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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782958
11/11/10 09:43 PM
11/11/10 09:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,130
Chicago Blackhawks
hemicar1971
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,130
Chicago Blackhawks
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As for drag racing this would never happen at a real track. If the time display does not come up on the tower at the end of the track you do not move into the staging lane. It is your job as the driver when it is your turn to make a pass to compare the time you have writen on the windows of your car to the time on the tower at the end of the track.If time does not appear they you can not compare. Also most bigger tracks have back up timers.
I went back to bracket racing from class racing. So if my dial time is 9:38 and I run under(faster)that time I loss. If I am slow off the light to leave and I run a 9:38 dead on my dial in and my opponent leaves earlier and runs near to his time I also loss.If I red light I loss.If I cross out of my lane,I loss. It is the first person across the finish line without fouling WINS. Everyone racing knows the rules.The rules do not change during a race.
As for having a car Judged, there should be a standard for every Vehicle. There is not one Judge on this earth that knows everything about every Mopar model built. I wonder if the Judges come prepared to the Nationals. You set up a time to be Judged at the Nationals so the Judges know what is to be Judged, but I have seen many misstakes in the far past and they have improved over the years and hopfully they will improve by having Judged all your cars.
I would say the Judges could not prepare for a Car like the one you brought to the Nationals this year. Just how many four door cars alone have they ever Judged at the Nationals.
I wonder how they would prepare for Judging if I brought a 1938 Dodge Coupe to be Judged or if a friend brought his 12 mile Viper. Just what could they find wrong with a 12 mile Viper that has be stored in a one temperature dust free garage since new. The Nationals need to release a list of the mistakes on the car being judged, how does anyone learn from their mistakes if this is not done.
Remember its their view of a mistake, and maybe there was never a mistake on the car in the first place. Its their opinion only.
1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: hemicar1971]
#782959
11/11/10 10:40 PM
11/11/10 10:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
......or if a friend brought his 12 mile Viper. Just what could they find wrong with a 12 mile Viper that has be stored in a one temperature dust free garage since new.
EXCELLENT example!! The cars need to be at least 20 years old to compete in the OE competition but lets use your particular scenario. If the Viper was still in pristine "like new" condition, it should get a perfect score....right?! (Just for the record, the Valiant DID NOT deserve a perfect score.) I was told that no vehicle would EVER receive a perfect score! With a statement like that, you would have to conclude that a deduction would have to be fabricated in order for a "time capsule vehicle" to be kept from achieving a perfect score. Does that make any sense? If someone were to bring a PERFECT representation of an assembly line vehicle, what would be the reason for not giving it what it deserves? Isn't a "perfect score" the goal that all OE participants are attempting to attain? Why couldn't other cars get the same "perfect" score if they ALSO achieved that level of restoration? Why is a Perfect score considered the "end" of the line as it relates to the OE program? These cars were not open ended or infinite with regards to their original factory condition! It is NOT impossible to do a "perfect" OE restoration in modern times!
There I go asking these ridiculous questions again! 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782960
11/11/10 10:46 PM
11/11/10 10:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,855
Georgetown Ontario Canada
anlauto
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,855
Georgetown Ontario Canada
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I think the only real cut and dry deduction was for the tires...You can't expect a perfect score when two tires were made in Canada and two in the US....I don't think you could even come up with a reasonable explanation for the possibility of how that could have happened... The rest of the deductions seem like hogwash or personal opinion of the judges...A nick in the kick panel could have been there when new? But with a car as perfect as this one, they need to look for things that are not perfect....not look for things that are perfect...If the trim had issues, then that's a deduction etc.... THE PROBLEM I HAVE UNDERSTANDING...Are ALL the cars held to the same level of scrutiny? Questions asked about deductions for reproduction batteries vs original batteries, or tires...those are legitimate questions.... And the simple fact the results are so vague ... well that's just bs. 
CHECK OUT MY NEW WEB SITE !
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: anlauto]
#782961
11/11/10 10:53 PM
11/11/10 10:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,304
Land of 10,000 Lakes
44D6PAKCUDA
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,304
Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Quote:
Are ALL the cars held to the same level of scrutiny?
No,I don't think so.A few years back I saw a car at the OE tent that a "famous" athlete owned and it received OE gold.There were at least 5 items under the hood alone that the novice OE guy would pick out.Maybe he scored higher it other areas to get the gold,I don't know but it sure seemed like it scored for who you were instead of what you had.
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: 44D6PAKCUDA]
#782962
11/11/10 11:01 PM
11/11/10 11:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,328
Toronto (YYZ) Ontario
YYZ
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,328
Toronto (YYZ) Ontario
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Politics is alive and well in the car hobby and it's far from restricted to Mopars.
A late next-door neighbour was into vintage autos - specifically '20s & '30s cars such as Packards, Pierce Arrows & Rolls Royces.
He embarked on a serious restoration of a 1923 Rolls Silver Ghost - no expense spared, no detail left untouched or inaccurate, similar to Dave W's approach. He had even won awards at Concours just for the chassis, even before the rest of the car was done.
2 incidents stuck with me:
1. He was forced to break a wing window to prove that it was indeed made of tempered glass, then got deducted for the broken window at a given show.
2. At another Concours he won best in class for Rolls Royce. Sounds good, right? However, the rules of the Concours were that the winners would be removed from competition the next year and instead be placed in a winner's circle exhibit. The catch? The following year, Rolls was the featured marque and his car, which was incredible was removed from the competition by this technicality. You win, you lose.
(though there was a really cool '64 Dodge sharing the winner's circle that year...)
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: anlauto]
#782963
11/12/10 12:28 AM
11/12/10 12:28 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
...You can't expect a perfect score when two tires were made in Canada and two in the US....I don't think you could even come up with a reasonable explanation for the possibility of how that could have happened.....A nick in the kick panel could have been there when new?
The deduction on the tires had nothing to do with two being from Canada and two from the US. The ORIGINAL set of tires were a mix match! Four tires were from the US and one was from Canada. Goodyear obviously had two suppliers for the 6.95X14 Whitewall-Power Cushion tires. Do you really think that when they ordered them, they gave a hoot as to what manufacturing plant they came from? A reasonable explanation Alan? Who would conclude that when the tires were delivered to the plant, the line managers instructed the employees to separate tires based on the tiny print on the back side walls that said "made in USA" or "made in Canada"?!? It was the DATES that did not coincide! Three (not two) of them were a few months LATER than the build date of the car.
As far as the kick panels, they were pristine! I have NO IDEA where that deduction came from. I will take close up pictures of both of them for you guys to see if you can find ANY blemishes. The interior of this car was one of the more perfect aspects of the vehicle even before the components were worked on. I personally detailed EVERY interior component and can Guarantee that we NEVER would have allowed "nicks" or flaws to make it to the Show. Unlike date codes on tires, THOSE things could have been addressed or fixed.
We were also deducted for the "door glass". It was the original glass and did not have even a single hairline scratch ANYWHERE on the surface(s). They were beautiful to begin with but I had Jon Dodds spend two days buffing both sides (of each piece) to make sure that they had no inclusions whatsoever! I guarantee that they looked as good (if not better) than the day they were installed. When I showed Jon the deduction on the Judging sheet, his Jaw dropped in dis-belief! If anyone is ever in our area or city, there is an open invitation to visit and inspect the car in person. See for yourself the things that have been discussed on this forum. The only deductions/flaws we were aware of were the tires (dates), the 1971 Muffler date and a plastic wire tie! That is it. 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782964
11/12/10 03:04 AM
11/12/10 03:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
68KillerBee
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,445
Missouri
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Quote:
If anyone is ever in our area or city, there is an open invitation to visit and inspect the car in person. See for yourself the things that have been discussed on this forum. The only deductions/flaws we were aware of were the tires (dates), the 1971 Muffler date and a plastic wire tie! That is it.
Just had an eye appointment today, so I'll come see it. Don't know what I'm looking for, but I'll look. From what I saw at the Nationals, this thing was perfect. But that is coming from me who has never took the time to look at a 4 door valiant... couldn't say if I ever even saw one at a car show before that. We all agree that the judging was screwed up, what is done is done. Hopefully they can learn from their mistakes and make everything an even playing field. No matter what, every car is different.... My dad and I looked at the 300 that was being OE judged and my dad pointed out a couple of things at just a glance that was wrong with it... Between my dad and his brothers, i'm sure they've had over half a dozen between them all. I said this before, and it was stated that they documented a lot of stuff on it and everything was how they found it. Even with that 300, it is an oddball car. You do not see them that often at all, so how can you say something is right. all i can say is you won Best of Show with a 4 door Valiant.... who would ever dream that would happen..
Just wondering why you didn't bring this to Monster Mopar Weekend?
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: 65pacecar]
#782965
11/12/10 10:32 AM
11/12/10 10:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,322
sixbbl69
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,322
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Quote:
Dave,
Again, Congratulations on a perfect restoration that apparently pushed the judges at the Nats beyond their knowledge. The only explanation for such a vague results sheet and lack of detail on the deductions is the fact they had to be grasping at straws just to create a few deductions. From what I understand the original idea behind the detail sheet was to let the car owner/restorer understand the deductions to give them a chance to correct the issues; giving the owner a chance to be judged again after a waiting period of 2-3 years. I have been involved with OE Restored cars in the past and I must say the Ford and Vette Programs do a much better job of documentation and communication with the owner concerning their cars strong and Weak points. The MoPar Nats are billed as the premier Mopar show in the world, the judging format and results information should live up to the same billing.
there is no such thing as a perfect restoration on a car.i think he needs to move on before they lock him up in the nut house.dave could start his own nationals and also be the head judge just for his cars.
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: sixbbl69]
#782967
11/12/10 11:48 AM
11/12/10 11:48 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
.....before they lock him up in the nut house.
....and where do you think I have been sending these posts from?
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: 68KillerBee]
#782968
11/12/10 11:53 AM
11/12/10 11:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Just wondering why you didn't bring this to Monster Mopar Weekend?
After reflecting on the "fun" that took place after the Nationals, I just didn't think I could take another minuet of all the enjoyment! 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: YYZ]
#782969
11/12/10 03:18 PM
11/12/10 03:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,365
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,365
Someplace you aren't
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Quote:
Politics is alive and well in the car hobby and it's far from restricted to Mopars.
A late next-door neighbour was into vintage autos - specifically '20s & '30s cars such as Packards, Pierce Arrows & Rolls Royces.
He embarked on a serious restoration of a 1923 Rolls Silver Ghost - no expense spared, no detail left untouched or inaccurate, similar to Dave W's approach. He had even won awards at Concours just for the chassis, even before the rest of the car was done.
2 incidents stuck with me:
1. He was forced to break a wing window to prove that it was indeed made of tempered glass, then got deducted for the broken window at a given show.
2. At another Concours he won best in class for Rolls Royce. Sounds good, right? However, the rules of the Concours were that the winners would be removed from competition the next year and instead be placed in a winner's circle exhibit. The catch? The following year, Rolls was the featured marque and his car, which was incredible was removed from the competition by this technicality. You win, you lose.
(though there was a really cool '64 Dodge sharing the winner's circle that year...)
Break a window?!
A rare one at that.
Simply out of hand. 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782970
11/12/10 03:43 PM
11/12/10 03:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,130
Chicago Blackhawks
hemicar1971
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,130
Chicago Blackhawks
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I started thinking about what I had done at work two weeks ago. I work for GM and the Camara side was down for the week for retooling for the new Buick. I walked into the Rim Room to look around and saw that the same 3 spare tire rims were still sitting on a platform. These rims have been sitting there for 6 months. I talked to the person that is the head of the Rim/Tires Assembly and we came to the conclusion that these rims should go back on the line. Now I start thinking in thirty years some guy is going to restore his 2011 Camaro and get a deduction for a spare tire rim that is 6 months out of date. It is the original rim that was put in the car in November of 2011 but the rim has a May of 2010 date code on it. I also started thinking of how the systems works. If you assemble all four rims and tires and put them on a car and one tire or rim is damaged during build and the assembly line would toss another rim and tire on the car at the end of the line. Now this tire and rim would of been built up months before and would sit at the repair station until needed. The rim and tire could sit for months, up to maybe 9 months. Now you would have 3 rims and tires with close date codes and one complete odd ball months apart from the other. This happens were I work once in a while. If the owner uses the four rims that came on his car at an OEM Meet he would be deducted for the oddball rim. This is why there should be standards so everyone could prepare and this owner could change the one rim to a closer date code so no deduction would be given.
I do not think there will every be a clear picture for all these deductions.
I have only known one vehicle that has ever scored a perfect score at any large Judging meet and that was Fawcett Motor Car of Whitby Ontario. Now there could be others. Fawcett"s deal with Model "A" and "T"s.
1971 HEMI E BODY REGISTRY
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: moparjohn]
#782973
11/13/10 11:46 PM
11/13/10 11:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
....My Daytona was listed on the results as the second highest scoring OE GOLD car. You can debate a lot of things but I think the result was correct......In fact the one we put in the trunk still had the original GOODYEAR sticker on it!
First of all John, Congratulations on your OE results!! This years point system was actually different than the 2008 Nationals I attended. The white Challenger scored 2779.5 out of 2801 points, where the Valiant scored 2240.75 out of 2250 points. The percentage is the actual barometer for how well the car scores in the overall scheme of things. While the Challenger had a higher point total, it had a lower overall percentage. The Challenger scored 99.23% where the Valiant scored 99.59%.
As far as the trunk/spare tire John, the Valiant had no deductions. Your spare might have had a deduction due to the sticker that you mentioned. Original factory tires (including spares) never came with a sticker affixed to them. That is a tell tale sign that the tire is a service replacement. Just out of curiosity, what was the final point total for your OE Gold Daytona? Again, great job and Congratulations! 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: moparjohn]
#782975
11/14/10 09:50 PM
11/14/10 09:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
.....The same for not over spraying all the components under the hood like when they were converted.
I completely understand. With the Valiant, there was a factory "flaw" in the roof of the car. It was a very slight impression that ran from the front all the way to the back. You almost couldn't see it unless you were in certain lighting and standing in just the right position. It came out with some block sanding. We could not bring ourselves to leave it the way it was. I guarantee that it would have been a deduction if we had!
The Cuda that I bought in 2005 was under the same points scale that we had this year. It scored 2204.5 out of 2250 and was "dinged" for the paint being too nice! Oh well......! 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782976
11/17/10 05:53 PM
11/17/10 05:53 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Dave,
Its a shame that they do not give you the area that was deficient. I know for AACA (antique automobile club of america) judging and shows, you can only get a copy of the judging sheet if you did not get the award you were going after. They NEVER release point deductions for the areas but they will highlight the area as it is the owners responsibility to "know" their car. Now, I know AACA judging rules used to be as the car would have rolled off the assembly line but then they had to modify it to as it would have left the show room floor. Reason being, some cars, I want to say Fords, could have come with a dual quad carb'd engine. From the factory, it was quicker for the factory to install a single 4 bbl carb and intake and ship the dual quad intake and carbs in the trunk of the car and let the mechanics at the dealership install and tune the engine. Now, by AACA's previous rules for judging, the person should have to remove the dual quad, reinstall the single quad and intake and then place the new/unused intake and dual quad set up in the trunk. What fun would that be to have a dual quad car only to drive around with a single quad? This is why it was modified to be "as the car COULD have left the dealership". Meaning, runs in paint, fish eyes, things taken into consideration for mismatched parts, etc.
Now get back up on your soap box you Grinch and proclaim how your car was the biggest turd out there in the show field. (btw, I still envy the detailed work you do and the cars you have)
Hope you are doing well my friend.
Brian
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