Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: MR_P_BODY] #775621
08/17/10 05:40 PM
08/17/10 05:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
5
540DUSTER Offline
mopar
540DUSTER  Offline
mopar
5

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
If you don't believe the geometry changes,then how about rocker arm ratio?

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: 540DUSTER] #775622
08/17/10 05:47 PM
08/17/10 05:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

If you don't believe the geometry changes,then how about rocker arm ratio?




Its changing the ratio... why is the geometry changing

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: MR_P_BODY] #775623
08/17/10 06:21 PM
08/17/10 06:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
5
540DUSTER Offline
mopar
540DUSTER  Offline
mopar
5

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 531
USA
Mr P, You are right it doesn't change the relationship of the valve tip to the rocker;But if the adjuster ball is closer to the rocker,lift will increace.

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: bigtimeauto] #775624
08/17/10 06:41 PM
08/17/10 06:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
bigtimeauto Offline
Trophy Winner
bigtimeauto  Offline
Trophy Winner

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,646
Plymouth Meeting, PA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



However: it may push your geometry over the cliff.

Every time someone says "use lash caps" I get a headache.





i'll bite how will the rocker adjustment change the geometry on a shaft system?

A lash cap will barely do it,after that you need shims or mill the head stands to change it. to many threads down will only break the adjuster or block oil from coming out of some screws.





a simple i wasn't thinking clear is good for me





waiting.......


BB, TT5,Procharged 3300lb Street Car 4.79/154
Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: 540DUSTER] #775625
08/17/10 06:46 PM
08/17/10 06:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

Mr P, You are right it doesn't change the relationship of the valve tip to the rocker;But if the adjuster ball is closer to the rocker,lift will increace.




Yes you are correct that it will change the ratio
due to the distance of the contact point on the adjuster
up to a point... if you take a straight edge and go from
the contact point of the rocker/valve point through
the center of the shaft then continue to the push
rod side that point is where it would be at the
optimum for the adjuster to be at(point of contact
for the push rod and rocker)

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: Von] #775626
08/17/10 09:07 PM
08/17/10 09:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
H
Hemiroid Offline
super stock
Hemiroid  Offline
super stock
H

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 705
Michigan
Quote:

Quote:



Hey PVP......I've got a few extra sets of pushrods laying around.....Bring by what you have and we can see if I have something that'll work better........




I may take you up on that!! Ive got some rough measurements. Depending on which adjusters I use I need either 9.040 effective length or 9.140.

Got anything close?

Thanks, you big




That's too funny. My crappy Crane rockers I bought for my hydraulic cam in my GTX has EXACTLY those same push rod dimensions. Half of the rockers were of a fairly new batch and the others were antiques with different adjusters. That being said, the distance from the beginning of the threads and the tip of the ball are different, so simply using thread exposure isn't always accurate.

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: Hemiroid] #775627
08/17/10 11:08 PM
08/17/10 11:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
A
ahy Offline
master
ahy  Offline
master
A

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
1.25 - 1.5 sounds good to me. Check oiling with a drill motor and turning the crank. If OK you are ready to go.

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: ahy] #775628
08/17/10 11:26 PM
08/17/10 11:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
P
Performance Only Offline
top fuel
Performance Only  Offline
top fuel
P

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
technically speaking, adding lash caps does change the geometry. it doesn't change the fulcrum point, but it does change the sweep of the rocker tip over the valve tip. also, moving the adjuster farther or closer to the fulcrum to change the ratio, also changes the geometry since the force applied from the pushrod needs to be greater since it is closer to the fulcrum on that side.
think of a teeter totter for a reference. it's all basic geometry. now replace the kid at either end with a valve tip and a rocker adjuster at either end. any time you change the position of any of the three pieces, your changing the "geometry", regardless of how much and regardless of the effect.


machine shop owner and engine builder
Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: MR_P_BODY] #775629
08/17/10 11:57 PM
08/17/10 11:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
Bob_Coomer Offline
master
Bob_Coomer  Offline
master

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,293
Rock Springs
LOL, You guys would argue over the color of a black board.
I dont understand why were talking and even arguing about stuff that is irrelevant, doesnt matter and cant change LOL
-Push rod length doesnt effect geometry
-how much adjuster is hanging out doesnt affect geometry
How far the adjuster is located from the cup does change the ratio, how else would one change it?
It cant be changed unless you buy another rocker arm so why bring it up?
also with little to no thread protruding from the rocker arm can cause problems with push rod interference where the cup actually contacts the rocker body.
This isnt a problem with cup adjusters and ball end/ball end push rods...
I have no proof or hard evidence but I truly believe that cup adjusters and ball end/ball end push rods are better than cup style push rods from burning up etc. But thats another story and doesnt matter here either.
Lash caps will effect geometry a little. I have used lash caps on diff projects and engines over the years maybe a half dozen times. To be honest I it has really never made any significant changes either way.
Some engine builders avoid lash caps like a plague, but why?
I think they definitely serve a purpose, and in some cases save the engine builder a bunch of money.
i have heard horror stories about guys trashing engine or loosing lash caps, but IMO thats not the lash caps fault. If the lash cap is to deep and it pushes against the valve lock, its not the lash caps fault.
Bottom line if these are Isky, or Crane type Ductile type rockers anything from 1 to 3 threads showing will be just fine....
IMO 1 /2 thread is pretty idea...


[color:"red"]65 Hemi Belvedere coming soon [/color]
[color:"#00FF00"]557" Indy engine 1.07 60ft 144mph in the 8th 2100 lbs package [/color]
Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: Bob_Coomer] #775630
08/18/10 12:25 AM
08/18/10 12:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
S
Sport440 Offline
master
Sport440  Offline
master
S

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Oh , No doubt, the geometry is changed by both the adjuster length and a lash cap. The lash cap has a lessor effect,IMO over the adjuster length. Combined they can have a greater effect.

In the scheme of things though I wouldnt use it as a tuning device, Id be more concerned with the best valvetrain strength of the geometry aspects. Shortest adjuster length and best roller sweep over the valves tip. mike

Re: Pushrod length/adjuster threads [Re: Bob_Coomer] #775631
08/18/10 07:09 PM
08/18/10 07:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
I'd like to make a clear distinction in terms.
"irrelevant" (meaning, nothing to do with it) isn't true, all those dimensions affect geometry, lift, wear etc. - the question is in what way, and how much?

"doesn't matter" is actually true in many cases, you get an error but the effect is very small, or 2 errors almost cancel each other out. Sometimes an accidental change corrects an unseen error.

"Push rod length doesnt effect geometry": well, not directly (a fixed length hydraulic pushrod is always "right"), but will if you need more adjuster to make it up.

"how much adjuster is hanging out doesnt affect geometry": it not only changes the ratio (more threads = lower ratio), it changes the angle between the 2 rocker levers (pushrod side and valve side), which is part of the basic rocker design. The rocker's inter-lever angle is the total of the pushrod angle (not the tappet bank angle) and the valve stem angle (15°, 18°, etc.). If the pushrod is 0° (parallel to the cylinder) the angle is just the stem axis. If the lever total changes (as with too many threads), the arc of either the pushrod side, the valve side, or both cannot be centered, and the sweep and scrub increase.

Yes, it's a complicated subject.


Boffin Emeritus
Page 2 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1