dave you are 1000% right

dont stop asking, you wouldn't if it was someone else

you need to find out the areas to "correct" to make your car "nationals oe correct" whatever that may be

i'd like to know too,

its great to have a judging forum + i know it cant be easy,the judges should be commended for that,
but it needs to be based on something real, not figure it out or make up new criteria as you go along

is there a judging point sheet available?

off topic but a connected story,
many years ago, like close to 20, i wanted to become a "certified" classic car appraiser.
1 company nationally accalimed apparaisal company told me i needed to send in my appraisal form him + the guys would review it and let me know. for obvious reasons i didnt follow through with them, but i did with a apprasial company that made me go through lengthy seminars and testing prior to me getting certified.

if the oe judging has become too big for the current judging platform then maybe they need to stepback, regroup, reorganize + get better.

not just have a group of guys talking back and forth to come to a conclusion of the day.

id much rather hear "whoa dave, we havent inspected a car like this before + due to the over the top resto we now realize that we need to revamp our judging to properly judge and reflect a level of restoration that you have brought to us" not "were dinging you in this area",

like you said, you just want simple answers to simple questions

peace to all
tony

what i take out of him not answering your questions is that he has no idea and there is not "standard" i'd guess you would call it while they are judging. they just wing it and make sure you don't get a perfect score. sounds like a bunch of BS to me. if they deducted points then they better know what they deducted for. how else are ya supposed to get better? what a freaking joke the whole thing is. yea we took points off but can't tell ya why.

hi
there is a standard,
ive figured it out

below are all of the descriptions of the judging point system:

nick
deduction
highest quality
no deductions
small deduction
couple of small partial deductions
date coding
almost flawless except for one deduction
no deduction despite discussion
partial point deduction
like brand new

no why would anyone have a hard time figuring out that point structure

Dave,with all thats been "exposed" in this post about the OE judging system,do you think,if you do another OE car,that you will be judged fairly or maybe looked at as being the "bad guy".

I agree 100% Dave.I wonder what the future holds for Mopar Nats OE judging.......

So let me get this correct.....these "judges" say there are things wrong with the car but they won't tell you what the problems are?? Is that correct??

I'm sorry but that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

As far as I'm concerned, what little credibility those "judges" have just went out the window.

I think its time for change. Why would someone want to spend tons of money and time and get unsatisfied results. I have watched the judging process for the last 3 years at mopar nats and had one of my customers car judged there. The judges that judged new less about the car than the owner. For example, the judge told me he did know the difference beteen a repro dash pad and a original one. We lost a point because we had a bigger gap on one side of the grill than the other. I have seen over a 100 cars with the same factory defect. It seemed to me that class we were in that repro parts scored higher points than NOS factory original. I wish they would tell guy that up front. They take points off for halogen headlights but not a repro dash. My excitement of taking another car to nats to get judged has been lowered since I have seen the judging process.

The "deduction" that baffles me the most is the one for the ACCESSORIES & BATTERY where we were given "almost flawless except for one deduction". Since there are one thousand accessories to the car, what was the deduction allocated to? I mentioned in an earlier post that my OE Challenger had a reproduction battery and received no deductions in 2008. This car had a BEAUTIFUL-FACTORY-CORRECTLY DATED-ASSEMBLY LINE BATTERY with NOS FACTORY-ASSEMBLY LINE-PRISTINE CABLES and we received a "deduction". I have personally NEVER seen another entry go through OE Judging with an assembly line battery in perfect working condition! The battery hold-down was original to the car and the rubber was LIKE NEW as well as the hold-down rods and attaching hardware!! Here are a couple pictures that show the battery and the cables.

You got jobbed Dave, really you did.

I know that you enjoy, or did enjoy, this part of the hobby.

I could NEVER get into it. This crap is exactly why.

If all cars were made to "roll on repops", there would be no tire controversy. It is just stuff like that that makes me glad I stay away.

Other than the free entertainment. That I will take in.

Good luck and if you make it down here, look us up for a good time.

Thank you VERY much for the post! I will always enjoy this stuff. I just can't figure out how I became the "bad guy" in all of this. All I did was ask some questions to convey to the rest of the Valiant team. (Tom Barcroft, Steve Been and Dave Stuart) I would have thought that with three Gold OE entries in the past five years, the Sponsorship Support and involvement with manufacturing some "okay" products for the industry, we might be considered an advocate to the program. Instead, I am shocked that this car has drawn so much animosity (and ill will) with a few people following the conclusion of the event. From anonymous people contacting the Magazines (trying to ruin our feature) to the stand off attitude of the Judges, this project has me dumbfounded with regards to the "after" Show responses.

Weird....Weird....Weird!

Dave,
This is the classic case of the student who knows more than the teacher syndrome.
The teacher does not know how to get out of the corner so let's just be vague about the results
and hope it all blows away.Where are the judges on this thread ? Why don't they chime in and discuss this?
Why don't other judges for that matter contribute their opinon in this matter?
Jules

Dave I look at this alittle differently. This is a game and the rules are not set in stone. They can change with new judges and new information,personal opinions, on and on. Until there is are proper standards to follow when judging any mopar the judges are free to judge anyway they would feel correct. Now you have posted every detail of your restorations. That is good for the public, but it is not always good for the Judging of your cars. These Judges have seen your posts on moparts and know most things that you have done to your car before they ever see it. They know the places to look for repro products and non correct date codes. I bet your car was on the judging plateform longer than all the other cars that were Judged. The Judges at the Nationals, I have watched them and have wondered how these huge men can get into a car and even look for things in hard to get to places that have dates codes. I do not know if they were the same Judges in 2010 but I had to laugh when watching them in 2008.

The Standard to reach is Gold at the Nationals and your cars have reached this.

This is why I drag race my mopar. The rules are set in stone.It is up to me to produce on the track. If I screw up being late on the light or run under my Window time it is all my fault, not any Judges fault.

Dave,

Again, Congratulations on a perfect restoration that apparently pushed the judges at the Nats beyond their knowledge. The only explanation for such a vague results sheet and lack of detail on the deductions is the fact they had to be grasping at straws just to create a few deductions. From what I understand the original idea behind the detail sheet was to let the car owner/restorer understand the deductions to give them a chance to correct the issues; giving the owner a chance to be judged again after a waiting period of 2-3 years. I have been involved with OE Restored cars in the past and I must say the Ford and Vette Programs do a much better job of documentation and communication with the owner concerning their cars strong and Weak points. The MoPar Nats are billed as the premier Mopar show in the world, the judging format and results information should live up to the same billing.