under the 1.6. The final thing will be to mock up the motor and take alook at what clearance is there. The only problem with T&D is the price but you only want to do it once and not have to do it twice if something happens. If you go with a stock Factory type rocker then who would sell the most accurate ratio or is it just buy and hope things add up after checking. Quality control at it best.

I would think the 1.5 ratio would bring the pushrod even closer to the tube and my Stage V 1.6's have near zero clearance. I assume it will take Tim quite a bit of time to get rockers going assuming he is going to make those.

Glad you found the thread useful and good reading.

I tested everything I had way back at that time, as well as I could:



https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2667860/1.html

I'd encourage anyone to check everything out that they possibly can, first hand in combination with their own parts, and later sell off whatever pieces don't work
or find a home for them where they do work.

The TDs solve alot of problems, but for me they are a "maybe later" kind of an item at best.
I'd like to see how it does as-is, first.

I totally agree check everything even if a builder says this is ok. Been going through boxes of Race Parts I have had for a long time and I do not like much of the New stuff I bought years ago. Just like buying new even if it costs and have to look into the old and the new to see what is best. One reason I am looking at roller rockers. I know the stock rockers survived in the old days with big rollers and others have said they would be OK but no insight into the new Eddy Jr. head with the Wide pad rockers, but over kill is some times the best way to go. Maybe looking at the T&Ds and make one purchase that takes care of everything. On my friends 8 second car T&D have been on it for years, maybe 20 not sure but a long time. Cleans then a couple of times a year when he checks to see if the rockers have picked up any bad things like extra clearance after a weekend. Now not sure if I would go with the spray bar system like his or the regular system.

Next thing and I have started with this is to see who makes the best roller lifter and one that can be rebuilt, but that seem to be a feat to itself.

Zippy I have read a lot of your post on moparts. I enjoyed be educated on blocks that you worked with in the past.

If we did not enjoy this so much no one would build a big Hemi but the final result is what we strive for.

Still would like to find out more information on the HemiGuys rockers out of Canada, both roller and oem. You would think they would list information when they post on E Bay. If they did and they stood up their sale would be much greater. I might have to take a drive and have a talk with these guys They are said to be not that far from me.

I have to agree, there is not enough info out there on the parts that even used to be available, let alone everything that is available today.

Somewhere, somebody has used every rocker and every cylinder head combination and knows the ins and outs of it all, including the norris and dli stuff that is getting pretty rare
these days.... but those guys aren't talking or thinking about it anymore because they switched to T&D

I feel like I want some experience with OE style stuff first.

I deliberately didn't do quite a few obvious things to my 572 so I can step it up later, if desired...and that may not even happen....but my situation is, the entire car needs to be addressed first.