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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: LimeliteAero]
#782899
10/27/10 10:49 AM
10/27/10 10:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Dave,
I think youre looking too hard at the situation. without the HEMI's and SIX-PAC's thered be no reason to do the Valiant....we'd all be driving Corvettes.
Hi Dave,
I really don't have an extreme view for any of this. I just take things for what they are and go with flow. What I meant was that without the bread and butter cars there never would have been the BIG DOGS that seem to be the backbone of the hobby today. It was the opposite years ago! If you look at the production numbers, there is no way that ANY manufacturer could have been successful if they strictly relied on the sales of their specialty "Muscle Cars". In most cases, the Hemis, Boss Mustangs, Ram Air GTOs, etc.... were all loss leaders for the Car Companies. They probably didn't make a dime on ANY of those cars. It was the vehicles that had sales in the "hundreds of thousands" that allowed the funding for the FUN stuff! Hemi & 440X6 vehicles were basically built to draw attention to what was happening within the Manufacturer's specialty programs. Most couldn't afford those highly optioned vehicles so they settled for their less expensive brethren! Just to own something "related" to those cars was considered a badge of honor!
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: LimeliteAero]
#782901
10/27/10 12:19 PM
10/27/10 12:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
I understand wht youre saying but what I meant was, we wouldnt be enjoying the beautiful oddity of your recent work had it not been for the "popular" cars.
Very True!!! This one was certainly different and a FUN restoration to be involved with! When we first got the car we took it out for a test drive. It had such a neat feel to it and was a complete throwback in time. 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: Mike Mancini]
#782904
10/28/10 11:11 PM
10/28/10 11:11 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
I also don't get the deduct for the clear overlay. ....... Was there deducts also for the reproduction ECS decals throughout the car?
Neither do I Mike or the other guys who were involved with the Restoration of the car. The original VIN was preserved but the clear border was meticulously removed so a new overlay could be applied. To answer your second question......NO! There were no points deducted for the reproduction emissions or the jacking Instructions decals. ANYONE would have known that the Jacking instructions was not original because the material was new and not yellowed! We even did a side by side photo comparison of the original and replacement, showing how we positioned them exactly the same. When I asked about the "VIN overlay" deduction in an email, I was rhetorically asked, "Did the door sticker come with clear vinyl over it?"
My response was, "To answer your question about the overlay.....NO....it was not the original one that was applied over the original decal. Based on your rationale (as it pertains to THAT subject matter) should I assume to see deductions for the reproduction paint used on the original body panels of the car, the reproduction plating on the original nuts and bolts, the reproduction chrome on the original front bumper, the reproduction blue paint used on the dash frame, the reproduction paint used on the original engine, the reproduction paint used on the original rear end housing, etc.... If you did not deduct for those areas (which fall into the EXACT classification as the overlay) what discriminating criteria did you use to ignore or distinguish between those same differences?"
I am starting to suspect that there were things fabricated to keep the score from being too high or close to the "unobtainable" perfect mark! After the door handle issue came out five weeks AFTER the end of the show, I think that particular area was used to shift or transfer "some" points to take the place of having the "wrong color P/S fluid"! There appears to be an additional 5-6 points that were not mentioned at the time of the Judging at the show. I simply asked what they were and have received nothing but evasive answers. Where is the rationale or linear thought process as it pertains to the Judging criteria? What am I missing here?
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782905
10/29/10 01:20 AM
10/29/10 01:20 AM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Dave, what you are missing is the fact that they are ripping your car apart unmethodically (if thats even a word) just to make themselves feel better and to leave the highest score still obtainable by a yet to be determined person. I agree its total and complete BS since they are not giving you a straight answer or even an answer as to what the exact break down of point deducted is.
Hands down your Valiant has got to be the closest and probably THE best restoration yet anywhere. unfortunately, JEALOUSY rears its ugly head every so often only to spite things that they, themselves, can not achieve or have no desire to achieve!
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: JulesdaWiperman]
#782907
10/29/10 09:53 AM
10/29/10 09:53 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,202
Long Island NY
ErikR
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,202
Long Island NY
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Quote:
Simple logic indicates that in order for them to give you a perfect score , THEY would have to know
how to PERFECTLY restore your car and I am positive they don't.
Jules
exactly. This is exactly what turns me off the the whole OEM judging process. What are the EXPLICIT criteria? Maybe the explicit criteria for a perfect score are gonna be different for each car 
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ErikR]
#782908
10/29/10 10:43 AM
10/29/10 10:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,640
Nashville, TN
MOPARMIKE69
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,640
Nashville, TN
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I am completely amazed. This thread that has some awesome pictures and an incredible tail about the process of restoring and showing the lowly 4 door, has degenerated into a bunch of judge bashing and mindless speculation by those who have never been a part of the OE process. Never restored a car to this level or judged at a National event. Dave won, he scored the highest ever points, he has received more praise for his efforts than anybody in the History of mankind.... and it is still not enough? So what if he didn't score perfect. This is a subjective hobby. My God people move on. Oh and by the way ErikR, "the explicit criteria for a perfect score WILL be different for each car." Mopars are not cookie cutter cars. No one car is like another, each car is one of one. I think that Dave has made the perfectly clear with his documentation. Again.. HE WON... let's celebrate with a beer not a bunch of W(h)ine! 
69 Road Runner vert
69 GTX hard top
70 Road Runner 4 speed
70 Hemi Cuda vert
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#782909
10/29/10 11:39 AM
10/29/10 11:39 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,202
Long Island NY
ErikR
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,202
Long Island NY
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Quote:
Oh and by the way ErikR, "the explicit criteria for a perfect score WILL be different for each car."
great, you get it!
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: MOPARMIKE69]
#782910
10/29/10 11:58 AM
10/29/10 11:58 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Again.. HE WON... let's celebrate with a beer not a bunch of W(h)ine!
Hi Mike,
With all due respect, this is not about winning or the highest score! It is about transparency and cohesive consistency within a Judging program that should be available to everyone. Let me ask you a question Mike. How much money could someone steal from you before you would consider them a Thief?.........A Penny? One Dollar? Five Dollars? Ten Dollars? One Hundred Dollars? It isn't the "win" or the "high points" that is the concern here. It is the principle of things! Not a single point should be manipulated or unaccounted for in ANY program. My involvement with this program is obviously finished. I don't expect to change anything concerning the outcome of the event. If however ANYONE in the future can benefit from the scrutiny and observations that have taken place from this project, that would be the greatest WIN or VICTORY that I could hope for!
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782911
10/29/10 12:40 PM
10/29/10 12:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,855
Georgetown Ontario Canada
anlauto
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,855
Georgetown Ontario Canada
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Dave I think you've made it quite clear that this will be your last attempt at the OE judging events.. So maybe a new goal for you would be to see about getting yourself on the judging team ?You obviously bring a tremendous amount of knowledge to the program, as Jules said, your past performances with the three Mopars should prove you more then qualified  Maybe if they're not willing to expand their team, you could be an associate judge. Attend the judges meetings, view the cars, offer opinions, do research...whatever it takes... Just a thought 
CHECK OUT MY NEW WEB SITE !
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: JulesdaWiperman]
#782912
10/29/10 12:56 PM
10/29/10 12:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
David Walden
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David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Forget about all the judging thing and enjoy the fact that this level of restoration will NEVER be outdone.
If I eat my words in the future, I would love to see a side by side with your car.
Jules
It would take a monumental effort to better this vehicle Jules. The time and artistic craftsmanship it took to construct this car was mind boggling. It took four of us the better part of two years (at LEAST 14 hours a day) to get this car to a "new" Factory level. I don't think I will ever try to top it because there is LESS than even a very "fine line" for any improvement. There is actually a greater risk of going backwards than improving on it. The only way I see doing it "better" would be to take a car that had been put away new and never driven, take it apart to refurbish/restore the years of oxidation and then perfectly reassemble it. Keep in mind that you would be crucified for ruining a perfectly good Survivor! Then again, with all the dust I have stirred up, maybe the Judges can't wait to give a "less deserving" car a higher score just to teach me a lesson.  You would hope that would never be the case but I guess anything is possible in the World of subjective Judging!
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782913
10/29/10 01:28 PM
10/29/10 01:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,689
South Dakota
hotairballoonpilot
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,689
South Dakota
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just wondering Dave
Who are the judges? Do they come on here or members here? I agree that what it took finacially to even enter this arena you should be allowed to see the actual sheets. Now take a local show that we put on that people pay 15 bucks tops to enter a judged class that compete for a 15 dollar trophey are they entitled to the same? yes no? to me not the same.
good luck
corey
Contact Me about AMD Prices
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: ECS]
#782916
10/29/10 04:08 PM
10/29/10 04:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
Dave I told you this half way through your project, " You will never get a perfect score" because
the judges themselves are not perfect!
One day it's black the next day it's white.
Simple logic indicates that in order for them to give you a perfect score , THEY would have to know
how to PERFECTLY restore your car and I am positive they don't.
You are the only guy that has researched your car to death.
Forget about all the judging thing and enjoy the fact that this level of restoration will NEVER be outdone.
If I eat my words in the future, I would love to see a side by side with your car.
Jules
Great post Jules!
Dave, as I've said before, amazing job on the Valiant! Even though I have never seen it in person it's pretty obvious that you've set a new high water mark regardless of the score you recieved.
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Re: OE Gold Valiant Pictures From The Mopar Nationals.
[Re: JulesdaWiperman]
#782917
10/30/10 08:39 PM
10/30/10 08:39 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
What's changed is that concerning this car you know more than the judges so they won't tell you why because
you will be able to prove them wrong and as such damage their credibility.
Jules
Jules, you are probably more right than you know! For example, the whole power steering fluid incident where Dave proved them wrong in BLACK and WHITE! Now they are probably scared to even point out what deficiencies there are with cars.
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