Upgrading suspension-need advice.
#842641
10/31/10 10:14 AM
10/31/10 10:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,070 Newton, KS
70B5Cuda
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,070
Newton, KS
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I would like your input/feedback on my 70 Barracuda project. It will be 5.7 or 6.1 EFI powered 70 Barracuda and will primarily be a cruiser, with the rare 1/4 mile duty. It will have 400 hp +/-25 hp. I just want to cut weight, handle well, and improve technology and reliability. I am struggling over suspension/handling components. I have already decided on the subframe connectors, LCA reinforcement plates, Just Suspension tubular upper A arms, disc brakes all the way around ( w/ aluminum calipers and aluminum MP master cyl), 2"drop spindles, and a front end rebuild using a mix of poly/rubber components. I am on the fence about the XV inner fender braces, engine bay brace, and tubular radiator support. Are these worth the money? Are the improvements gained from these components noticeable? Are there one or two of the XV components that are a must have? It seems like the engine bay brace would have the least impact of the 3 I am considering. Also I also will be doing a front sway bar and possibly a rear sway bar. I have already purchased new MP hemi leafsprings and MP hemi torsion bars. Are these T-bars/leafsprings the best choice for a handling 70 barracuda cruiser with a 5.7/6.1 and the rest of what I have described? I just don't want to be the guy that "opened up the magazine and bought a weird assortment of mismatched parts". Thanks for any input! Please let me know what you think of my parts list/choices and give me your input. Thanks
Last edited by 70B5Cuda; 11/02/10 08:47 AM.
1970 Barracuda B5 6.1 Hemi/6 speed 1969 Charger survivor in R6 383/727-wrecked 12/24/18 1968 Charger in original burgundy paint "Ribeye" 1968 Charger w/ 6.1L, TR-6060, 9" 1968 Roadrunner w/ 6.1L/6 speed 2011 Dodge Ram w/ 6.7L
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: 70B5Cuda]
#842644
10/31/10 10:43 AM
10/31/10 10:43 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801 central CT
cudazappa
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
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the XV inner fender braces and radiator support will do a lot for stiffening up the front end. I think many will argue the merits of the engine bay brace. I for one do not think that component is worth the money.
Past year I ran 1" torsion bars and 1 1/8 sway bar (stock rear suspension) and I found the ride to be very acceptable. I didn't get around to finishing the rear end (which I'm doing now). I was planning on the XHD leafs and 3/4 sway to get a nice balance. The only down fall was the shocks I used, they weren't really up to the task of the bigger bars in front. so hard bumps with my 17" rollers could be felt, but everything else felt fine.
1971 Challenger
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: 70B5Cuda]
#842646
10/31/10 07:33 PM
10/31/10 07:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,071 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,071
Irving, TX
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I would have gone with slightly larger T-bars. If you don't put at least a 3/4" rear sway bar on it you're simply not serious. A front bar will help level the turns but the car will want to understeer when pushed. That rear bar will make the fronts grab a bit better and do a lot for roll control.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: 70B5Cuda]
#842650
11/01/10 12:22 AM
11/01/10 12:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,482 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,482
So Cal
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- Hotchkis geometry corrected tubular upper control arms - 1.00" or 1.03" T-bars that are on sale for like ~$200 - Hotchkis lightweight tubular front sway bar and tubular adjustble rear sway bar. - Hotchkis RCD Bilstein shocks Quote:
I am on the fence about the XV inner fender braces, engine bay brace, and tubular radiator support. Are these worth the money?
Well in 1972 the more expensive B-body line got engine bay braces from the factory. Many road test articles from back in the day complained about cowl rattle in these cars. In about 1974 the A-bodies got the same type engine bay braces. The factory didn't add them because they looked cool.
If you looked at these cars with un-restored engine compartments in the junkyard and at shows you will see the spot welds between the inner fender and shock support seperated in a lot of them. Especially A-bodies.
IMHO, the order of importance on those three items would be 1) engine bay brace, 2) shock tower brace, 3) radiator support (but less costly/effort to install than #2)
Now I personally haven't run those items. And really to test them you'd have to add one on at a time individually and in combinations. But XV has put them on a four post rig and test chassis deflection.
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: 70B5Cuda]
#842653
11/02/10 12:40 PM
11/02/10 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
I just don't want to be the guy that "opened up the magazine and bought a weird assortment of mismatched parts".
If you go with this plan, you will become that guy. You have a nice list of stuff, but way more than you need of some things and not enough of others, IMO.
First, chassis rigidity is the foundation that everything else is built off of. It is the same as a house foundation, compromise here, and everything else is less than optimal. As such, I'd go sub frame connectors, inner front fender braces, radiator yoke brace. View the video on chassis stiffening at the XV website to see that these pieces are worth. I wouldn't bother with the XV subframe conenctors, but at least some sort of weld in unit is a big improvement.
Tubular arms, don't need em. Four wheel disc, don't need em. Just stick with big sized front ones. Drop spindles, don't need em. This is a wad of cash you don't need to spend on a cruiser unless you just want to to look cool.
I'd suggest, in addition to the bracing above,1.0 or 1.12 t-bars. As much shock as your willing to buy, and the best approach for these are the Hotchkis or Firm Feel Bilsteins. Certainly front and rear sway bars. The MP springs are nice, I like them, but many on here don't. Poly bushings, and a good alignment, being -.5 camber, as much positve caster to 4* and 1/32 to 1/8 toe in.
With that you will save yourself huge amounts of money, time, effort, and have a car that works as well as a later model, which will make crusing to shows that much more pleasurable.
Now, if you getting into aggressive driving or autocrossing, then that whole mix changes.
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: TC@HP2]
#842654
11/02/10 12:45 PM
11/02/10 12:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,482 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,482
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
I just don't want to be the guy that "opened up the magazine and bought a weird assortment of mismatched parts".
If you go with this plan, you will become that guy. You have a nice list of stuff, but way more than you need of some things and not enough of others, IMO.
First, chassis rigidity is the foundation that everything else is built off of. It is the same as a house foundation, compromise here, and everything else is less than optimal. As such, I'd go sub frame connectors, inner front fender braces, radiator yoke brace. View the video on chassis stiffening at the XV website to see that these pieces are worth. I wouldn't bother with the XV subframe conenctors, but at least some sort of weld in unit is a big improvement.
Tubular arms, don't need em. Four wheel disc, don't need em. Just stick with big sized front ones. Drop spindles, don't need em. This is a wad of cash you don't need to spend on a cruiser unless you just want to to look cool.
I'd suggest, in addition to the bracing above,1.0 or 1.12 t-bars. As much shock as your willing to buy, and the best approach for these are the Hotchkis or Firm Feel Bilsteins. Certainly front and rear sway bars. The MP springs are nice, I like them, but many on here don't. Poly bushings, and a good alignment, being -.5 camber, as much positve caster to 4* and 1/32 to 1/8 toe in.
With that you will save yourself huge amounts of money, time, effort, and have a car that works as well as a later model, which will make crusing to shows that much more pleasurable.
Now, if you getting into aggressive driving or autocrossing, then that whole mix changes.
Excellent bang for you buck plan and using you money wisely !!
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: 70B5Cuda]
#842655
11/03/10 01:00 AM
11/03/10 01:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,732 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,732
Bitopia
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Here's some input. Anybody boxing LCA that is not running 200mph on the Daytona high banks is wasting time, money, and weight. I have yet to be convinced aftermarket stiffened rad supports make, and little bang for buck, any real sense. Litte/few forces are input into the chassis in front of the K member, except for the sway bar, which is still behind the rad support. Much more chassis stiffness is gained adding bracing rearward. Check out most racing tube chassis cars, they have little bracing in this area except for resisting hard bumping/crashes. However if marketing expensive chassis addons requiring flash factor and videos, for those with little engineering background is required, then by all means be the first on the block with an alum formed lower rad support.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: jcc]
#842656
11/03/10 03:05 AM
11/03/10 03:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,482 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,482
So Cal
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Quote:
Here's some input.
Anybody boxing LCA that is not running 200mph on the Daytona high banks is wasting time, money, and weight.
I like a 1x3/4" strap of scrap steel on the back of the LCA to tighten the looseness in the adjuster arm. And another 1x3/4" strap near under the sway bar braket to support the over double sway bar spring rate when using 1 1/8" and more front sway bars.
Quote:
I have yet to be convinced aftermarket stiffened rad supports make, and little bang for buck, any real sense. Litte/few forces are input into the chassis in front of the K member, except for the sway bar, which is still behind the rad support. Much more chassis stiffness is gained adding bracing rearward. Check out most racing tube chassis cars, they have little bracing in this area except for resisting hard bumping/crashes. However if marketing expensive chassis addons requiring flash factor and videos, for those with little engineering background is required, then by all means be the first on the block with an alum formed lower rad support.
Why did the factory add those fender to cowl braces on 72 B-bodies and ~74 A-body??
XV did put that car on a 4 post rig. IIRC, you could see the flexing in the video.
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: autoxcuda]
#842657
11/03/10 09:10 AM
11/03/10 09:10 AM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,070 Newton, KS
70B5Cuda
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,070
Newton, KS
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Guys I appreciate the input! Please keep it coming. I can take advice. It will save me $$ and heartache later.
1970 Barracuda B5 6.1 Hemi/6 speed 1969 Charger survivor in R6 383/727-wrecked 12/24/18 1968 Charger in original burgundy paint "Ribeye" 1968 Charger w/ 6.1L, TR-6060, 9" 1968 Roadrunner w/ 6.1L/6 speed 2011 Dodge Ram w/ 6.7L
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: autoxcuda]
#842658
11/03/10 10:02 AM
11/03/10 10:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,732 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,732
Bitopia
|
Quote:
Quote:
Here's some input.
Anybody boxing LCA that is not running 200mph on the Daytona high banks is wasting time, money, and weight.
I like a 1x3/4" strap of scrap steel on the back of the LCA to tighten the looseness in the adjuster arm. And another 1x3/4" strap near under the sway bar braket to support the over double sway bar spring rate when using 1 1/8" and more front sway bars.
Quote:
I have yet to be convinced aftermarket stiffened rad supports make, and little bang for buck, any real sense. Litte/few forces are input into the chassis in front of the K member, except for the sway bar, which is still behind the rad support. Much more chassis stiffness is gained adding bracing rearward. Check out most racing tube chassis cars, they have little bracing in this area except for resisting hard bumping/crashes. However if marketing expensive chassis addons requiring flash factor and videos, for those with little engineering background is required, then by all means be the first on the block with an alum formed lower rad support.
Why did the factory add those fender to cowl braces on 72 B-bodies and ~74 A-body??
XV did put that car on a 4 post rig. IIRC, you could see the flexing in the video.
Say if you saw in the video the bumper shaking, would bracing the bumper to prevent shaking have any real improvement on handling in regards to chassis flex? Bottom line, bracing beyond the locations of the input forces is not efficient design.
The oem braces could have been for a number of reasons, regarding noise, hood alignments, controlled collapse upon impact, etc, I don't know, and I suspect it was not simpley for chassis stiffness for improved handling, but that is a guess of course.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: 70B5Cuda]
#842659
11/03/10 10:12 AM
11/03/10 10:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587 IL . usa
cjs69mope
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 587
IL . usa
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Get away from the hype ! just get stuff that works. I have a 69 Charger with a Firm feel two power steering box,Firm feel front sway bar kit. Firm feel tubular upper A arms with built in extra caster,urethane lower control arm bushings boxed lca's,reinforced and re-welded k frame, hemi front torsion bars and hemi rear springs with kyb shocks . 17 '' wheels and tires the ride is tight and smooth no rattles hardly at all .this car handles as good as any modern camaro or mustang from the 80's and 9o's on the street . what are you going to do with the car road race or auto cross ? or are you looking at expensive wow factor stuff on xv and want to impress people who don't have a clue ?
1969 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Superbee
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Re: Upgrading suspension-need advice.
[Re: autoxcuda]
#842660
11/03/10 10:36 AM
11/03/10 10:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,071 Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,071
Irving, TX
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Quote:
Quote:
I have yet to be convinced aftermarket stiffened rad supports make, and little bang for buck, any real sense. Litte/few forces are input into the chassis in front of the K member, except for the sway bar, which is still behind the rad support. Much more chassis stiffness is gained adding bracing rearward. Check out most racing tube chassis cars, they have little bracing in this area except for resisting hard bumping/crashes. However if marketing expensive chassis addons requiring flash factor and videos, for those with little engineering background is required, then by all means be the first on the block with an alum formed lower rad support.
Why did the factory add those fender to cowl braces on 72 B-bodies and ~74 A-body??
XV did put that car on a 4 post rig. IIRC, you could see the flexing in the video.
He's talking about IN FRONT of the K frame. The chassis braces you're talking about are behind the K frame.
I've questioned the lower radiator braces too. After digging into it a little, I can see they would make a difference. The chassis will twist from forces acting behind the K-frame. However, chassis flex is not limited to those areas. The entire chassis flexes. That means the frame rails will point in different directions as that happens. Tieing those ends together will help reduce the flexing. That reinforcement won't stop the cause of the flex but it will help limit the movement.
Don't even think about chassis cars. You'll just get yourself all wound up for nothing. The chassis builders can eliminate flex in ways that would be very invasive to passenger cars. Those center structures contain the forces very well. Instead of forward crossmembers eliminating twist they use bars tieing the front rails, suspension, and roll cage together.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon
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