Engine Masters 440-6 vs 426 Hemi

On right now!

on where?

Motortrend

If they are dead stock then it will be a snooze fest. We've tried to run a few Hemi engines on the dyno with stock distributor and stock carbs and they usually don't run very well. It takes a lot of work to find factory original parts that actually still work.

They used a stock cam in both same grind, headers on both.
On the 440 an Edlebrock Aluminium sux pack intake 3 Holley carbs not sure if originals or the replacements.
The Hemi had a non stock 2x4 aluminium intake but said it was close to stick but had both AFB and Holley 4150 patterns so ran 2 Holley carbs.
Both non ported iron heads. Think 440 was 906 and the Hemi were Mopar Performance but had original valves from an old Hemi.
Was he said 440 with stick replacement type poisons was 9.5 ish but Hemi was heavy forged and was in same neiborhood compression.
Stock Mopar Performance Hemi block they said was available since 1994.
Stated they wanted close to same compression ratio on both, same cam grind both and non ported heads on both.
Not exact but what they could do. Steve said the same heads on a 383 and was on the money at 335HP just like MA said it should be. But fell short of the 375HP on a 440 on the past
This time they worked on the 440six well.

i thought i heard them say they used a hydraulic roller in both with the same grind, maybe i heard wrong.

Maybe the vacuum carbs held back the hemi down low too.

My 6 pack GTX used to kill my Hemi RR for the 1/8, then the hemi started rolling. So that's consistent with this test and what everyone for decades said as well.

If I remember correctly...

The 440-6 had TRW 6-pack pistons in it. The cam was a Comp hydraulic roller with 236° intake duration, and something like .549" lift. The exhaust duration was 5 or 6 degrees more, and the exhaust lift was very close, but not identical to the lift on the intake side. The Hemi had a cam (also ground by Comp) that was not itself identical to the one in the 440, but once the rocker ratios of the Ray Barton Hemi rockers were taken into account... the *effective* lift and duration of the Hemi cam was very close, nearly identical to that of the cam used in the 440-6 for this shoot-out.

The heads on this 440-6 were some of the first heads that Dulcich himself ported, many years ago when he was first learning to do port work. He mentioned that he had used this very same set of heads on various different short blocks over the years, and that they still had factory valves in them. Nothing fancy... iron heads with beginner's port work.
The Hemi also had iron heads on it, just as it came from Mopar Performance as a crate engine, back in the early mid-90's.

Looking at the dyno graphs after the pulls for both engines were complete, they pointed out that the 440-6 got into what seemed to likely be a bit of valve float near the upper end of its pull. The Hemi, however, was pulled to a higher RPM (seems like it was 5 or 600 more RPM), to bear witness to how the larger port heads/smaller cubic inch engine could actually come to life later in a quarter mile drag race, as many times the Hemi did... overcoming its competition later in the 1/4 mile... somewhere after/beyond the 1/8th.

One interesting thing about them pulling the Hemi to the higher RPM was, the dyno graph for the Hemi showed no signs or indications of any valve float. So, I'm assuming (guessing) that they used different valve springs/pressures on the Hemi, or perhaps this stability could be attributed to the difference in the Ray Barton rockers/rocker ratios that were run on this particular engine. Both engines (I'm assuming again) would have been equipped with identical hydraulic roller lifters, eliminating a variable there.
Seems like the valves in the Hemi would be a bit heavier than those in the 440, and if that is correct, this is another variable that was overcome by either a better valve spring, or the cam profile being ever so slightly different due to accomodating the Hemi's different rocker ratio(s)... or perhaps, a combination of these differences. Not trying to make rocket science out of this, but....

All in all, I really enjoyed and appreciated this episode.

Is it accurate that the 440 wedge was a passenger car engine design adapted to racing and the Hemi was a race engine design adapted to passenger car use? (Passenger car meaning available to the public like any other car)

Remember the 4 door Hemi Scott Smith was involved with?
He posted pictures of as found just dirty and made to run drive again. And later all done up.
Street Hemi offered on a good bit of cars but was a whopper of an option price wise.
The old days of order it and we make it

More or less, yes.

The cams were Comp rollers. Heads stock etc except the hemi had roller rockers.440 made tons of torque low But as stated the hemi had large heads and made HP up high Compression ratio was pretty mild for both.Both pretty impressive for such mild builds.Rocky

If you happened to DVR this....do you have a season and episode number? Thanks!

Still NOT stock, “let’s give this 440 a big boost and the Hemi nothing, to see which is better“. Make believe.

The test that they did was a little different than most. Rather than try a shoot-out between the 440 and the Hemi as they would have been stock 50 years ago. They spec'd them in as close to identical to each other as they could to see what each one's strong and weak points were. I don't remember seeing a test done quite that way before.

And they basically showed what many of us have always known; the 440 typically runs out of steam by 6,000 or so but had the torque down low while the Hemi likes to pull hard up top. The one thing that surprised them was the huge level of torque that the 440 developed.

Personally, I have always felt that the 440 was the better choice for many (maybe most) casual hot roders back then. It's was torquey, would run the same most every time, and all most guys had to do was mash the throttle and look for traction. The Hemi however needed a lot more attention to it's tune to keep it running at it's best. And the driver needed to 'drive' the Hemi the right way to get the most out of it. Then there is the gearing issue along with the impact of the track length. The Hemi wasn't at it's best in the 1/8, a place where the 440 and other big inch engines shined. And a lot of Hemis left the factory with compromise gearing that hurt their performance because they usually had to do double duty both as basic transportation as well as racing.

Imagine a Hemi with a 727 and 3.23 gears running in the 1/8th with a casual driver. Not hard to see that a 440-6 in the right hands could send the Hemi home early.

Sorry, no I don't. But I believe it is the newest episode and the way they usually do it is to show the latest episode first on Friday night and the follow it with the previous week's episode. So, it should be on again next Friday night.

That's what I heard. It peaked my interest as I have a hydraulic roller in my 511, although I have changed to solid rollers. I was very suprised at their results.
Also, I thought I heard them say that the 440 had a forged piston.

Disclaimer: My hearing isn't the greatest.

For comparison, in 69-71 I had a A-12 , my buddy had a 67? Plymouth Hemi.
These were both pretty much factory set-up when we did some street racing in 69, (timing and jetting were
played with)
Both 4:10s, street tires.

First couple of times we raced, I put a car on him early, he came back on me slowly, but couldn't
catch me before the 1/4.

He went home, changed to 4:56s and reversed the out come, but I couldn't close on him at all.

My car ran 13.6s at 106 consistently at a local track in that tune.

Pretty much what that film alluded to.

Joe

S6 E12

the 64 & 65 race hemi was detuned cam and compression wise for street use in 66.
the 440 was basically a torquey street engine upped to [semi] race status with the A12's.
do i have this correct ?

Good analogy...

Joe

I would have liked this comparison more if the hemi didn't have a Stage 5 single plane intake with who knows what size Holley carbs and $4000 Barton rockers. Put a stock dual plane intake and carbs and stock rockers on it and rerun the test. Even better, put that cam in a stock streethemi. That would be more comparable with Dulcich's 440. Heck the intake and rockers on that hemi are worth more than Dulcich's whole engine.

I want to see a comparison where they make the CID identical, then there won't be no comparison. People always ignore the fact the hemi was down 14 CID, that alone would be close to 20 LBS TQ and hand the advantage to the hemi as down low it would no longer lack the TQ advantage the 440 had as well as running away as the RPM went up.

The six pack cars were made to compete with the BB Chevy on the street
So where the street hemi cars

Interesting comparison, seemed to me, but they left power on the table with only 9:1 on the Hemi.
I'd prefer to see each one built more to their strengths as you would with a fresh build, but it was still good data.
The low-end TQ comparison is pretty valid; my Street Hemi was pretty "average" on the butt-dyno under 3500 RPM.
After 3500 though, it rapidly charged towards 7500 with a vengeance, and was still pulling when I'd hit the next gear.
On the dyno, it pulled 490 TQ, 540 HP before the AFBs were sorted out. Pretty decent in 1988.
Mostly stock, but + .060, 10.8:1, old-school Crower solid FT (.547 lift, 300 adv duration is all I recall now), headers, MSD, 8-qt Milodon pan & ported stock heads.
My 440s with similar mods have been snappier under 3500, which seems to be the heads (Eddys or Stealths, but not as much port size & CFM of course as the Hemi).
My 512 with Indy EZ top-end was pretty much a blend of both architectures; one of its strengths was being happy with a 3.23 gear, where the Hemi wanted 4.10s for all-around street/hwy use.
None of them were what I'd call fussy to maintain - so I'd say that knock on the Hemi's rep is from poor tuning.

The test is interesting, but I have my own opinions of course. Number one, why would anybody in their right mind run a Hemi at 9 to 1 compression? It makes absolutely no sense unless you live in a third world country where you can only get some kind of junk fuel. Number two, why would you try and run identical cam profiles on two engines with such radically different cylinder head configurations. Putting a dump truck cam like that in a Hemi is like requiring an Olympic runner to breathe through a straw.

I think a better test would be put together a couple of bone stock engines, blueprinted to the original published specifications. No porting, no trick valve job, no fancy valves, stock pistons, rods, cranks, everything. Just put in some good rod bolts for insurance. Blueprint the assembly process to make sure that manifolds and carburetors and everything fits properly, blueprint and tune the carburetors and distributors, to make sure that each engine is in optimized stock configuration. Then dyno test them that way and and see what you get. Then add camshaft with matching springs and headers. Rather than try to equalize, put in the optimum cam and header for that particular engine. Then test them again and see what you get. Then pick another modification, like intake manifold and carburetors. Again, don't equalize, optimize for the combination. Then you get an idea of what the stock long block is capable of for each motor. Then if you want to take it further add compression and head porting. But don't equalize compression, pick an octane and optimize compression for each engine to run on that octane.
Then I think we'd have some testing and a comparison that is actually really meaningful. Of course I realized that this is a TV show, and they had to pretty much run stuff that they had sitting around. They had no incentive whatsoever to do a test such as I suggest. Just the fact that they are doing the comparison will bring in enough viewers to satisfy the producer.

Everybody's speculation that the Hemi is slower on the first half of the track and faster on the top end of the track in my opinion has nothing to do with the power band / torque curve of the engine. That entire fallacy assumes there is no transmission and that you are making a drag strip run like a dino pull in high gear. Everybody seems to forget that the engine will hit red line three or four times by the 8th mile.
I think it has more to do with gearing and traction on street tires. Obviously, in all iron Hemi is very heavy. Getting one off the line on street tires can be a challenge. And most street Hemi cars aren't geared deep enough. If everything is optimized, including gearing, traction, and removing driver error, the car with the better power to weight ratio will always win in a drag race.

The third thing is that a Hemi needs constant tuning. That is a total crock. It takes No more effort to keep a Hemi in tune than any other car with dual points, solid cam and two carburetors. It's no big deal whatsoever and once it is dialed in, the need to change or adjust anything is very seldom.


Edit: top side it looks like you and me were thinking the same thing and type in the same thing at the same time!

Joel, you're talking real world results and testing.
Not like the "theory" guys that make up these tests and get paid to write their results
I always take each one of these articles with a grain of salt, you have to remember that the people writing the articles are writers that may or may not like or know anything about cars and motors

Well the one thing no one mentioned was that the 440six is going to go in Steve's charger that is at the farm.
So looks like a great Roadkill episode or 2 is on the way.
The 440 with six-pack was what he had on hand as is for his own car.
So yes you can say the Hemi was under built but was needing to be close to what the street driven 440 he has planed. If that makes sense?
Anyway I think it was a 71 or 72 so it should be a blast when they drop it in.
And the way he drives I hope they have lots of spare tires when they test.

Still makes no sense to me. That was the right cam for a street 440. Not for the Hemi.

When the 440 in this test hit is limit, the obstruction was the heads. But it was actually a very well matched combo. What is the the one thing that sets the Hemi apart? The heads. But the heads weren't tested in this test, the cam was a bottleneck that didn't let them breath. The heads and the intake are both capable of delivering way more, so it was a very mismatched package.

thats the first thing i thought, how do you have the same cam profile for a 440 and a hemi, if it were a good cam for the hemi it would have not been for the 440, i think they said the compression was about a half point lower for the hemi which did not help it, they did not prove anything that we all did not already know, but it sure was entertaining.

They also keep saying no torque on the Hemi, well dump the clutch at 4500 and see what engine wins. Real world times with our 68 Dart drag car, 440 had stock heads .030 over 11.1 pistons and mild roller 590 cam 850 DP car ran 6.80s. With stock bore Hemi 12.1 pistons 550 RB roller cam stock heads and cross ram intake two hollys same vert ran 6.60s 1/8 mile. Now 1/4 440 was 10.90 Hemi 10.31 poping running out of fuel, now that’s a back in the day bonafide test. Car and motor (440) weighed 3100. Kenny was 250, This was 1980

Rock , Flip Over

This test was done back in June of 2021

Snooze

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2934829/1.html

the Street Hemi girnd cam DC used to sell seemed to work pretty good in my 413.

are you talking about the Mopar Purple Shaft 284 street Hemi grind cam in your 413?
If so you may want to try another better grind, I hated those cams in wedges

I am not sure that is a fair assessment of Freiburger, Dolcich, or Brule.

These 3 guys are not your typical automtive press. All three of them are VERY sharp and very experienced in high performance engines. But still, they are producing a TV show. They have deadlines and budgets and producers.

I loved the Mopar 280/.474 cam in my 9.5 compression 440. Ran it in a 67 b-body with 3.91 gears, factory high stall convertor, HP manifolds, Weiand 8009 intake with a 750 Holley. Sucker ran hard. 13.00 @ 117mph. Ran hard enough to get me a $1275 ticket one evening.

My personel experiences with that cam back in the late 1990s was really bad, I degree it for the shop in the customers 1968 Charger 383 automatic car, that cam wouldn't make enough manifold vacuum idling at a stop light to stop twice, NOT GOOD It had a nasty sounding idle and didn't pull real hard down low or anywhere else I degree it where Mopar advice on that cam back then I think they replace that cam part number with a similar grind several years later to make it better
The shop owner removed it after driving it once and put in a "R.V" cam that would stop it okay.
The 19-year-old owner wrap it around a power pole within 6 weeks of getting it back
I never sold another one of those cam kits, NEVER

Ditto, had one in the mid '70's, no idle vacuum. IIRC, it was discontinued and replaced with a different "hemi grind" because it hurt the low end so badly and the top end was hardly improved over the stock cam.

S:6, E:12

That was back in 88 I ran that cam. The power brakes worked just fine as did all the HVAC controls, those are vacuum operated. It worked just fine for me, but I wasn't racing it. Just a daily driver. It was a stick car with 4.10 gears so that probably helped.

Didn't seem to have an issue lighting up the N50-15 baloneys I was running either so I'd say the low end was just fine.

I’ll have to pull my road test reprint book. It had a 68 GTX shootout with a hemi and a. 440. Stock for stock. I do recall they tried the hemi with a 4.30 gear as it wanted more.

These guys have a constraint of available parts to throw together a show. Can’t overlook that.

Several people here seem to have confused the old "Hemi Grind" cam with the 284- 484 purple cam. Not even close to the same cam.

That sounds like the P4120235 cam, which I did not have.

The closest example you are going to find are the Pure Stock drags. There they'll be blue printed with a stock lift cam and 2 1/2" exhaust.
Doug

These are results from Mid Michigan Motorplex 2021. The quickest 9 winners.

Bob Karakashian; 1970 Plymouth ’Cuda; 426ci; 4.10; 11.816 sec @ 117.30 mph

Jeff Morgan; 1969 Chevrolet Camaro; 427ci; 4.10; 11.905 sec @ 118.65 mph

Menzo Dodge; 1972 Buick GS 455; 455ci; 3.90; 12.256 sec @ 111.31 mph

Tom Cannon; 1971 Dodge Super Bee; 426ci; 4.30; 12.323 sec @ 114.86 mph

Mike Marple; 1969 Plymouth Road Runner; 440ci; 4.10; 12.363 sec @ 113.72 mph

Jason Dalrymple; 1971 Plymouth ’Cuda; 440ci; 4.10; 12.456 sec @ 110.70 mph

Eddie George; 1970 Dodge Challenger; 426ci; 4.10; 12.511 sec @ 115.22 mph

Charlie Lombardi; 1966 Chevrolet Chevelle; 396ci; 4.56; 12.517 sec @ 115.51 mph

Dan Kruger; 1969 Dodge Super Bee; 440ci; 4.10; 12.518 sec @ 109.28 mph

I agree Doug. This is about as level of a playing field as you're gonna get especially for the relative results. Only if we had race weights to go with those trap speeds.

There is almost no tech at that event, except for a P&G on some cars. Some are a lot more stock than others.

Found it. 68 GTX hemi vert vs. 68 GTX 440 hardtop with ac. Both 727s. They changed the gears and tires around after running them stock for stock. Car Life Feb of 68 issue

I know it’s not a six pack, but this is as stock for stock as we will reliably get a test.

I have no idea why they are sideways.

The article concludes “the hemi is the fastest standard car in the market.”

Emasculated Race engine vs great street engine:
Not really a shocker: Test will predictably favor the great street engine every time.

Race engine in it's first, original configuration as intended by Chrysler Engineering
(A990, '64 Circle track versions, etc).....The street version was a band aid to satisfy sanctioning bodies.

What I see is:
"We're just going to pretend the street version came out first and call that "the legendary".
in spite of awareness of history, knowledge Chrysler never wanted to sell them for the street, at all, and so forth.

Two points of compression, crossram manifold, probably another 30 degrees of duration/big solid flat tappet stuff=All came first and were the original intent....
these things just might affect horsepower ever so slightly don't you think? That is "the legendary" package swept under the rug for this lil' show.....

There is so much that is improved on with modern parts selection, for both engine types.

No matter what, I say: Have fun and build whatever it is you want while you can... because the day will come when you can't.

I say that Dulcich ported the 906 heads on that 440

I rode in a 69 six-pack super bee , it was all stock but the cam, and it was no joke !

I tried the six pac on my 64 440 race car, stock 74 engine with cam. Blocked the bleed sec hose and jetted up a little, ran no better than the 850 DP on the Torker. Now racing class the six pac is better than that AVS. My Plym had 3800 vert, 4.88 gears and 14-32 slicks so no problems there. I agree with Zippy, de-tuning the Hemi and pumping up the 440 is not real world. All about port velocity and volume, after 3500 the Hemi says “can we play thru”

. RiGHt oN ZipsTEreR!


.

I did the same swap for a friend with a iron six pack intake and stock 1970 carbs, the six pack was .15 ET quicker and 2.0 mph MPH faster than the Torker and Holley
Every Mopar BB that I have increase the fuel and airflow to went quicker and faster, from a single four barrel to a six pack to a tunnel ram

I ran 1/8 miles so 1/4 would probably see the gain.

You may be correct
We ran 1/4 mile only back then in SO CA. that was long before we got all the information on the time slip like we get today
When I put the six pack on my old pump gasstroker motor I got the car to go the fastest by making the outboard carbs. open quicker by using a bolt in the return slot on the center carb to force the outboard carbs open immediately at WOT

Engines with a hi velocity (smaller ports and inline valves) are easier to make great street usable power- the 440 and the Buick Olds and Pontiac 455s. The Hi volume head motors definitely need to tap into their hi flow high RPM capability afforded them by their BIG ports and valves- the Hemi being the king here with the BBC and 351 4V Cleveland down the list from the Hemi. To own a 426 hemi powered car that runs 12s 13s 14s is simply not even touching where a Hemi shines. But a Hemi car regardless of ET is cool.

Iron 429 CJ heads have been over 900 HP, not bad.

I remember a topic here on moparts a long time ago. Maybe more than 10 years ago. Age old question posee was:" Who was the quickest between LS-6, Hemi, Stage 1, Hurst Olds 455, 440 Six pack and that hot rare Pontiac 455 from 1971?" Lots of stories of street racing back in the day of the Hemi being king as well as the Hemi losing. Period magazine tests were posted. A member her simply replied this- or similar. "Its 1971. All the heavy hitters are present, bone stock and compared. ETs will be similar. Now put $500 (1970 dollars) into each car and run them again. Hemi for the win." The 429 Ford was not mentioned in this particular topic. In fact it usually is left out of bench racing discussions maybe because of its rarity? Ford was weird. They had potent components- (heads) but the as available to the public total package was neutered to the point of handicapped. 351 Boss ran great though.

It the broader picture over years of results that you need to look at. That is the beauty of looking at the mountain of track data.

Certainly you can find a PSMC 426 car that ran 126 mph and a 440-6 car that ran a 106 mph, or a 440-6 car that ran a 118, and a 426 that ran a 111.

But when you toss out the outliers, and look at 20 years of data, the PSMC hemi cars ran 4 to 6 mph faster than the 440-6 cars. That is probably indicictive of a 40 to 70 hp difference. In the early years, they were all slower. In the later years, they were all faster, but stayed about the same relative to each other. In a more true to factory stock, the relative difference was probably 3-5 mph and 30 to 50 hp.

I personally trust this high level observation as a reflection of what is generally true when comparing relative stockish 426 to 440-6 motors even though none of these motors racing in PSMC are stock. It is certainly better than a singlar dyno test compatison using motor parts laying around the shop.

PSMCDR list of fastest cars.

psmcdr.com/all-time-fastest-lists

Years ago, I met a guy that had moved here from Texas, he was an old Mopar guy. He told me that where he lived in Texas, they raced the 1/4, then continued for 1 mile. His car at the time was a 66 Hemi Sattelite, 4 speed. What he told me about racing 6 pack cars mimics the article posted by Somecarguy. He said in every gear when the Hemi started breathing it would pull out more on the Six Pack cars.

I have no personal experience with a Hemi, always above my pay grade.