Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Mike H]
#870596
12/04/10 04:56 PM
12/04/10 04:56 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Second thought, a little off subject, is if torsion bars were such a great thing, why don't cars today use them? Or do they?
My 98 chevy pickup uses them.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#870597
12/04/10 05:40 PM
12/04/10 05:40 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346 Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
|
Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Second thought, a little off subject, is if torsion bars were such a great thing, why don't cars today use them? Or do they?
My 98 chevy pickup uses them.
My '02 GMC HD does as well..
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Mike H]
#870598
12/04/10 05:42 PM
12/04/10 05:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346 Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
|
Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
|
Quote:
It seems like the best way to improve an old cars braking, even with stock drums, would be to install some kind of ABS system. But I have never heard of anyone doing that. Is it too expensive/complicated to design/install?
I did it to a Camaro, but it was the really long way around to get ABS and traction control in an old car
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2682662/1969-chevrolet-camaro
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Challenger 1]
#870599
12/05/10 12:03 AM
12/05/10 12:03 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168 Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
|
Quote:
Second thought, a little off subject, is if torsion bars were such a great thing, why don't cars today use them? Or do they?
'01 Durango has 'em, too.
BTW, front brakes on the Durango are discs 11.3 inches in diamter, and rears are drums (they look to be 11x2 or so). Braking is satisfactory although the discs have a tendency to warp. Later model Durangos ('03 and up), I believe, have 13" rotors, and discs in the rear. Maybe Ma Mopar learned something in 5 years from '98 to '02.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: MoparMarq]
#870600
12/05/10 12:56 AM
12/05/10 12:56 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,050 Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,050
Oregon
|
Most everyone has learned by now the value of big brakes. Any modern car that has the power of a 440+6 or a Hemi will have at least 13 inch rotors on it. Even the lower price Mustangs and Camaros come with big brakes these days.
Last edited by AndyF; 12/05/10 12:57 AM.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Mike H]
#870601
12/05/10 12:27 PM
12/05/10 12:27 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756 London, England
Gavin
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756
London, England
|
Quote:
It seems like the best way to improve an old cars braking, even with stock drums, would be to install some kind of ABS system. But I have never heard of anyone doing that. Is it too expensive/complicated to design/install?
ABS does not actually improve the available braking capability.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: Gavin]
#870602
12/05/10 06:10 PM
12/05/10 06:10 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
|
Quote:
ABS does not actually improve the available braking capability.
No but it does prevent you from locking the tires, and in theory locked tires on pavement slow down less rapidly than when ABS keeps the tires at their point of maximum traction.
Quote:
it seemed like one second i was doing 110, and the next second i was doing 60. no dive, no swerve, no sway, it just felt like instantaneous deceleration! i gained a whole new respect for brakes after that.
Yes but was that because of big brakes or was that because of it having a much better setup suspension, tires, stance, lower center of gravity, favorable mid-engine weight distribution, etc?
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#870603
12/05/10 06:34 PM
12/05/10 06:34 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756 London, England
Gavin
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756
London, England
|
Quote:
Quote:
ABS does not actually improve the available braking capability.
No but it does prevent you from locking the tires, and in theory locked tires on pavement slow down less rapidly than when ABS keeps the tires at their point of maximum traction.
Well the comment made was "the best way to improve an old cars braking"....and ABS does not improve braking. If you're saying that braking with non-locked wheels is better than locked wheels, then yes of course it is, I doubt anyone is arguing that. But it doesn't take ABS to avoid locked wheels - proper set up and threshold braking.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: jcc]
#870606
12/06/10 03:43 PM
12/06/10 03:43 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 157 hawaii
pauly v.100
member
|
member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 157
hawaii
|
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: jcc]
#870608
12/06/10 08:24 PM
12/06/10 08:24 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
|
Quote:
Quote:
ABS makes stopping faster in panic situations for people who haven't practiced panic braking and keeping the brakes right at that threshold.
I think that very important point is worth repeating, and to state the obvious is ABS "cycles" brakes between near lockup and release, and that actually increases stopping distance over the experienced driver as you mentioned.
I'll third that and add that I've read tests where in side by side comaprisons, profesional drivers can outdrive the ABS computer.
Seperate fromteh original topic, but relative to ABS, I've been in off road situations where locking up the tires and pushing a gravel berm in front of them was a much safer way to stop than having ABS modulate a vehicle into a potentially disastarous situation.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: TC@HP2]
#870609
12/06/10 10:01 PM
12/06/10 10:01 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
|
To the OP's question; how much brake you need depends on what you do with the car. For most people a properly set up factory set of drums would do although fade is an issue with REPEATED use (a one time panic stop is unlikely to be repeated until the brakes have cooled or high speed stops (over 60 mph) which also aren't that common in day to day driving. A factory disk/drum setup with decent tires is more than adequate for most any non-roadracing aplication. The huge rotor/6 piston caliper setups just aren't needed for a street driven car, but people buy them mostly cause they think they look cool.....sorta like the soccer moms in thier Rubicon Wranglers that have never been off pavement. Another thing to consider is comparing say, the brakes on my 06 Durango is kinda misleading unless you remember that the Durango outweighs my Superbee by over 2000 lbs! I still remember trying to slow down my brothers drum braked, 427 powered GTO from 150mph......that took awhile! my factory disk/drum equipped 442 was a lot nicer to slow down from those speeds. I laugh when someone suggests you need 4 wheel disks to stop properly! god help you if you jamb on the brakes of your new SRT8 right in front of my (4 wheel disk equipped) Ram dually when I have my camper on! at 12,000 lbs, I'd suggest a 68 drum braked coronet will stop faster. 2 pennies, Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: MoparforLife]
#870611
12/07/10 12:41 AM
12/07/10 12:41 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,068 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
|
Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,068
Irving, TX
|
Locking the tires is rarely desired. Most of the time it'll lead to VERY long stopping distances. Those are closely followed by insurance claims, personal injury attorneys, and a couple months of waiting for your car to get out of the body shop.
When I see the guy in the 4 wheel disc equipped Ram with the 12,000 lb camper jack knife in the middle of the road and dump the rig on it's side, I want to know that my 4 wheel disc brakes will stop me before I slam into the roof of his overturned truck and squash him like a grape.
No, I don't need 14 inch rotors on the front of my 65 Belvedere. However, it is the best performing brake package I've had on the car AND it was the most affordable at the time. There is a noticeable difference between these and the standard old Mopar disc brakes. These are MUCH nicer, even in daily use.
Let's not bring up the 4 wheel drums and single pot master cylinder this car left the factory with. They were horrible.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: feets]
#870612
12/07/10 12:44 AM
12/07/10 12:44 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346 Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
|
Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
|
Quote:
Here's a video of the SLR's carbon ceramic brakes glowing after a single stop from 120 mph.
That is pretty cool looking.
I need to make up some duct work for mine actually...the front spoiler I have already has the opening for the brake cooling ducts (the touring/road race cars used them) Just need to run some hose from there to some sort of mount behind the rotor.
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: feets]
#870613
12/07/10 01:19 AM
12/07/10 01:19 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
|
Quote:
Locking the tires is rarely desired. Most of the time it'll lead to VERY long stopping distances. Those are closely followed by insurance claims, personal injury attorneys, and a couple months of waiting for your car to get out of the body shop.
When I see the guy in the 4 wheel disc equipped Ram with the 12,000 lb camper jack knife in the middle of the road and dump the rig on it's side, I want to know that my 4 wheel disc brakes will stop me before I slam into the roof of his overturned truck and squash him like a grape.
No, I don't need 14 inch rotors on the front of my 65 Belvedere. However, it is the best performing brake package I've had on the car AND it was the most affordable at the time. There is a noticeable difference between these and the standard old Mopar disc brakes. These are MUCH nicer, even in daily use.
Let's not bring up the 4 wheel drums and single pot master cylinder this car left the factory with. They were horrible.
Don't worry Feet's; firstly, I'm not going to be jacknifed in the middle of the road, and secondly, your little car isn't going to squash me like a grape!
for the record, I have nothing against you building your car as you like with 16" brakes if that's what you choose. The point I'm making is that you don't need that to be safe driving amongst traffic.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
|
|
|
Re: So, how much braking do you really need?
[Re: DPelletier]
#870614
12/07/10 10:06 AM
12/07/10 10:06 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,278 San Jose, California
DennisH
Vacation
|
Vacation
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,278
San Jose, California
|
11" Hemi Drums all the way around on the 69 Coronet. www.praisedynobrake.com kit. Adequate braking performance. Push on them and you stop. Don't drive like a gdam fool and close on stopped traffic 5 times in a row and all is well.
|
|
|
|
|