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Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: bigtimeauto] #987401
05/08/11 10:34 AM
05/08/11 10:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar Offline
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tubtar  Offline
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Quote:



I think what you guys are missing is this stuff is for specific application race engines not for mainstream engines.
A regular billet core will work fine until you can't get the lobes in the block.




Or need lobes re-located , which ( sorry for the redundancy ) is also pretty specific , not to mention light years ahead of the average Joe.
Hey Man.......I'm guilty of it too.
I'm going with a front drive distributor on a street & strip R-3 / W-9 combo for show and tell purposes.
But the villagers will see that...........I can tell them I have any cam I want to at that point and they'll have no choice but to believe. ( MoPar UGL billet sent to Bullet and pretty tame as cams go. )
I could have gone with a simple chain and good distributor for significantly less $$.
And I am aware of the potential shortcomings of this set up for street use , up to and including road crud finding it's way into the belts and street manners with locked out timing.
But there are two other "65 Dart G.T.'s roaming around here............they're getting to be like Camaro's or Nova's.
I had to do something to set myself apart.
Even on a pure race car , at the performance level I am looking at , I am over doing some things.
And I think that is fairly common for a lot of us.
Others listen to the voice of reason and allow common sense and fiscal responsibility to enter into the equation.

Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: tubtar] #987402
05/09/11 11:50 AM
05/09/11 11:50 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline
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Biginchmopar  Offline
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Carson City, Nevada
The 54mm Hemi cam cores are availble @ Erson. Call Erson and ask for Steve, he can grind anything you need. The 54mm cores are still being used by top fuel teams so I think they will hold up just fine in one of our deals.

Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Keith Black®] #987403
05/09/11 12:56 PM
05/09/11 12:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
HEMIFRED Offline
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SOUTH JERSEY
Quote:

thanks everyone. I'll stick with the std bearings but go to 54mm core , now sounds like best idea.
Appreciate the help.




unless you are going to use killer spring pressures like 1000lb open it will do absoulutley nothing for you. except cost much more


home of the
Sox and Martin Hemi Duster


Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: HEMIFRED] #987404
05/09/11 05:16 PM
05/09/11 05:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline OP
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Keith Black®  Offline OP
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QLD Australia
thanks, I'll stick with the stock dimensions then,
still, definitely worth knowing what was pointed out.
cam is unlikely to have that sort of spring pressure:
Quote:

250/262 @ .050, .700 lift at valve, 114 LSA, solid roller




appreciate the info from everyone.


--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Keith Black®] #987405
05/09/11 07:15 PM
05/09/11 07:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 903
Saskatchewan, Canada
cudabin Offline
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Saskatchewan, Canada
Shop around before you give up on the 54mm idea...

It is a no charge upgrade from Keith Black Racing, and several companies stock the cores. Mine was from LSM

Yes it was a bit more than a shelf stock cam, but if you want the most performance available you should go custom grind anyways.

Comp has the cores as well.

Good luck,

Arnie


67 Cuda 8.48@ 158.7 mph 1.18 60' 2,600 DA(so far...) 70 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 4-speed. 13.2 @ 104 Stock exhaust/Street tires.
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: cudabin] #987406
05/09/11 07:30 PM
05/09/11 07:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
HEMIFRED Offline
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Quote:

Shop around before you give up on the 54mm idea...

It is a no charge upgrade from Keith Black Racing, and several companies stock the cores. Mine was from LSM

Yes it was a bit more than a shelf stock cam, but if you want the most performance available you should go custom grind anyways.

Comp has the cores as well.

Good luck,

Arnie





why would anyone bother using these cam specs? it's an absolute waste of money that could be put to better use if spent elsewhere

Quote:

250/262 @ .050, .700 lift at valve, 114 LSA, solid roller





home of the
Sox and Martin Hemi Duster


Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: HEMIFRED] #987407
05/09/11 07:46 PM
05/09/11 07:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline
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Biginchmopar  Offline
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Carson City, Nevada
Hemified,

I'll tell you why. What if he wants to step up in the future to a serious cam or resell the block at a later date to someone else. If your going to spend the money for the block why not get the features that will let you go Extreme at a later date if needed.

Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Biginchmopar] #987408
05/09/11 08:16 PM
05/09/11 08:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline OP
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Keith Black®  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Fred
Quote:

why would anyone bother using these cam specs?




Do you mean:
1. why would I bother using Large journal cam IF using these cam specs?, or,
2. Why would I bother using these cam spec's?

if you mean 2. there's a good reason.


--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Keith Black®] #987409
05/09/11 09:23 PM
05/09/11 09:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 614
Michigan
G
Get-X Offline
mopar
Get-X  Offline
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G

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Posts: 614
Michigan
Here's a couple of crappy phone pictures of my cam for my Hemi99 engine.





This is where roller cam bearings came from, the need to use larger cores to get the larger lobes through the block, to strenghten them from flexing with huge spring open loads and to help handle the crazy loading on the cam bearings from 1500# open spring loads. This is a 60mm core, note the height of the lobe versus the o.d. of the cam journal.

Also, in an effort to quiet down the valvetrain and to try and control cam flex they added cam bearings, and the engine I have actually has nine cam bearings, not five. Even with a 60mm core and a lobe as big as as the o.d. of the journal, it still has 1.85 ratio rockers to get to the lift number they wanted (1.100"). As others have said, this is something you don't need unless you plan on really stepping up your program in the future, then it makes more sense. Hope that helps.


'65 Belvedere
'68 GTX
'57 Dodge pickup
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Get-X] #987410
05/09/11 10:43 PM
05/09/11 10:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline OP
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Keith Black®  Offline OP
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QLD Australia
Wow
awesome.
My cam is/will be very tame by comparison.

what sort of seat/open spring pressure for .700 lift solid roller with roller rockers & heavy valvetrain components ~<7,000rpm....?


--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Keith Black®] #987411
05/09/11 10:49 PM
05/09/11 10:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Quote:

Wow
awesome.
My cam is/will be very tame by comparison.

what sort of seat/open spring pressure for .700 lift solid roller with roller rockers & heavy valvetrain components ~<7,000rpm....?




At 7000 revs you wont need alot... but it also will
depend on the valve train weight... but I have .710
lift with 320 on seat and 900 open... you could get
away with 300 seat and 650 open...... JMO

Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #987412
05/09/11 10:53 PM
05/09/11 10:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline OP
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Keith Black®  Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Wow
awesome.
My cam is/will be very tame by comparison.

what sort of seat/open spring pressure for .700 lift solid roller with roller rockers & heavy valvetrain components ~<7,000rpm....?




At 7000 revs you wont need alot... but it also will
depend on the valve train weight... but I have .710
lift with 320 on seat and 900 open... you could get
away with 300 seat and 650 open...... JMO





Ideally I want as little flex as possible (as I assume everyone does), so tapered thick wall pushrods, Jesel or T&D rocker system (which I have another question about Jesels are they aluminium will they last.?)


--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Keith Black®] #987413
05/09/11 11:12 PM
05/09/11 11:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Ideally I want as little flex as possible (as I assume everyone does), so tapered thick wall pushrods, Jesel or T&D rocker system (which I have another question about Jesels are they aluminium will they last.?)





All I run is T&D... they both are the best out there
and I've been running mine for 7 years... all the point
that MIGHT wear are steel or a bearing
Also I didnt catch weather you are running a RB or hemi
if a hemi I would up the open pressure some more

Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Biginchmopar] #987414
05/09/11 11:23 PM
05/09/11 11:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,502
SOUTH JERSEY
HEMIFRED Offline
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Quote:

Hemified,

I'll tell you why. What if he wants to step up in the future to a serious cam or resell the block at a later date to someone else. If your going to spend the money for the block why not get the features that will let you go Extreme at a later date if needed.




stepping up has not been the question here nor even mentioned.
the resale market with large journels then limits the market to mainly racers and you never get the investment returned. Stock size cam leaves the buyer a choice to enlarge or not and that resale market is much larger


home of the
Sox and Martin Hemi Duster


Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: HEMIFRED] #987415
05/09/11 11:38 PM
05/09/11 11:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Keith Black® Offline OP
pro stock
Keith Black®  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,212
QLD Australia
Quote:


stepping up has not been the question here nor even mentioned.




Mike, hemifred
at the highest key criteria around my build are:
1. strength
2. durability/longevity
3. power

it's a 526 Hemi F2 ProCharger.
In terms of the spec required to deliver 3.Power I believe I have it close in the combination of cam/headflow/compression/ F2 supercharger @15psi/intercooler EFI etc etc. 1,500-1,600hp.

I'm designing it around the best of both worlds (if that's even possible).so it's down to reliability...to 1.&2... which are probably connected.
Intended use will clearly play a major part, and the car will be mostly street driven with occasional bursts but also likely are LONG long distance runs too.
I do not want to be taking the engine out every few weeks/months to check everything, so I assume the best choice of parts & combination from a mechanical perspective is paramount. this is why I am looking at all the options for each component set, such as roller cam bearings/large journal,.Billet crank etc.



--------------------------------
Darren Beale
Keith Black Racing Engines®
Re: Roller bearing vs std bearing cam RB/hemi? [Re: Keith Black®] #987416
05/10/11 09:04 PM
05/10/11 09:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 103
NEW JERSEY
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Posts: 103
NEW JERSEY
Always run the biggest cam core you can fit and afford.Babbitt cam bearings make more power than roller bearings.the bigger cam core will not flex or twist as much as smaller ,.the bigger core will like a bigger wheel diameter,Stronger .The bigger core will alowe more lift to be ground into the cam instead of higher rocker ratio ,more stable at high rpm.As you make the core bigger the actual valve open area will increase,so you may need to shorten duration.There are engines running with no cam bearings,just high tech coatings on cam journals and cam with 78-83 MM dia.Bill C.


Ceralli Racing Engines & Checkered Flag Machine Racing engines , CNC porting & induction development http://www.checkeredflagmachine.net/
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