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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Devilbrad]
#890216
12/28/10 03:06 PM
12/28/10 03:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,038
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
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Tulsa OK
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Good topic.
I think for starters you will need a remote pump from mezziere or whoever. You will then likely need to drill and tap your intake to accept coolant at the rear of the cylinder head. I believe you could use the meziere WP adaptor on the timing cover and weld some AN fittings to it for your return. Your remote pump can then feed a manfold that pumps the coolant into each corner of the manifold.
That seems a little to simple I must be leaving something out. If its that simple I will consider this for my 416 build.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Baxter61]
#890217
12/28/10 03:09 PM
12/28/10 03:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
isnt reverse cooling heating? 
LOL, I meant reverse flow. Bad340, wouldn't you want the return lower, or at least as low as say a block fill?
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: jg309]
#890222
12/28/10 08:29 PM
12/28/10 08:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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Done it and it worked great.
It's rocket science. No you do not need a remote pump. When I did it, I didn't want anyone to know what I was doing. Seemed I was a DA and didn't know anything. But, everytime I did something new some jerk was over taking pictures when I had the hood off or the engine apart. Next thing you know after going back to the same track a year later someone was running the same deal.
If you want to do it just look at a sprint car setup. The way they put water in the block is an excellent place to take it out. Their blocks have screw in core plugs. You will need something different with cast iron blocks. You also do not have to run lines to the rear of the heads. If you do that you need to change some other things to benefit from it. Look at your head gasket really close and it will tell you what to do.
Signed Smart Ellic
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Jeepmon]
#890224
12/28/10 10:03 PM
12/28/10 10:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
This maybe a dumb question.. but why not just run a water pump backwards with reverse flow blades on it?
I don't think anyone makes something like that, the blade that is. Besides you wouldn't need to reverse the pumps rotation, just make the blade pull instead of push. Did you see Rob's thread on NC1320? That's what made me start this one.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: cbarracuda]
#890226
12/29/10 01:10 AM
12/29/10 01:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,813
Blue Ridge, VA
Plumb Wired
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Blue Ridge, VA
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Here is a side view of the plumbing from the side of the block to the timing cover.
Mike Gray
RIP Monte Smith
aka: OutlawFish
'98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Jeepmon]
#890228
12/29/10 07:40 AM
12/29/10 07:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
Oyvind Mopar
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mopar
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Norway (old world)
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Quote:
This maybe a dumb question.. but why not just run a water pump backwards with reverse flow blades on it?
Unfortunately not, because all these pumps work on the sentrifugal force principle pulling water in the center and trowing out on the periphery. The blade/angles just adapt the speed / pressure.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Oyvind Mopar]
#890229
12/29/10 08:58 AM
12/29/10 08:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,151
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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I was going to make the core plugs with AN fittings to sell, but with the way the Australian dollar is, it wouldn't be worthwhile to sell them in the US and the market over here wouldn't warrant doing them.
The principal is very simple, pump cool water into the heads, pull the hot water into the radiator. This can be achieved with a conventional pump and or/a remote pump. I will check out a head gasket, as per Leon's suggestion though.
Alan Jones
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: LA360]
#890230
12/29/10 12:20 PM
12/29/10 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,894
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
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I always toyed with the idea of a "2 circuit" cooling system. One for the heads and one for the block. Just isolate the head gasket cooling passages and run a remote pump for the heads that you could augment with a cool can at the track. To my mind if you can keep the heads cool independent of the block by using different flow rates and 2 smaller side by side radiators. Not reverse cooling but possibly more effective by allowing you to 'tweak' the respective temps. filled blocks especially tend to stay hot once they get hot and this taxes the system and also tends to keep the oil hotter than 'ideal'. Aluminum heads can wick away more heat and if the head gasket had some thermal isolation from the block deck surfaces you might not need a very large system if it was efficiently designed. If you wanted to get semi-sophisticated you could even make the systems closed-loop/self regulating using temp feedback (thermocouples or RTD) and even variable speed pumps and flow control valves. Lots of decommisioned industrial process control equipment can be found dirt cheap if you know where to look. I'm an industrial engineer...can you tell? 
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Plumb Wired]
#890232
12/29/10 07:14 PM
12/29/10 07:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
Here is a side view of the plumbing from the side of the block to the timing cover.
Mike Gray
Thanks Mike! Your setup isn't reverse flow cooling though, right? Just a far superior way than stock. Love that engine! 
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: LA360]
#890234
12/29/10 09:32 PM
12/29/10 09:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here is a side view of the plumbing from the side of the block to the timing cover.
Mike Gray
Thanks Mike! Your setup isn't reverse flow cooling though, right? Just a far superior way than stock. Love that engine!
What exactly do you consider "reverse cooling"
Just wanting to clarify as perhaps what I consider to be reverse cooling, may not be so.
Standard cooling starts from the block, then through the heads. Reverse cooling goes through heads first, then block.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Plumb Wired]
#890235
12/29/10 09:42 PM
12/29/10 09:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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In Mike Grays pic just using it as an example sense the pic is posted.
Not reverse cooling but a possible fix to a common issue on the W7-9 water flow determined by the head gasket design.
Conventional heads flow water from front to rear of block. Then the water comes through a hole in the upper rear region of the head gasket. Then through the head and back to the thermostat housing.
On W7-9 18 head bolt gasket designs the hole in the gasket is not there. The holes are under the exaust ports. Four holes total that carry most of the water to the head. When making more power with boost or nitrous you run into issues with the water getting too hot by the time it is at the rear of the engine. Trying to fix the problem hoses are run to the rear of the heads. So then you run water to the center of the block through the core plug hole with an adapter that several people sell. Mine come from Webber. Now instead of cool water entering only through the front of the block you also have water coming into the center, side of the block. Small blocks with power seem to have issues with the rear cylinders. It is water temperature related.
I don't know if Mike did this but you can install a core plug behind the water pump and not put any water in the front of the block. And people looking have no idea. I cooled this way shortly but realized some other issues. Then I changed some other things and reverse cooled. Two reasons didn't want to buy another pump and did not want copy cats to know what I was doing.
Sprint car arrangements are the bomb just make them reverse cooling.
Leon
Last edited by Leon441; 12/31/10 11:32 PM.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Leon441]
#890236
12/29/10 10:09 PM
12/29/10 10:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,151
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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I always made the assumption that people running set-ups like Mike's were blocking the front of the block, but obviously not always the case.
Has anyone used an expansion tank at the highest point of a reverse system with success? What about different positions of cool pressurized water entering the cylinder heads, like from the exhaust port side for example?
Last edited by LA360; 12/29/10 10:10 PM.
Alan Jones
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: LA360]
#890238
12/29/10 11:13 PM
12/29/10 11:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
I always made the assumption that people running set-ups like Mike's were blocking the front of the block, but obviously not always the case.
Has anyone used an expansion tank at the highest point of a reverse system with success? What about different positions of cool pressurized water entering the cylinder heads, like from the exhaust port side for example?
This is what made me start this thread. Local friend with a turbo SBC does it this way. Feeds exhaust side of the heads first and uses an expansion tank. Here are some pics.
Water pump holes blocked off.
Inline pump feeding two -12's to center of heads.
Feed to one head.
The mess at the radiator, I prefer the distribution block on Mike Gray's engine.
A -8 on each corner of intake with two -3 air bleeds off the back sides of the intake, they lead to expansion tank.
Expansion tank, bottom goes to radiator, top to overflow bottle. The two -3's go to expansion tank.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: RyanJ]
#890241
12/29/10 11:33 PM
12/29/10 11:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
Only pic I could quickly find of the Zeus 2002 W8's with the deck water ports. I've seen bunch of them, but never thought about taking pic of them...
Do you think it's possible to machine a regular pair of W8 or 9's for those fittings? I'm so glad I started this thread, getting to see cool small block stuff people never show!
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Devilbrad]
#890242
12/30/10 12:25 AM
12/30/10 12:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Only pic I could quickly find of the Zeus 2002 W8's with the deck water ports. I've seen bunch of them, but never thought about taking pic of them...
Do you think it's possible to machine a regular pair of W8 or 9's for those fittings? I'm so glad I started this thread, getting to see cool small block stuff people never show!
It's all water jacket in there, so you can drill holes anywhere you want to put water....
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: 340Cuda]
#890244
12/30/10 07:16 PM
12/30/10 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 549
Bristol, Va
fasteddie
mopar
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mopar
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Bristol, Va
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Even if you are reverse cooling the engine the water still goes through the radiator the same way, in at the top and out at the bottom. Correct?
The main reason I see for reverse cooling is to better control detonation, maybe to run somewhat higher compression or to run lower octane fuel, like pump gas instead of more expensive race gas.
I have drawn out some plans on paper to do this on regular cast iron heads but the part about getting the hot water out of the engine would require the engine to be out of the car to drill and tap the block. I have no plans right now to pull the engine but when I do I will attemp to put this plan into action.
Another question. If cool water goes into the engine at the front and back intake manifold surface of the heads and out on the sides of the block, do the head gaskets need to be modified?
2003 Bristol Dragway Sportsman Champion
2016 Bristol Dragway Power Hour Champion
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Plumb Wired]
#890246
12/31/10 01:09 PM
12/31/10 01:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,489
Pacifica, CA
Devilbrad
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here is a side view of the plumbing from the side of the block to the timing cover.
Mike Gray
Thanks Mike! Your setup isn't reverse flow cooling though, right? Just a far superior way than stock. Love that engine!
Correct, not reverse cooling I was only showing a side view of the same engine you showed the earlier pic of from the front. My question is why? I have run just about every SB block/head combo known and have never had a cooling or detonation problem plumbing them as shown. 
Mike Gray
The SBC I showed above was done the way it was to keep the exhaust valves cool. Of course it's a turbo setup running on the edge. I like your setup and if I ever start building my dream engine, that's the way I will go.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: emarine01]
#890248
12/31/10 11:40 PM
12/31/10 11:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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Lynchburg, VA
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One lesson I learned when doing the reverse flow deal. Electric stock location water pumps always seemed to have a slight priming issue. When normal flow is done you can simply remove a screw in the front of the pump and bleed the air pocket out. When you reverse flow and use the stock placement pump it will continue to cavitate. Simple fix plumb a line into the top of pump body and up to the upper portion of the radiator tank. This will constantly provide a path to bleed air out. I still use this trick even on standard flow cooling system. Never have to worry about cavitation.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: Leon441]
#890249
01/01/11 12:39 AM
01/01/11 12:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
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Seems like you guys are over complicateing it, no head mods nessacary. Just pull the fins off your old water pump, run hose from bottom of radiator to in line electric pump, next hose from in line pump to water old water pump (that is now just an idler), leave old hose to top of radiator to t-stat housing (no t-stat needed). Set up your inline pump to pump water into radiator from the old water pump housing and you have reverse cooling, cool water pumped from radiator into intake and then it will go into the heads then down into the block then out the old water pump housing. The only issue I can see if you did it this stealth way is if you had air in the top of the radiator it may not pump up the water leval in the radiator enough to flow into t-stat housing, to combat that you could switch the hoses so water comes out of hollow w-pump and into top of radiator, then cooled water from bottom of radiator goes into t-stat housing. It would not be stealthy looking but would be a good reverse cooling system for cheap. Either way you run it you can control the temp with an electric cooling fan temp switch or just run it full cool all the time to reduce head temps even more. If you want to get real fancy you could run a low current to the pump during warm up to keep the heads from ever getting hot then when you reach the desired temp give it full voltage to maintain temp. If you are not after stealth looks you can pull the idler from the old pump housing so it is just a water manifold and weld up the hole where the shaft used to go through.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Reverse cooling small blocks.
[Re: HotRodDave]
#890250
01/01/11 12:15 PM
01/01/11 12:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
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Lynchburg, VA
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You would want to reverse the flow in the engine not the radiator.
Work on some old farm equipment that didn't have water pumps and you will see why. Heat rises. This is why bringing water into the heads and pulling out of the block is sometimes a little difficult. The water naturally due to heat wants to go up. The pump can overcome this but, you can still have issues.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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