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flat rates for paint work
#86381
07/09/08 03:07 PM
07/09/08 03:07 PM
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Anonymous
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Can someone direct me to a site that has these flat rates?
I have a couple of cars that need repaint. One has one repaint over original paint. The repaint has the DA dance and the body needs to be blocked and resprayed. This is a solid, rust free, original sheet metal car. It does not need to be painted under the hood or trunk and there is no vinyl top.
The other has one repaint (color change) over original paint. Again, This is a solid, rust free, original sheet metal car. It does not need to be painted under the hood or trunk and there is a vinyl top on this one. This car should probably be stripped.
These are 66-70 B bodies.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86382
07/09/08 03:14 PM
07/09/08 03:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,924
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
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new berlin wisconsin
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it depends on what kind of a job you want and how nice you want it done.
weather you paint under the hood and jambs is up to you and your painter.
most body shops will NOT list prices on there web sites due to so many variables involved. you should figure $5,000 and up for a nice job at a body shop that will stand behind there job after it's done.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: not_a_charger]
#86384
07/09/08 03:39 PM
07/09/08 03:39 PM
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Yes, the crash book times are what i am looking for.
I need to be knowledgable as to the time allowed for my needs.
Here is the deal. I recently had a guy give me an estimate on car #2. I have the paint as I had it mixed and had the engine and trunk compartment shot when the engine was out. I bought the original type single stage acrylic enamel as I don't want the super shiny 2 stage look, but want a super straight body. This guy gives me a price of $10k. Now remember, their is virtually no body work other than blocking.
I asked him what he charges his time out at and he says $25.00 per hour. He is a 30 year bodyman and this is a side job. So I then ask him how many hours he expects it will take and he says probably 100. When I do the math for him and explain that it computes to $2500. He then says well it could be as much as 200 hours. DUH! Still $5K.
Obviously this guy though this was the restoration shop going rate and he could get this out of his garage. With the risk to me of no assurance of how, when, or if the job ever gets done and no real way of holding his feet to the fire.
I have been down this road before and will never give a deposit but instead will buy the paint and materials. This way the guy is only out his labor until the job is completed.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86385
07/09/08 03:50 PM
07/09/08 03:50 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,924
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
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most shops and guys who will do this work flat times are absolutely worthless.
flat rate and super straight aren't in the same time zones on times to do the job.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: Mr T2U]
#86386
07/09/08 04:19 PM
07/09/08 04:19 PM
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Quote:
most shops and guys who will do this work flat times are absolutely worthless.
flat rate and super straight aren't in the same time zones on times to do the job.
I really didn't want to get into this whole thing.
I see you are a bodyman by occupation.
I owned a bodyshop for a while back in the late 70s. I am not a bodyman myself but I do know the business and the differences you refer to and will make allowances for it. The materials have changed greatly in this time but it is still a labor intensive business. I just need a baseline.
My point here is that the guy was not using flat rate, but was rather quoting me a price and then when questioned on the time estimated it didn't add up. I have seen his work and he is capable of satisfying me. He said he was going to check the flat rate charge to see what they said and get back to me, but that was the last I heard from him. No surprise there. Maybe he found another sucker to pay him 4 times what he makes at his day job before they take out his taxes, but it won't be me. I look at these side jobs like if they charge there time out at the same rate they make at there day job and don't have to pay taxes on it, they are making twice their pay scale. If they have the place and equipment to do it at home it should be a win/win for worker and customer alike.
This is not my first rodeo and there is no way I will spend anywhere near $10k for this job.
Lets just leave it at this as I don't this to turn into one of those endless threads with restoration shops arguing with people that are trying to save money with a side job. It has been beat to death here and everywhere else on the net.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: Challenger 1]
#86388
07/09/08 05:09 PM
07/09/08 05:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,119
85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
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85086
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I gave up on looking for a body man. I am going to have a friend do the quarters the rest I am blocking out. Never get an estimate at the end of the month of or remove your car at the end of the month. Someeimes they throw extras on when the rent/power bill is due. 
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: NITROUSN]
#86391
07/09/08 05:55 PM
07/09/08 05:55 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Quote:
I owned a bodyshop for a while back in the late 70s.
Then you should know the hows and whys. 
It sounds like you are here fishing for people to agree with you.
200 hours=5k. Now price out materials. You already know the paint was higher. Are you providing ALL reducers, etc.?
It sounds like you tried to pin down an estimate, even though you know it doesn't work that way, and he came back with a CYA figure. 
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: RodStRace]
#86392
07/09/08 07:21 PM
07/09/08 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I owned a bodyshop for a while back in the late 70s.
Then you should know the hows and whys.
It sounds like you are here fishing for people to agree with you.
200 hours=5k. Now price out materials. You already know the paint was higher. Are you providing ALL reducers, etc.?
It sounds like you tried to pin down an estimate, even though you know it doesn't work that way, and he came back with a CYA figure.
I do know the hows and whys.
Where do you get that I am trying to find someone to agree with me? I just asked a simple question that has not been answered.
As I said, I don't want this to be a long drawn out thread with a bunch of arguing. If you don't have the answer I am seeking don't respond. If you want to argue the subject start your own post.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86393
07/09/08 08:28 PM
07/09/08 08:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 12,481
Chino Valley
RodStRace
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I Live Here
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Okay, here is the answer to your question:
Flat rate books cover replacing or refinishing components. You indicated no items that needed repair. One car needs stripping, both need sanding, blocking, prime, sealer and paint.
I don't know of any manual that quotes prepping an entire car body. They might, I'm more aware of the mechanical manuals.
Even if you did find a manual from circa 66-70, the techniques and process has changed a lot since then, so I doubt anyone would use it as a guide to quote today. Most production shops prefer not to work on older cars, because the tolerances of the old cars were pretty loose, and people's standards have risen along with the tighter tolerances of new cars. Finding any parts needed is a lot harder than just calling the local dealer too. All of this means that looking up a 2004 Charger will not apply to your cars. Restoration shops may give you a ballpark figure, but even then, they may find hidden issues that will increase the time and cost.
So the answer is that I do not know of any reference you can find that will give you a flat rate time to perform the job you are asking about. Even if you did, these are GUIDES and the shop or body guy is the final judge. There is a disclaimer in the front of mechanical guides that tells you that frozen or rusted fasteners, collision damage, added accessories or anything else that slows the job is not included and should be allowed for when quoting the job.
I was not trying to be smart, just pointing out that the reality is that if you don't like a price, having a bunch of documents to show he quoted the job high is either going to annoy him and he won't do the job, or you annoy him and he does a half $$$ job. Being a past owner of a business, I have to ask how often someone came in and proved you were charging more than some guide quoted, and then lowered the price?
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86395
07/09/08 10:47 PM
07/09/08 10:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
Yes, the crash book times are what i am looking for.
I need to be knowledgable as to the time allowed for my needs.
Here is the deal. I recently had a guy give me an estimate on car #2. I have the paint as I had it mixed and had the engine and trunk compartment shot when the engine was out. I bought the original type single stage acrylic enamel as I don't want the super shiny 2 stage look, but want a super straight body. This guy gives me a price of $10k. Now remember, their is virtually no body work other than blocking.
I asked him what he charges his time out at and he says $25.00 per hour. He is a 30 year bodyman and this is a side job. So I then ask him how many hours he expects it will take and he says probably 100. When I do the math for him and explain that it computes to $2500. He then says well it could be as much as 200 hours. DUH! Still $5K.
Obviously this guy though this was the restoration shop going rate and he could get this out of his garage. With the risk to me of no assurance of how, when, or if the job ever gets done and no real way of holding his feet to the fire.
I have been down this road before and will never give a deposit but instead will buy the paint and materials. This way the guy is only out his labor until the job is completed.
Guy quoted you a flat rate of 10K, Right?? Then why do the math?... your looking for a flat rate. He doesn't have to justifiy any hourly rate to you. IMO
I have 210 hours of prep into my gold 71 and it had no rust either.Then about another 32 hours of masking,papering,painting,cuttting and buffing. And that's not counting stripping the old paint off.
I figuire my time to be worth at least $50.00 bucks an hour, so I have better than 10K in labor alone in my paint job. Good Luck with yours!!  
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: Challenger 1]
#86396
07/09/08 11:06 PM
07/09/08 11:06 PM
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I am aware of all that has been pointed out here.
The facts are that they used these guides when these cars were 5 year old cars for determining time to refinish and that is all I am asking for.
I don't care if it is by each individual panel or by the complete car.
Yes, things have changed from those days. Some for the better and some for the worst. Better tools to work faster, but few craftsman for repairing panels. It has become a business of panel replacement rather than repairing them.
As stated these cars need virtually no body repair other than blocking out the bodies.
I am not looking for anyone to give me an estimate here, just the crash book times for refinishing.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86397
07/09/08 11:24 PM
07/09/08 11:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,428
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
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Quote:
As stated these cars need virtually no body repair other than blocking out the bodies.
I am not looking for anyone to give me an estimate here, just the crash book times for refinishing.
Says you the so called ex-body shop owner. I can see why no one in your area will deal with you. Mister know it all with his own paint in hand.
You seem to create a very un-likeable personality in every forum you pop up in.
A typical know everything.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86398
07/09/08 11:45 PM
07/09/08 11:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,924
new berlin wisconsin
Mr T2U
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new berlin wisconsin
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Quote:
I am aware of all that has been pointed out here. .
actually you are getting only part of the point.
the times you are looking for are over 30 years old. IF YOU CAN FIND THEM. the same books will list air grabber hoods for less than $200. i will take 500 of those hoods listed for $200. as i stated before the book times you are looking for are irrelevant today.
your best bet is to visit a body shop and get general times for a current suv. if you added all of the times together you will hit around 60 to 100 hours depending on the car and what you actually include. but the times are for PRODUCTION ASSEMBLY LINE WORK. you mentioned super straight in your earlier post. super straight and production work are about the same as comparing a Yugo to a Rolls Royce and calling them the same thing.
to help you get a general figure to do a good paint job with not much blocking. i did a complete color change paint job on a 2008 Z06 corvette with 8 miles on it about 4 months ago. the customer wanted his car painted a special black metallic. GM doesn't paint black metallic on corvettes. we charged the customer 300 hours, i think i didn't break even on the job, at $52 hr to remove the outside trim. remove the bolt on panels, on a corvette all of the exterior panels are bolt on except for the roof panels. block the panels out with 500 grit. paint everything base coat. sand, buff and re assemble car. i think his material bill was around $1500. and yes you should figure removing at least the doors and the hood to get the edges painted properly on your job.
also some of the materials required to paint a car that most people forget are reducers, catalyst for the paints, booth filters, rubbing compounds, polishing compounds, buffing pads, i use 3 different kind of pads when doing a top level job, razor blades, ,misc nuts bolts screws, special masking materials, and clean up chemicals. i am sure there are other ones i am forgetting.
Last edited by Mr T2U; 07/09/08 11:57 PM.
perception is 90% of reality
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86399
07/10/08 12:51 AM
07/10/08 12:51 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,018
Missouri
MOBodyman
super stock
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Posts: 1,018
Missouri
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Quote:
The facts are that they used these guides when these cars were 5 year old cars for determining time to refinish and that is all I am asking for.
Better tools to work faster, but few craftsman for repairing panels. It has become a business of panel replacement rather than repairing them.
I am not looking for anyone to give me an estimate here, just the crash book times for refinishing.
1. Crash book times are based on using new parts on undamaged cars. It says so right in the book. No consideration given for stripping old paint, blocking wavy panels, etc.
2. I remember the '70s. I went to technical school then and have been in business for myself since '73, We were taught at that time that the way to make money was on our labor to repair panels, not to replace them. The quality of work that was acceptable then would be considered extremely shoddy today. (I'm not talking about craftsmen who can fabricate complex panels from flat sheetmetal. They don't do flat rate work and you can't buy their services for crash book prices.) Also, those cars weren't straight when they were new. I remember a new car that came into the school for us to work on. The doors were hard to open and close. It was on loan from a new car store to the school for driver's ed. The doors fit so poorly they were extremely hard to open and close. None of the side moulding lined up, neither did the body panels. It was a GM car and the front clip was a different shade from the rest of the car, (common for GM back then.)
It's a viscous circle working on old cars. The standards are constantly being raised. The better the quality of work, the more it costs. The more it costs, the higher the expectations are, etc, etc, etc.
For a lot of people, the compromise of their expectations with their budget can make for some difficult decisions.
Dallas
missourimopar.com
2012 Rallye Redline Challenger, 1st new car!
2010 Ram 1500 4wd HEMI-hauler
2014 Dodge Dart-gas saver
4 projects and a bunch of parts cars, losing interest since buying the Challenger lol
1969 Dodge Coronet 500-'gonna fix 'er up someday!'
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: NITROUSN]
#86401
07/10/08 03:02 AM
07/10/08 03:02 AM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
As stated these cars need virtually no body repair other than blocking out the bodies.
I am not looking for anyone to give me an estimate here, just the crash book times for refinishing.
Says you the so called ex-body shop owner. I can see why no one in your area will deal with you. Mister know it all with his own paint in hand.
You seem to create a very un-likeable personality in every forum you pop up in.
A typical know everything.
I really didn't want to go down this road but you are just suuucking me in.
What is your problem?
A know it all doesn't ask questions, he gives all of the answers. Does this shoe fit you? Are you standing in front of my car looking at it as I am?
So now tell me, who is the know it all?
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: MOBodyman]
#86402
07/10/08 03:12 AM
07/10/08 03:12 AM
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Mr T2U and MOBodyman,
I totally understand what both of you are saying.
OTOH, I was there when these cars were new and remember too how fenders and other body parts came off of the freight trucks with no covering and dented. If these are the "new" parts you are referring to, they certainly weren't bolt on ready.
Yes, the factory paint quality and body panels were not good back in the day, and Mopar was the worst. Again, OTOH, I think that the factory orange peel put out by the factories and the repair shops that people have come to find "acceptable" is pathetic.
All I really want out of this thread is an answer as to weather anyone has access to the crash book times for these cars.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
[Re: stumpy]
#86405
07/10/08 01:47 PM
07/10/08 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Macco will shoot it for $300. You get what you pay for and you don't seem to want to pay very much so that's what you'll get. Those crash book #s aren't going to help you one bit. They are so out of date they don't have any relavence anymore.
As I stated a couple of times in this thread, I really didn't want to get into all of this, but I guess I need to comment on what all of you Internet mind readers seem to believe what I am thinking.
1. I have no intentions of taking this to a traditional bodyshop and have it sit to be a fill in job during slow periods of collision work.
2. 90% of traditional body shops don't want this type of work and won't give you an estimate anyway.
3. Most restoration shops are out of control and have a license to steal based on the way that they do business of time and material.
4. I intend to strip the car that has been color changed myself before it goes to a bodyman so there will be no surprises. The other car does not need it. I am willing to pay $3500. for each car and provide all of the materials and paint. BTW, it has been my past experience (being on both sides of it) that the guys that do side jobs steal most of the material/supplies from their employer anyway.
5. That is a fair price for both me and the bodyman based on $25. per hour and $1000. or less for paint and material. That works out to 140 hours. If a bodyman can't do a super straight job and paint it with no orange peel then he has no business working on my car. $25. per hour tax free is like nearly $50. per hour taxed. How many of you body men are making $50. per hour?
6. I agree with member Stanton. Now you can't make a blanket statment that all resto shop are doing this but I know for a fact that a fellow that used to be a very good friend was doing this very thing. He just thought there was nothing wrong with maximizing his profit by backing into his estimates based on what the car would be worth finished. That ended our friendship. That is one of the big problems today for people that try to make a buck fixing up old cars for profit. The repair shops make all of the money and the guy with his money invested makes nothing or loses money. This is why the dealers buy done cars. They find people that have spent all of the time, money, aggrevation, and frustration doing a car and then end up selling it for less than they have in it.
Now, does any body have any crash book sheets from the late 60s--early 70s that they can scan the pages for Mopar and post them?
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86406
07/10/08 02:29 PM
07/10/08 02:29 PM
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i might have a book from 1967. it could take some time to find it though. i know it's stored in my warehouse with a lot of other stuff.
realistically in the end it doesn't matter what the book says, even though you want those times so badly. you already know what your willing to pay. if your not flexible enough to pay alittle more for a perfect job, what good does the time book do. you can't argue with a body man that the flat rate time says it takes this long to do the job and expect him to abide by it for your job 40 years later.
most of the guys i know won't guarantee any paint work if materials are supplied by the customer. one could argue that's bec ause they don't make any profit off of it, but they also don't have any control over the quality, brand or type of materials being provided either.
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Re: flat rates for paint work
#86407
07/10/08 02:47 PM
07/10/08 02:47 PM
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Quote:
i might have a book from 1967. it could take some time to find it though. i know it's stored in my warehouse with a lot of other stuff.
realistically in the end it doesn't matter what the book says, even though you want those times so badly. you already know what your willing to pay. if your not flexible enough to pay alittle more for a perfect job, what good does the time book do. you can't argue with a body man that the flat rate time says it takes this long to do the job and expect him to abide by it for your job 40 years later.
most of the guys i know won't guarantee any paint work if materials are supplied by the customer. one could argue that's bec ause they don't make any profit off of it, but they also don't have any control over the quality, brand or type of materials being provided either.
I would certainly appreciate it if you found that info.
I want it because my guess is that the crash book times for refinishing a complete car will be 1/2 of the hours I am willing to pay for.
I just need some baseline for this job. If someone can't refinish a stripped to the metal original sheet metal car car in 140 hours then they are in the wrong profession.
No where did I say I am looking for a PPG judged best of show paint job. I am just sick of looking at cars with fresh paint and DA marks under it and orange peeled paint. I drive my cars they are not trailer queens.
I plan on buying the material of the painter's choice so that will not be an issue. I am just not going to give them hard dollars that will end up buying beer and the car sitting there with nothing getting done. Nothing motivates a person more than having to stumble over someone elses car and not being payed for your time until it is done. As I said, this is not my first rodeo.
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