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Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: 69Cuda340S] #920513
02/03/11 11:48 PM
02/03/11 11:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!
3
340RICK Offline
master
340RICK  Offline
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3

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,998
GO BUCKS !!!!!!!


Good read as always

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: 340RICK] #920514
02/04/11 12:53 AM
02/04/11 12:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 242
Upland, California
Spode Offline
enthusiast
Spode  Offline
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Posts: 242
Upland, California
Thanks Ryan

Your threads are the most interesting on this site. Not that others are boring it just that I love the technical and empirical aspect of building engines. In another life I would love to do the work you do.
Thanks

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: Quicksilver440] #920515
02/04/11 01:11 AM
02/04/11 01:11 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,443
Maryland
D
Dads426 Offline
pro stock
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pro stock
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Posts: 1,443
Maryland
Quote:

Man...those headers don't look "that" bad...




Frankenheaders....

Very interesting thread.



2012 422 Allstars NSS Champion
2013 422 Allstars NSS Champion
2014 422 Allstars NSS Champion
Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: fishy340] #920516
02/04/11 01:25 AM
02/04/11 01:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline OP
moparts member
RyanJ  Offline OP
moparts member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
Quote:

dying to see the big dog in a few weeks




The "big dog" is going to be my buddies W8 @ 17:1. Joe's will make power, but it's just an 11:1 pump gas Nitrous motor, so it won't be anything outrageous, probably 790-800. Will make alot of TQ... Should make at least 675-680 TQ. The W8 will probably be over 720 TQ.

Joe said the W5 made 440 on chassis dyno, so that's about 530-540 Crank, which seems about right. The heads were basically stock with real mild exhaust port work & a valve job.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: Leigh] #920517
02/04/11 01:33 AM
02/04/11 01:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline OP
moparts member
RyanJ  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
Quote:

Did the freshened engine show reversion, and did it disappear with the replacement headers?




? That's the whole point of the Graph on the W7 motor... The header reversion is what is killing the power on the pulls marked Custom header VS the traditional header. It's not a back pressure issue IMO, although I wish I had a way to measure BP in the collectors on that one, it's more of a pressure pulse issue. Basically @ certain RPM's the headers start to reverse flow. Quickest way to kill HP is to dilute the intake charge with exhaust gases. The back side of intake valves looked like exhaust valves... The reversion was all the way up into the manifold runners.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: RyanJ] #920518
02/04/11 01:48 AM
02/04/11 01:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686
W. Kentucky
justinp61 Offline
I Live Here
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I Live Here

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,686
W. Kentucky
Ryan, the 364" W-5, was that a Quick Fuel carb?

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: justinp61] #920519
02/04/11 02:38 AM
02/04/11 02:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,632
Lubbock,TX
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DavidDean Offline
top fuel
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,632
Lubbock,TX
Ryan, thanks for the pics and post always very imformative.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: RyanJ] #920520
02/04/11 03:23 AM
02/04/11 03:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,496
Sask, Can.
7
72demon416 Offline
pro stock
72demon416  Offline
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7

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,496
Sask, Can.
Pfft, only 4 dyno sessions in one post? Geez- when are you going to post something of interest on here

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: 72demon416] #920521
02/04/11 10:46 AM
02/04/11 10:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,091
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Offline
master
HardcoreB  Offline
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Posts: 4,091
Shelby Twp. Mi
Great post and info Ryan. Other than the execution I don't see anything wrong with those headers, they actually look like they're designed pretty good. I build anti-reversion into my headers at the flange/tube. But, I wonder if that is adequate? I would like to look up the peice Larry Mieux posted on speed talk. Where shall I look? This must be Hamacher's (spelling?) motor for the Valiant?

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: RyanJ] #920522
02/04/11 01:00 PM
02/04/11 01:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 572
Shelbyville, TN USA
4
40ford Offline
mopar addict
40ford  Offline
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4

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 572
Shelbyville, TN USA
Ryan, every board member should thank you for devulging this type of information. Very few engine builders would ever do this---most want to keep their work "Black Magic".

I just want to make a comment about headers and W7/W8 heads. We ran them for years on dirt engines. And we built most of the headers too. Never use anything smaller than 1 7/8". We also found those heads didn't like 2" either. We found our engines(from 358" to 410") perferred 1 7/8" to 2" STEP headers. But the 1 7/8" section out of the heads shouldn't be too long---around 8-10" worked best. Schoenfield produced the best "store bought" header for the W7 and W8 heads.

We also built Tri Y headers---and they work! But, their design is very critical and only use the very best "Merge" collectors. Our best Try Y header used 1 7/8" primary, 2" secondary merging into a 2 1/8" with both merging merging into a 3.5" collector. A lot of trouble to build but does help a small engine.

All of this is a little ancient history since our last W8 engine was about seven years ago. We use only P7 stuff now and we only race in Nostalgia events.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: 40ford] #920523
02/04/11 03:24 PM
02/04/11 03:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
S
sshemi Offline
top fuel
sshemi  Offline
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S

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,128
sweden
this is some really interesting info.
I just want to say youre the man Ryan.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: sshemi] #920524
02/04/11 07:13 PM
02/04/11 07:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
fishy340 Offline
master
fishy340  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
im not lookin for the golden knee pad award,but ryans threads are killa...also knowing my 59deg stuff made the power it did compared to w7 makes me just know i went to the right source and will continue too

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: fishy340] #920525
02/04/11 09:03 PM
02/04/11 09:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,149
Melbourne , Australia
LA360 Offline
master
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Melbourne , Australia
I have seen similar results with custom headers myself. One example a 331 cube Ford Windsor that ran faster with the exhaust on, and a 340 Chrysler that was just down on power.
After trying jet and timing changes, changing carbs, even lash while we were at it on the Ford engine we threw on a set of off the shelf headers with the same primary size and diameter collector. Picked up around 30hp. Bolted the custom headers back on and added some length to the very short collectors and picked up most of the gain made with the shelf headers.

The 340's headers just plain had the wrong sized collector which we were able to make custom collector extensions for to get a reasonable number out of it.

Those custom headers shown and Ryan's dyno headers have a look at how different they are, especially note how the tubing exits off the head.


Alan Jones
Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: LA360] #920526
02/04/11 09:27 PM
02/04/11 09:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline OP
moparts member
RyanJ  Offline OP
moparts member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
Quote:


Those custom headers shown and Ryan's dyno headers have a look at how different they are, especially note how the tubing exits off the head.




Yes they are drastically different exit out of head, & obviously the header with the most generous straight path is best, but almost all underchassis headers make substantial turn right out of head (like a TTI etc) But they do not cause a pulse reversion issue like this set. Yes they kill some overall power, but they don't kill 1200 RPM of useable powerband & cause a reversion issue like this.... There is major difference between a header than just loses 30 HP overall, & one that causes the engine to basically reverse flow above a certain RPM.

Here are a pair of dyno Sheets off of a motor I did a while ago with these same Dyno headers & then pulled them off & put a set of TTI 1 7/8 W2 headers on.....This is pretty "normal" loss due to tight exit angle, little bit too small of collector etc.

Look @ the power #'s, really did'nt change the powerband, just changed how much was made. The W7 header was basically just trying to shut the motor off...

Here is Pull of 436" Motor with The Schoenfeld Dyno headers:

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: RyanJ] #920527
02/04/11 09:30 PM
02/04/11 09:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ Offline OP
moparts member
RyanJ  Offline OP
moparts member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
& here is same motor with the TTI W2 header on, this is how was ran in the car, went 9.87 @ 137 @ 3260 LBS. This is probably about same HP loss as AWBDART is seeing with his 1 7/8 TTI's on his INDY head 440. 25-30 HP. & then bolt on full exhaust out the back of car... dunno how much more that would kill... probably another 10-15.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: RyanJ] #920528
02/04/11 11:14 PM
02/04/11 11:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
fishy340 Offline
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Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: fishy340] #920529
02/05/11 02:23 AM
02/05/11 02:23 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,074
oregon
G
greendart408 Offline
super stock
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,074
oregon
Been there done that with the header comparison . Went from 1 7/8s tti's to 1 7/8s hedmans and gained a consistent tenth and 1.5 mph. Its true...

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: greendart408] #920530
02/06/11 05:57 PM
02/06/11 05:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 8,043
Mt Morris Michigan
mopar dave Offline
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Posts: 8,043
Mt Morris Michigan
ok, so what off the shelf w2 street car style header makes the best power? i'v been using the 1 7/8 TTI,but been thinking about getting something different. i'v had two pairs of TTI's and when looking into the collector notice on both pair the tubes to be different lengths where they come together in the collector. does'nt look right. every pair of hookers i'v looked in are all even.

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: mopar dave] #920531
02/06/11 06:04 PM
02/06/11 06:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
fishy340 Offline
master
fishy340  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
Quote:

ok, so what off the shelf w2 street car style header makes the best power? i'v been using the 1 7/8 TTI,but been thinking about getting something different. i'v had two pairs of TTI's and when looking into the collector notice on both pair the tubes to be different lengths where they come together in the collector. does'nt look right. every pair of hookers i'v looked in are all even.


theres a set for sale by outlaw,in the for sale section of moparts there on mike's w2 motor thats for sale also...me i want the w8 motor

Re: Dyno... 4 motors, 3 days. [Re: RyanJ] #920532
02/06/11 07:39 PM
02/06/11 07:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,991
Anoka County, MN
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Leigh Offline
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Leigh  Offline
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Posts: 5,991
Anoka County, MN
Finally looked at this. So, you saw visible reversion evidence in the intake of the freshend engine? I ask this, as usually, an A, B, A, comparison, is the benchmark of diagnostics. Not trying to be an A S S. I have an invested interest, as my intake manifold and exhaust side shows heavy reversion.
Thanks,
Leigh

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