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I do agree Barry offers a great service to the Mopar community -if he trusts you.

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I do agree Barry offers a great service to the Mopar community -if he trusts you.

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*edited for accuracy

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Kinda reminds me of this episode...Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svSGKJFSl-8&feature=related



The paperwork Nazi..."No paperwork for YOU!"

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i am not siding with barry on his views necessarily,but,i don't care who you are,what reason you use, rebodying is illegal. period.
anybody out there,i don't care what state you live in,when you remove the VIN tag from one vehicle and put it on another, it is against the law. there is no "grey" area in the law. it doesn't matter if you have a rust bucket 1 of 1 hemi cuda sitting there,and have a rustfree slant 6 barracuda,and swap the VIN,tags,numbers to that car to "save an important,rare car",you have committed fraud. there is no justification. there is no grey area. it is illegal. think you have done no wrong? make sure when you get that rebodied car done,and got to license it,make sure and tell the DMV,that you swapped the VIN tags on the car. we will read your next post on here from jail......

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In that case,yes it is illegal but the gray area is when you are restoring a very rusty car and replacing a lot of metal on it and some still will call it a re-body even though the main structure is still there.I have also seen people get jumped on for merely innocently mentioning the word re-body.

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There is nothing innocent about it. Rebody a car and then go to the "authorities" and see how it goes. A guy I know flushed his life down the drain rebodying tractors and backhoes. I think he is pulling 5 years after he used what was left of a multimillion dollar fortune to pay the lawyers.

That is that "gray area" though, right?

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i am not siding with barry on his views necessarily,but,i don't care who you are,what reason you use, rebodying is illegal. period.
anybody out there,i don't care what state you live in,when you remove the VIN tag from one vehicle and put it on another, it is against the law. there is no "grey" area in the law. it doesn't matter if you have a rust bucket 1 of 1 hemi cuda sitting there,and have a rustfree slant 6 barracuda,and swap the VIN,tags,numbers to that car to "save an important,rare car",you have committed fraud. there is no justification. there is no grey area. it is illegal. think you have done no wrong? make sure when you get that rebodied car done,and got to license it,make sure and tell the DMV,that you swapped the VIN tags on the car. we will read your next post on here from jail......

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In that case,yes it is illegal but the gray area is when you are restoring a very rusty car and replacing a lot of metal on it and some still will call it a re-body even though the main structure is still there.I have also seen people get jumped on for merely innocently mentioning the word re-body.

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There is nothing innocent about it. Rebody a car and then go to the "authorities" and see how it goes. A guy I know flushed his life down the drain rebodying tractors and backhoes. I think he is pulling 5 years after he used what was left of a multimillion dollar fortune to pay the lawyers.

That is that "gray area" though, right?

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Boy,we sure got away from the OP's original question.

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Please someone give me a legitimate reason why you would REPRODUCE a fender tag other than greed/profit....

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I will, and I bet a bunch of other honest guys would agree. Your car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag. Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto. I've never flipped anything in my life. Could have tripled my money on both my A12 car and 69 Judge in '06. Too attached; I'll probably die with them in my name, so its not about greed or profit for me. Its not about the money to a whole lot of motorhead enthusiasts.

I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.

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I relate Barry to a wanna be cop,the kind that pulls you over b/c your car looks fast and you may break the speeed limit at some point.I am all for busting those actually comitting fraud by swapping/making vin tags but he way oversteps the bounds of his self appointed authority by attacking and threatening anyone who mentions or asks about fender tags,rebodying or restoring basketcases etc.The law is very gray on these matters and contrary to what he beleives he does not know it all.
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I will go along with this. I do believe if the chips were down and I were thinking of buying a car and really truely wanted to get information (reliable) information about the car I was buying (due diligence) I would appreciate Barry and his knowledge.

I dont know what private emails go on in private, I do hate to see the fighting tho. It upsets me like seeing family fight when we have get togethers. I too would like to have a build sheet. I dont care if it says COPY on it, I am a talker in person and I would like a conversation piece at the car shows.

The question "Why would someone want a fake fendertag and/or buildsheet want one other than greed or profit" The question bears consideration and I can only answer for myself. Here and now I document I dont have my buildsheet for my car, therefore anyone can place an asterick by my lil name or car. Still I love things like repro items legtimately available in the marketplace such has factory ads, stickers, articles etc. It tells a story about our cars when others show interest at shows or club get togethers etc. I dont think of them as profit centers but I CAN SEE HOW OTHERS WOULD in the hobby. So indeed both sides have legitimate issues. There can be room for disagreement as well as room for compromise in our hobby.

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What if your original BS shows up now? Will it always be questioned as a fake- because you stated you didn't have it- and all of a sudden you do? Sorry just

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Please someone give me a legitimate reason why you would REPRODUCE a fender tag other than greed/profit....

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I will, and I bet a bunch of other honest guys would agree. You're car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag. Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto. I've never flipped anything in my life. Could have tripled my money on both my A12 car and 69 Judge in '06. Too attached; I'll probably die with them in my name, so its not about greed or profit for me. Its not about the money to a whole lot of motorhead enthusiasts.

I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.

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And Frank,it's your car,your money.Until someone else spends their money on your car,it's your decision right or wrong to do as you see fit.If you make the wrong decision,then you are the one that suffers the consequences,not the hundreds that respond with their opinions that change nothing.

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6 pages of posts and yet no responses hardly to my questions that originaly started this topic. it is more a Barry aginst Dave post now.

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.Barry has every right to help or not help whoever he chooss. He is not a highered authority and since we weren't a witness to the phone call or what transpired, it's between him and the OP. 'nuff said.

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Phone call was real quick and simple I told Him my name and he quickley cut me off and told me He didnt want to have anything to do with me as he had knew I had made a fake tag and quickly hung up on me. Nothing more nothing less.

Now back in April I posted some questions pertaning to my present car a 70 roadrunner as to the option codes for it so I could have a fender tag made for it as I had lost the tag. I did not know at the time it was an unaccepted pratice and prety much got hammered pretty hard for the post. I then realized that I cant make a tag for it and it wasnt an acceptable thing to do and I left it at that. Only other thing I mentioned in that post was I had Galen Govier make me a tag for my Challenger .

Now fast forward to this week I go to the hamtrack registry and look up my 70 roadrunners vin and the registry run by Barry says it has some dealership info on my roadrunner. I sent an e-mail to Barry asking Him about this and never recieve a response. So I call Him a few days later and got hung up on and accused of pretty much being a disohnest person without being abel even to say 2 words except for my name. In one of Barrys posts he states He made some fender tags in 2005 and made sure all His tags were legit before He made them. I had my previous cars 70 challenger fender tag made by Galen in 2002 or 2003 and He made sure all was legit also, with me sending him my original build sheet lots and lots of pics and the previous owners names and phone numbers before He would even think about it.
That being said how can Barry hold this aginst me if He did the same thing ? I guess my question is if He had made the tag for my challenger would He still have refused to talk to me? The only other thing I can think of is if He wants to hold aginist me is the thought I had of making a tag for my 70 roadrunner wich will not ever happen after a hard lesson learned and a good bashing here on moparts. So now the delership info Barry has on my car will never be known for one of the two reasons stated.

I belive Barry has my posts set to be ignore and he will probably never read any of this unless somone wants to do a quote on this topic. But just wanted to clear up a few things.
Thanks !
Dave Pealer

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Since it was asked....

One question 1 I meant to add the tag is accurate & the info is verified either by having the remains of the original tag, a photo of the tag or in the case of those lucky enough the tag was in a data base like SIAC before the tag disappeared...

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Where's the poll for re-bodied cars with real or "fake" tags?

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Mike, you fully capable of adding another poll....

FWIW there are many thing you post I agree with, But you opinions about rebodies & false documents just doesn't fly...

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A spirited post, to say the least. Here's my two cents.

Fender tags and build sheets are not legally required, legally binding, nor illegal to produce or buy/sell.... Nothing immoral about it.


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So are you OK with the remade tag I posted earlier in the thread where major things were changed? Are you OK with selling and reselling the car down the road knowing about the major changes? How would future buyers know about these changes?

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Yes, I am ok with making major changes to a car. Yes, I am ok with having a tag made to reflect those changes. PERSONALLY, I would trash the tag if I sold the car. But if someone else would leave the tag with the car, misrepresenting it to make more $, or even informing the new buyer the tag was not original, I stand by what I said in an earlier post; the responsibility to make sure you are getting what you pay for is THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE BUYER.

Why would ANYONE pay top $ for something that is easy to imitate, or that can't be verified as authentic? If you personally don't know the history of the car, put your money in gold, for pete's sake.

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6 pages of posts and yet no responses hardly to my questions that originaly started this topic. it is more a Barry aginst Dave post now.

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Hello Dave. My initial post WAS in response to your ordeal. I was trying to convey how rudely you were treated by someone who has no more authority than you or anyone else who has posted here.

I want to make something perfectly clear. Nowhere have I ever stated that criminal, deceptive or manipulative practices should be allowed in this Hobby or anywhere else!! My only point was that these guys who go around verifying and certifying your automobiles, have no more credibility than the "Customers" they charge to "validate" their cars. They are a perfect parallel comparison to the "Clown" in the Holiday Inn Express commercials.

For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) we are a branch/extension of the Automobile Manufactures Association, a Licensed vendor to reproduce Federal VIN Labels for the Automobile manufacturers, a Licensed and Certified OE label supplier for CODA Electric Cars and a preferred vendor for almost every Major Insurance Company. We also work with Federal Agencies as they relate to the Automotive Industry. We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.

Now I know that we pale in comparison to Barry and Galen when it comes to credentials but we are certainly trying to expand our boundaries. In response to people like "SomeCarGuy" who try and group us as some type of illegitimate Company......think whatever you want! I couldn't care less if you assume we have "fake cars" or what ever else a person with an IQ of room temperature thinks. They are all Fake! Especially the four door Valiant. It use to be a HEMI Dart but we made it into a Slant Six. I must admit that guy is a genius....he figured it out! I suggest that he continue to "go down to the local jail" hang out with the "scummy guys" while us honest Authorized and Certified people handle the big stuff! Of course I could do like the "other guys" and use my "Authority" to contact my friends/agencies and make sure that people like "SomeCarGuy" are up to speed in the car he is driving somewhere in Kentucky! (You're not as hidden as you think! We know who you are.)

(Sorry for using the last part of the post to go off topic Dave! Happy Holidays!!)

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Where's the poll for re-bodied cars with real or "fake" tags?

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Your car doesn't look complete without a steering wheel. Or a headliner. Or the left front fender. Or a fendertag.

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Also, like Bill's example, some are too rusted to put back on a nice resto.

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I've never flipped anything in my life. Could have tripled my money on both my A12 car and 69 Judge in '06.

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I don't argue that down the road the repros will be passed as originals and that is plainly, in my mind, dishonest, immoral, and fraudulent. But, 'legitimate reasoning' is subjective; in your mind my reasoning may not pass your scrutiny. And vice-versa.

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For those who have no idea what ECS Automotive Concepts is all about (or authorized to do) .... We are currently working with the CIC and SCRS to change some of the Laws that Govern the VIN program.

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Would that include making it ok to jack up a VIN tag and body stampings and driving a fresh body under them ?