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Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: StrkrDart69] #811948
09/23/10 11:45 AM
09/23/10 11:45 AM
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Long Island, NY USA
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Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: BergmanAutoCraft] #811949
09/23/10 02:36 PM
09/23/10 02:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 90
Canada
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moparmat Offline OP
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The motor speed control module for the electric motor is going to be operating a dry sump oil pump.

Most pumps are driven at half the speed of the crank shaft. For an engine with max of 7000rpm at the very most, the pump will only spin to 3500rpm max.

The speed control is so that I can set the voltage to limit the lowest speed the pump will operate to maintain a specific PSI in the oil system. Also, when the engine load increases (rpms go up) the pump will automatically speed up so I will not have to turn the pot to increase or decrease pump speed. I can also use different gear ratios to overdirve/underdrive the pump.

When at the track, I can crank up the pot so the pump is at full capacity no matter what rpm. When cruising I can crank the pot down to limit the lowest speed the pump will operate and still maintain oil pressure no matter what the engine rpm is at idle.

I do not want the pump mounted where it is vissible. By powering it using an electric motor I can mount it anywhere out of sight. The lines also will not be visible. The stock pump will remain on the block without a shaft or rotors to power it. Simpley, it will be an oil filter mounted on the engine block.

Some of you might think this is rediculous, infact most of you probably will, but I want the car to appear as stock as possible. It is just my personal preference.

I just need some help to make it work and moparts is the place to find the knowledgeable fellas to help me with this project. My thanks to anyone who has an open mind and lends there advise to help me make my idea a reallity.

If STAR machine makes a electric battery powered pump, then the idea of an electric dry sump pump can not be that rediculous.


Last edited by moparmat; 09/23/10 02:39 PM.
Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: 451Mopar] #811950
09/23/10 07:56 PM
09/23/10 07:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 90
Canada
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moparmat Offline OP
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Quote:

You could add a MAP or Throttle Position Sensor to the engine/throttle which may be easier if that is what your module is expecting.
You could also take the tach signal as an input to a linear integrator circuit (Look up OpAmp theory.)

Hope this link works:
http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/ViewObject.aspx?ID=SSE5303

That would be a basic starting block. You would want to filter the output and maybe clamp the maximum output voltage depending on how sensitive the module you are connecting it to?




I think this may work, or the frequencey voltage converter.

The tach is the best point to find a frequencey based on engine rpm without adding any sensors.

I will be using an accusump with this system for added insurance.

Any other suggestions?

Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: StrkrDart69] #811951
09/23/10 08:14 PM
09/23/10 08:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,830
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:

If you want the water pump to vary with engine speed, use a belt




You know....I think I've seen it done that way before!

Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: moparmat] #811952
09/27/10 11:12 PM
09/27/10 11:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
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Quote:

Supercuda, please elaborate.

Where do I find a frequencey to voltage converter, what kind should I be looking for?

Please excuse my ignorance.

Thanks!




I don't know if someone makes an off the shelf setup to do what you want, probably but I dunno off hand.

The link to teh national site has the heart of what you want, but it would require some design work to do what you need, mostly a high current driver to run the pump since the converter itself will not handle the current load. This is an electronics design project of somewhat simple concept but not really a DIY thing if electronics are a mystery for you.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: Supercuda] #811953
09/28/10 07:01 AM
09/28/10 07:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,144
wellington ohio
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wellington ohio
if you try to run an electric motor at less than the specified voltage you will burn it up in short order! motors are engineered to run at a certain rpm and, according to ohms law, when you decrease voltage, current increases. when the current increases to maintain the motor rpm you will build so much heat in the motor that the windings will melt.

you need to "pulse" the motor with 12 volts to slow it down. aeromotive makes a fuel pump controller that works off the tack rpm to pulse the electric pump. it's 330 bones but is the right (only) way to slow down an electric motor.

again, if you run an electric motor at less than its rated supply voltage you will ruin it.


unions....the folks who brought you the weekend!
Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: StrkrDart69] #811954
09/28/10 08:04 AM
09/28/10 08:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,285
West Coast, USA
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I believe this is the poster who wants to run his OIL pump with an electric motor.


1970 Plymouth 'Cuda #'s 440-6(block in storage)currently 493" 6 pack, Shaker, 5 speed Passon, 4.10's
1968 Plymouth Barracuda Convertible 408 Magnum EFI with 4 speed automatic overdrive, 3800 stall lock-up converter and 4.30's (closest thing to an automatic 5 speed going)
Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: moparmat] #811955
09/28/10 08:34 PM
09/28/10 08:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:

The motor speed control module for the electric motor is going to be operating a dry sump oil pump.

Most pumps are driven at half the speed of the crank shaft. For an engine with max of 7000rpm at the very most, the pump will only spin to 3500rpm max.

The speed control is so that I can set the voltage to limit the lowest speed the pump will operate to maintain a specific PSI in the oil system. Also, when the engine load increases (rpms go up) the pump will automatically speed up so I will not have to turn the pot to increase or decrease pump speed. I can also use different gear ratios to overdirve/underdrive the pump.

When at the track, I can crank up the pot so the pump is at full capacity no matter what rpm. When cruising I can crank the pot down to limit the lowest speed the pump will operate and still maintain oil pressure no matter what the engine rpm is at idle.

I do not want the pump mounted where it is vissible. By powering it using an electric motor I can mount it anywhere out of sight. The lines also will not be visible. The stock pump will remain on the block without a shaft or rotors to power it. Simpley, it will be an oil filter mounted on the engine block.

Some of you might think this is rediculous, infact most of you probably will, but I want the car to appear as stock as possible. It is just my personal preference.

I just need some help to make it work and moparts is the place to find the knowledgeable fellas to help me with this project. My thanks to anyone who has an open mind and lends there advise to help me make my idea a reallity.

If STAR machine makes a electric battery powered pump, then the idea of an electric dry sump pump can not be that rediculous.










Star machine makes Electric Vacuum pumps @ 24 Volts to move Air.

You want to move Oil!

If you want to pump oil to 50# to 70# or so your going to need alot more then your controller Maxed out with heat sinks at 20 amps will give you.


I dont know the actual draw or motor torque your going to need with a dry accusump set up, but its up there IMO. 20 Amps isnt going to cut it .

I think this is the project killer. It takes power to pump oil to 70 psi and with flow to boot.

Im thinking your going to need around 70 to 100 amps at rpm


If it were my project I would first figure out the power draw of the Dry Accusump system and proceed from there. mike

Re: Electrical guru's! [Re: Sport440] #811956
09/29/10 03:13 PM
09/29/10 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,078
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Interesting.

I'd suggest a few things.
1) rather than base the pump output on engine RPM, why not base it on the oil pressure?
2) Many electronic gauges have 0-5v outputs intended for data loggers, my Autometer fuel pressure meter and I believe my oil pressure gauge both have such outputs. Even my Tach has a 0-5V output intended for data loggers.
3) Given the criticality of what you're trying to measure, I won't suggest any analog approaches to generating your 0-5V analog signal such as a simple CR circuit or you won't get predictable results and the voltage won't be very steady at low RPMs
4) Personally, I'd try pull a RPM signal ahead of the coil as that is a rather noisy signal that spikes to ~400V and as low as -400v depending on circuit design and has a lot of noise to the waveform as the spark plug lights off and as the coil oscillates after ignition. The other options are pulling either the reluctance signal (distributor signal line), or a crank trigger (digital or reluctance).
5) I would like to see a single integrated controller. Less chance of failure. Better overall control logic capability.
6) MAP, and TPS based voltage references might be a signal of "load": but not of RPM. But certainly seem suitable for merely controlling oil pump as you'd pretty much want it at full output when your foot is buried regardless of RPM.

If you can't find a gauge (Tach or Pressure) that delivers a 0-5V range signal, you can certainly build one.

Simply need something measuring the ignition pulses or something variable by RPM: coil, reluctor, crank trigger.
Condition the signal if needed: LM1815 is what I use to turn my distributor output into a signal for my micro and it's a good little chip.
Feed our digital frequency signal into something that will either drive your motor, or drive your analog voltage. A simple micro design can PWM control an electric motor easily. Not sure what box stock controller you could find but you'd need someone that know how to program it. If you just want frequency to analog output, lots of chips out there that do exactly that: LM2917. Be sure to select one in the frequency range you need (roughly 0-800hz are equivalent to 0-12,000 RPM on an even fire V8). Design for low ripple voltage at your lower RPM ranges (600RPM idle = 40 hz signal) but sensitive enough to rise as fast as the RPMs will when you rev it up.
If you are driving the motor yourself, you need to know the motor's current range to design the output side of that circuit.

I'm at work so I don't have the time at the moment to scour the net for general purpose micros that would allow you an end to end control solution. I know the micro running my car has 100% of the circuitry you need, but I'm not in the mood to build another board any time soon.

I think the simplest option might be to simply find a tach gauge with a 0-5V output and wire that to this controller you have. Or switch to a pressure sensor based logic and find a pressure gauge with similar 0-5V output.

One last brain fart!!! Aren't there some "Boost-A-Pump" electronics out there from Aeromotive and others that might actually also fit this bill, having even the electronics to run a 30A motor AND inputs for tach and pressure sensor?

Good luck.

Greg

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