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benefits of cnc engine machining?
#837272
10/24/10 04:47 AM
10/24/10 04:47 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
OP
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OP
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Delray beach, Florida
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i thought i'd throw a few video's together to share with you. here's one that involves probing the cylinder bores to blueprint them to the proper location and angle to the crankshaft. it's pretty easy to imagine the benefits of having the bore spacing and 45 degree angle correct. i need to finish the video's of bushing lifter bores, correcting angles, location, sizing, etc. it's amazing how far off some of the blocks are that we've done. ley me know if you'd like to see more.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpya5RpLWR0http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZmTQQuQT8w
Last edited by Performance Only; 10/24/10 05:14 AM.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Performance Only]
#837277
10/24/10 10:11 AM
10/24/10 10:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,175
Duloc
The Shadow
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Duloc
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Quote:
here's one that involves probing the cylinder bores to blueprint them to the proper location and angle to the crankshaft.
it's amazing how far off some of the blocks are that we've done.
I know this may be a stupid question but, how does probing the bores ensure you machine them in the correct location if they have been bored in the wrong location in the first place? 
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: JBurch]
#837278
10/24/10 11:00 AM
10/24/10 11:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,397
Pa
Hot 340
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
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Quote:
How come no coolant? A .125 cut is a hefty bite, I'm sure some heat was generated.
Not really, cast iron cuts like butter, USUALLY. OP, I think you are overthinking things, that probe wasnt cheap, and doesnt do more than standard edge finding (unless you like measuring from hole to hole- quickly,). But hey, knock yourself out.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Performance Only]
#837280
10/24/10 12:44 PM
10/24/10 12:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,397
Pa
Hot 340
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
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Quote:
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here's one that involves probing the cylinder bores to blueprint them to the proper location and angle to the crankshaft.
it's amazing how far off some of the blocks are that we've done.
I know this may be a stupid question but, how does probing the bores ensure you machine them in the correct location if they have been bored in the wrong location in the first place?
the probe measures the size of the hole and its location in relationship to the factory blueprint specs. if the holes are in the wrong location, which is common to some degree, the boring head can correct them as long as they aren't out of place more than the amount of material to be removed.
the machine will allow you to bore at the indicated location, or at the blueprint location or anywhere in between.
Terry, i'm not sure why you think the probe is "just" an edge finder. 
On THAT machine it is.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Hot 340]
#837281
10/24/10 01:05 PM
10/24/10 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
OP
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OP
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Delray beach, Florida
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since we're using that probe to help map out and write other programs with some pretty intricate shapes, it's clearly not an edgefinder only as you think. perhaps your just not aware of what it's capable of with the new software.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Performance Only]
#837282
10/24/10 02:17 PM
10/24/10 02:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,505
DFW
mr_340
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DFW
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What is the reference point to start machining? The BHJ Blok-Tru fixtures locate off the main and cam bores. I'm not entirely convinced that the cam bore is a good reference point if there was core shift on the block or the original machining was off. I've been thinking about the best method of locating the block to machine it. Would you sonic check the bores to see if they need shifted and then remachine everything else to match those locations? I'm sure almost everyone starts off the main bores, but who's to say they were put in correctly to start? I'm probably thinking too much about it, just thinking out loud here.
What sort of software are you using with the probe?
Floyd Lippencott IV
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Performance Only]
#837283
10/24/10 02:23 PM
10/24/10 02:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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Az
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Fell asleep on the 3rd hole. I like the concept - showing your shops / machine capabilities and education of clients, but I think most could get the idea ( with some dialog ) on just one hole.
Fastest 300
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Crizila]
#837284
10/24/10 02:43 PM
10/24/10 02:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,397
Pa
Hot 340
master
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master
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Pa
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Quote:
Fell asleep on the 3rd hole. I like the concept - showing your shops / machine capabilities and education of clients, but I think most could get the idea ( with some dialog ) on just one hole.
x2, i like threads like this... show us more.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: mr_340]
#837285
10/24/10 02:45 PM
10/24/10 02:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,397
Pa
Hot 340
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,397
Pa
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Quote:
What is the reference point to start machining? The BHJ Blok-Tru fixtures locate off the main and cam bores. I'm not entirely convinced that the cam bore is a good reference point if there was core shift on the block or the original machining was off. I've been thinking about the best method of locating the block to machine it. Would you sonic check the bores to see if they need shifted and then remachine everything else to match those locations? I'm sure almost everyone starts off the main bores, but who's to say they were put in correctly to start? I'm probably thinking too much about it, just thinking out loud here.
What sort of software are you using with the probe?
Starting point now would probably be the head dowels. But I wouldnt move much if everything soniced ok on pass car stuff.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Hot 340]
#837286
10/24/10 03:16 PM
10/24/10 03:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 644
Owego, NY
JBurch
mopar
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mopar
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Owego, NY
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Quote:
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How come no coolant? A .125 cut is a hefty bite, I'm sure some heat was generated.
Not really, cast iron cuts like butter, USUALLY.
The operative word here is "USUALLY".
Was it cast from virgin iron, or recycled scrap with carburizer thrown in to come up with a grade 30 iron. What's the Nickel content? Hemi block, I would guess that qualifies as a high Nickel block; it's not gonna machine like a soft chevy block. And you are correct .125in is not a real serious cut, I was thinking that coolant would hold the part thermally stable, and improve tool life, thus improving finished product. Why measure to 5 decimal places, repeat to 4, and have thermal instability take the benefits away at 3?
Just my 
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: JBurch]
#837287
10/24/10 03:22 PM
10/24/10 03:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
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Syracuse,NY
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Boring is done to within .004-.005, then the final ( hopefully 2 step) finish honing is done, which then allows you to take into account the thermal changes in the blocks/cylinders, as you go from end to end, side to side to let the adjacent cylinders cool. Most often you will do the honing, let sit overnight, then touch hone next day with no heat.This is where your 4th digit comes into play.
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: JBurch]
#837288
10/24/10 03:59 PM
10/24/10 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
moparts member
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moparts member
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Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
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Quote:
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How come no coolant? A .125 cut is a hefty bite, I'm sure some heat was generated.
Not really, cast iron cuts like butter, USUALLY.
The operative word here is "USUALLY".
Was it cast from virgin iron, or recycled scrap with carburizer thrown in to come up with a grade 30 iron. What's the Nickel content? Hemi block, I would guess that qualifies as a high Nickel block; it's not gonna machine like a soft chevy block.
We just machined first XR2 Block couple weeks ago, & definitely can tell the iron they are using is not near the quality of an R3 race block. XR had hard spots in it that was tearing up cutters & end mills.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: Performance Only]
#837289
10/24/10 05:55 PM
10/24/10 05:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
CRE2004
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,503
Illinois
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Quote:
since we're using that probe to help map out and write other programs with some pretty intricate shapes, it's clearly not an edgefinder only as you think. perhaps your just not aware of what it's capable of with the new software.
Absolutely! Looking good Dan! We have the same machine minus the 4th axis. The probe's reference point is whatever you set it up to be. Primarily, you want to set the bores up to use the crank centerline as the reference and correct the bores back onto the crank centerline. The bore spacing is also corrected if off. For lifter bushings, you can reference off the front thrust face. Correcting the lifter bores is crucial on any block. By doing so, it keeps the valve events the same between cylinders. Why buy a fancy CNC ground cam and put it a 40year old machined block 
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: BradH]
#837297
10/24/10 11:42 PM
10/24/10 11:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 13,247
Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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Nice piece of equipment Dan,,I see a numder of benefit's with equipment like that,,time and accuracy come quickly to mind. 
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: benefits of cnc engine machining?
[Re: BradH]
#837298
10/25/10 07:38 AM
10/25/10 07:38 AM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
OP
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OP
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thanks for the compliments guys. machines like this one are a huge investment, but we want to be able to offer our customers the best and most accurate machining possible. Mike, thanks for answering those questions hopefully that'll shed a little light on things for the guys regarding datum and reference points. until someone is well versed in the capabilities of these machines, there will always be some that will question what they can actually do. that's okay though. the accuracy and repeatability of these machines is incredible, but they aren't limited to just engine block machining. someone asked what program we use. Rottler has thier own program called "direct motion" which appears to be an off-shoot of Mastercam. we also use mastercam IX and X.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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