Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Pinion angle #839049
10/25/10 08:08 PM
10/25/10 08:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
71rm23 Offline OP
master
71rm23  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
Theres a couple post recently about pinion angle and or a rear end. I didn't want to hijack their threads so I'll post my own. When removing the whole rear axle housing, should you measure the pinion angle FIRST, so you can put it back the same degree? No matter what rear you have. Is there a spec? Couldnt find one. Thanks

Re: Pinion angle [Re: 71rm23] #839050
10/25/10 08:50 PM
10/25/10 08:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
WILD BILL Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club
WILD BILL  Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,542
BROOK PARK, OH
UNless you have wedge shims in there and don't put them back in you shouldn't change the pinion angle just by removing and installing the rear axle.

Unless you are changing axels or cutting the spring perches off.

As for a spec, it depends on the type of spring and the intend use of the car as to what I would want to see.

Re: Pinion angle [Re: 71rm23] #839051
10/26/10 07:54 AM
10/26/10 07:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
H
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
top fuel
H

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
Quote:

Theres a couple post recently about pinion angle and or a rear end. I didn't want to hijack their threads so I'll post my own. When removing the whole rear axle housing, should you measure the pinion angle FIRST, so you can put it back the same degree? No matter what rear you have. Is there a spec? Couldnt find one. Thanks




5 to 7 degrees, NOSE DOWN according to the Mopar Performance Chassis Book. This angle is called the drive pinion angle. Drive pinion angle is the
angle between the driveshaft centerline and the centerline of the axle (rear end) drive pinion. This spec is for BOTH stick and
auto setups!!



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: Pinion angle [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #839052
10/26/10 08:39 AM
10/26/10 08:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
71rm23 Offline OP
master
71rm23  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
Thanks WILDBILL and Hyper. To be on the safe side, I'll measure the angle before disassembly, to have a reference.

Re: Pinion angle [Re: 71rm23] #839053
10/26/10 10:38 AM
10/26/10 10:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,017
Polson, MT
DoctorDiff Offline
master
DoctorDiff  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,017
Polson, MT
Pinion angle is the relationship between the transmission centerline and the pinion centerline, not to the driveshaft and not to the ground.

Ideally, the pinion should become relatively parallel to the transmission as the pinion wraps up under power.
This is how U-joints are designed to run.

Make the pinion parallel to the transmission as a base line, then tip the pinion downward 2 degrees (for a street car). This is referred to as 2 degree negative pinion angle.

As a rule of thumb, I don't like to run more than a true 4 degree negative pinion angle.

Re: Pinion angle [Re: DoctorDiff] #839054
10/26/10 10:58 AM
10/26/10 10:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
71rm23 Offline OP
master
71rm23  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
Quote:

Pinion angle is the relationship between the transmission centerline and the pinion centerline, not to the driveshaft and not to the ground.

Ideally, the pinion should become relatively parallel to the transmission as the pinion wraps up under power.
This is how U-joints are designed to run.

Make the pinion parallel to the transmission as a base line, then tip the pinion downward 2 degrees (for a street car). This is referred to as 2 degree negative pinion angle.

As a rule of thumb, I don't like to run more than a true 4 degree negative pinion angle.




Correct me if I have this wrong. Should I measure the angle of the tranny AND the rear end, in relation to eachother? Prior to removing the rear end then? Neither component has been removed or touched yet.

Also, the car has a 727 tranny and the rear is a 8 3/4. If I change to a Kiesler and Dana, would the angles be the same? I'm contemplating doing this. Again, thanks for the help.

Re: Pinion angle [Re: 71rm23] #839055
10/26/10 11:12 AM
10/26/10 11:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,017
Polson, MT
DoctorDiff Offline
master
DoctorDiff  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,017
Polson, MT
If you are only changing the rearend, you can usually duplicate the original pinion to perch angle on the housing.

You must set the pinion angle after installing a 5-speed transmission, however.

Re: Pinion angle [Re: DoctorDiff] #839056
10/26/10 01:38 PM
10/26/10 01:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
H
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
top fuel
H

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
Quote:

Pinion angle is the relationship between the transmission centerline and the pinion centerline, not to the driveshaft and not to the ground.

Ideally, the pinion should become relatively parallel to the transmission as the pinion wraps up under power.
This is how U-joints are designed to run.

Make the pinion parallel to the transmission as a base line, then tip the pinion downward 2 degrees (for a street car). This is referred to as 2 degree negative pinion angle.

As a rule of thumb, I don't like to run more than a true 4 degree negative pinion angle.




Doctor Diff, i think that we ARE on the same page with the pinion angle. Mopar refers to negative
pinion angle AS nose down! The centerline of the
driveshaft IS extended as a straight line through
the transmission output shaft. The ground is NEVER
used! Not arguing with you, but just simply reinstating what is in the manual. The 5 - 7 degree angle is correct with the lowest setting
used according to the "bite" or "hook". There is
no indication of these settings being different for superstock or XHD springs. 4 degrees will work
if the car hooks at that setting for you. 5-7, however is the baseline and you can work up or down from those settings.



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: Pinion angle [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #839057
10/26/10 03:14 PM
10/26/10 03:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982
Ansonia, CT
C
CJK440 Offline
master
CJK440  Offline
master
C

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982
Ansonia, CT
Quote:

The centerline of the
driveshaft IS extended as a straight line through
the transmission output shaft.




I suppose there is only one remote instance where you can simply measure the shaft to pinion angle and come up with a proper pinion angle measurement. When the driveshaft centerline is dead nuts in-line with the crank/tranny centerline.

The proper way is to take the shaft completely out of the equation and just check crank centerline to pinion centerline.

The idea of course is to predict the proper axle wrap up under load so that DrDiff said, the crank and pinion are parallel. This ensures both sets of u-joints are operating at equal angles and canceling each other out under power.

There is simply no way to check just the driveshaft to pinion angle and come up with that figure.

I also have never understood how you can adjust pinion angle to adjust hook. The only way I can see is that with improper pinion angle will create a bind that can hurt hook.


2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
Re: Pinion angle [Re: CJK440] #839058
10/26/10 10:04 PM
10/26/10 10:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
H
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
top fuel
H

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
Quote:

Quote:

The centerline of the
driveshaft IS extended as a straight line through
the transmission output shaft.




I suppose there is only one remote instance where you can simply measure the shaft to pinion angle and come up with a proper pinion angle measurement. When the driveshaft centerline is dead nuts in-line with the crank/tranny centerline.

The proper way is to take the shaft completely out of the equation and just check crank centerline to pinion centerline.

The idea of course is to predict the proper axle wrap up under load so that DrDiff said, the crank and pinion are parallel. This ensures both sets of u-joints are operating at equal angles and canceling each other out under power.

There is simply no way to check just the driveshaft to pinion angle and come up with that figure.

I also have never understood how you can adjust pinion angle to adjust hook. The only way I can see is that with improper pinion angle will create a bind that can hurt hook.




Mopars, being blessed with the excellent suspension they have, are the easiest to tune for
traction. The rear end goes through a balance of
two major forces acted on it. Left to right (torque twist to counteract the natural motion of
of the driveshaft motion of right to left) and the upward motion of the pinion (counteracting the downward force of the ring gear being turned).
As the pinion rises up to the body under torque on
the ring gear, the front half of the springs bends
to compensate the pinion rising above the transmission centerline (imagine a straight line from the rear of the trans to the pinion). This rise is positive (angle). Not good!! Causes wheelhop and hurts the suspension. Now the engineers figure out a way to combat this problem,
by PRELOADING or setting negative (nose down angle) below the trans - pinion centerline. Once the car is accelerating, this angle becomes straight and the pinion is in plane with the transmission. Thus the rear end is receiving 95-to nearly 100% torque from the motor/trans save for parisitic losses. And the springs are not as bent to create wheelhop and jounce. The pinion snubber aids also by taking the upward force of the pinion and raising the body upward and slightly rearward to HELP weight transfer to the rear wheels. All this gives better launches/60ft
times and a stable suspension while under acceleration. The rear end rotation from left to right is a reverse reaction to the torque placed on the ring gear. Superstock springs compensate for this by having more spring halves on the front half of the right spring than on the left.
The rear is level and you have maximum traction or
"bite or hook". The car leaves straight and nearly
level, depending on chassis age, level of tune in
motor/drivetrain and TOTAL WEIGHT (w/driver). All
these factors considered will make for a well-balanced ride.



"Stupidity is Ignorance on Steroids"
"Yeah, it's hopped to over 160" (quote by Kowalski in the movie Vanishing Point 1970 - Cupid Productions)
Re: Pinion angle [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #839059
10/26/10 10:39 PM
10/26/10 10:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
71rm23 Offline OP
master
71rm23  Offline OP
master

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,592
None
Good info, Hyper8..Thanks!

Re: Pinion angle [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #839060
10/26/10 11:03 PM
10/26/10 11:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 161
Huber Heights Ohio
G
greenpigs Offline
member
greenpigs  Offline
member
G

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 161
Huber Heights Ohio
I learned something today!


69 Charger RT
Re: Pinion angle [Re: greenpigs] #839061
10/27/10 12:09 AM
10/27/10 12:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum Offline
master
Magnum  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,791
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Be prepared for some vibration while cruising. 5 - 7 deg is a major angle for regular driving.

When you run a universal joint at an angle it will slow down and speed up 4 times / revolution. At 7 deg you will feel this. Unlike a constant velotcity joint.

It's good advice for weak springs or an extremely torquey drag cars


69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
Re: Pinion angle [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #839062
10/27/10 10:24 AM
10/27/10 10:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982
Ansonia, CT
C
CJK440 Offline
master
CJK440  Offline
master
C

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,982
Ansonia, CT
Quote:

Quote:

I also have never understood how you can adjust pinion angle to adjust hook. The only way I can see is that with improper pinion angle will create a bind that can hurt hook.




Mopars, being blessed with the excellent suspension they have, are the easiest to tune for
traction. The rear end goes through a balance of
two major forces acted on it. Left to right (torque twist to counteract the natural motion of
of the driveshaft motion of right to left) and the upward motion of the pinion (counteracting the downward force of the ring gear being turned).
As the pinion rises up to the body under torque on
the ring gear, the front half of the springs bends
to compensate the pinion rising above the transmission centerline (imagine a straight line from the rear of the trans to the pinion). This rise is positive (angle). Not good!! Causes wheelhop and hurts the suspension. Now the engineers figure out a way to combat this problem,
by PRELOADING or setting negative (nose down angle) below the trans - pinion centerline. Once the car is accelerating, this angle becomes straight and the pinion is in plane with the transmission. Thus the rear end is receiving 95-to nearly 100% torque from the motor/trans save for parisitic losses. And the springs are not as bent to create wheelhop and jounce. The pinion snubber aids also by taking the upward force of the pinion and raising the body upward and slightly rearward to HELP weight transfer to the rear wheels. All this gives better launches/60ft
times and a stable suspension while under acceleration. The rear end rotation from left to right is a reverse reaction to the torque placed on the ring gear. Superstock springs compensate for this by having more spring halves on the front half of the right spring than on the left.
The rear is level and you have maximum traction or
"bite or hook". The car leaves straight and nearly
level, depending on chassis age, level of tune in
motor/drivetrain and TOTAL WEIGHT (w/driver). All
these factors considered will make for a well-balanced ride.






OK, with an axle mounted traction device, I can see how changing the angle can have a effect on hook but wouldn't it be better to adjust the traction device itself.


2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
Re: Pinion angle [Re: Magnum] #839063
10/28/10 06:27 PM
10/28/10 06:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
H
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
top fuel
H

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
That's why you have to have a well-designed rear suspension (pinion snubber, spring clamps, SS springs and long shocks). The 5-7 IS the baseline for both types of suspension. The XHD being somewhat softer and less efficient at combatting wheelspin/wheelhop than the superstock springs would NEED at LEAST, the pinion snubber and spring clamps for better traction. Some cars may need to be closer to the 7 degree figure (ie; looser front end, high hp/torque, higher launch rpms 4500 up, rollcage, lighter weight) while "street" cars may be confortable with the
5 and lower settings (ie; warmed over stock motors, lower launch rpms 3500 down, no roll cage, somewhat midweight car, high torque, street gearing approaching 4.10-1 ratio) for stock or HD suspensions. Pinion snubbers: option for auto trans cars with SS springs, MANDATORY with XHD springs-all transmissions. Mandatory for stick cars with SS springs. If the suspension is weak or loose (read worn springs), naturally you WOULD want to put NEW ones on, before setting the pinion angle!! Otherwise, look to BREAK something or HURT somebody, mainly YOU!! Food for



Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 10/28/10 06:46 PM.
Re: Pinion angle [Re: CJK440] #839064
10/28/10 06:40 PM
10/28/10 06:40 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
H
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
top fuel
H

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
Would cause for a ROUGH ride on the street. The
pinion snubber WILL need a plate of 3/8"-1/2"
thick by 10"-12" squared sides, welded on the undercarriage above the snubber arm (centered ). This is to "spread" the upward motion of the snubber to transfer weight
and body motion towards the rear of the car to "plant" the rear tires for maximum traction.
Problem IS at ZERO clearance between the snubber head and plate (contact)is that it would "act" as a SOLID suspension. Hope you don't have loose teeth or dentures, could lose em after a short cruise on a rough road! The norm is 1"-2" clearance for automatic cars, 1" for stick cars, unless running faster brackets or classes move it closer to 1/2" clearance (cage with floor brace and pinion plate).


Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 10/28/10 06:58 PM.
Re: Pinion angle [Re: 71rm23] #839065
10/28/10 07:17 PM
10/28/10 07:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,114
Ontario, Canada
S
Stanton Offline
Don't question me!
Stanton  Offline
Don't question me!
S

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,114
Ontario, Canada
ONe interesting point from all of this - rear suspension height is insignicant. Since the trans is "fixed" and the pinion angle is relative to the trans, there is no adjustment to pinion angle required for height changes.

Re: Pinion angle [Re: Stanton] #839066
10/28/10 07:26 PM
10/28/10 07:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
R
RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
RapidRobert  Offline
Circle Track
R

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
Someone had said in a prior (rear axle) post that the magnetic gauges were actually not very accurate. I had thought they were a staple when measuring angles for this. What should be used.


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Pinion angle [Re: HYPER8oSoNic] #839067
10/28/10 07:51 PM
10/28/10 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
M
mopar4ya Offline
master
mopar4ya  Offline
master
M

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,655
western PA
Some very good info here. My question is how is the best way to check the transmission angle, in relation to the pinion angle. Do you measure off the yokes?
Second, I have a 67 B body that I have had a very long time. Over the coarse of years it has had a 440, a 426 Hemi, different torque converters,drive shafts, a Dana and a 8 3/4 rear. It has had different wheels and tires and different sets of gears.
The one thing that has always stayed is the surging vibration. If you run the car hard up to 80 mph and up you can not see out of the mirrors and everything in the car is shaking and vibrating. Sometimes very violent, and the next time hardly at all.
One night on the interstate the back of the transmission went south at about 130 mph . After all of these changes could this all be caused by the pinion angle? The only thing that I don't believe has been changed is the rear leaf springs.

Thanks
Dan

Re: Pinion angle [Re: mopar4ya] #839068
10/29/10 05:15 PM
10/29/10 05:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
H
HYPER8oSoNic Offline
top fuel
HYPER8oSoNic  Offline
top fuel
H

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,275
Desert Tracker
Quote:

Some very good info here. My question is how is the best way to check the transmission angle, in relation to the pinion angle. Do you measure off the yokes?
Second, I have a 67 B body that I have had a very long time. Over the coarse of years it has had a 440, a 426 Hemi, different torque converters,drive shafts, a Dana and a 8 3/4 rear. It has had different wheels and tires and different sets of gears.
The one thing that has always stayed is the surging vibration. If you run the car hard up to 80 mph and up you can not see out of the mirrors and everything in the car is shaking and vibrating. Sometimes very violent, and the next time hardly at all.
One night on the interstate the back of the transmission went south at about 130 mph . After all of these changes could this all be caused by the pinion angle? The only thing that I don't believe has been changed is the rear leaf springs.

Thanks
Dan




Did you use the XHD spring and never changed them out after so many years? Or did you use the factory 440 Magnum hd spring with the same duration of use? Weak springs GIVE a LOT of positive pinion angle (nose UP) when worn!! Note: HEMIS (all trans) and 440-6pack (all trans)440 Magnum (4speed ONLY w/DANA) use the SAME XHD spring. ALL 340, 360 HP, 383-400-440 Magnum engines (440's w/auto and 8-3/4 or DANA rears) use the "standard" HD spring.


Last edited by HYPER8oSoNic; 10/29/10 09:30 PM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1